Predestination

[JacobHall86]

Yea, thats not Christianity, its moralistic therapeutic deism.

There is no Good in us. Our only spiritual side is rebellion and sin.

 

[&Abel]

Yea, thats not Christianity, its moralistic therapeutic deism.

There is no Good in us. Our only spiritual side is rebellion and sin.

as Bene has said this is completely inconsistent with lived experience

 

[DD2008]

NO not everyone does and that si what you do not get.

Does a born qudraplegic deserve hell Dave, when he has done nothing to offend God?

Does a new born deserve hell?
I have a completely innocent of any malice or evil 12 year autistic son-- doe she deserve hell Dave?

Bene,

Everyone who dies has the guilt of original sin. Only Christ was sinless because his father was God. Original sin is passed to a human through their fathers.

So, what happens to infants and such is left to God it is unrevealed in scripture and all we can do is leave the judgement in his hands. But everytime we bring forth children into this world we give birth to sinners.

A christian parent should baptize their child into the visible church and do their best to teach that child about Christ in the hope that God will use that gospel call to give the child faith. If a child is too young or otherwise disabled at the time of death their fate is left up to the good judgement of God the same way their birth was left up to his judgment and purpose.

I'm sorry to hear about your families trials. I'll pray for you.

David.

 

[DD2008]

Unfortunately for the freewill premise their presentation makes the ABORTIONISTS some of the GREATEST salvation givers on the face of the earth because they kill millions upon millions of unborn children THEREBY ASSURING their salvation.

The Abortionists by THEIR WILLS predestine the unborn by granting the salvation of countless MILLIONS.

You are mistaken here. Abortion is murder. The aborted are in the hands of God. They are stained with original sin or they wouldn't die at all.

Their salvation is in the hands of God, and scripture does not reveal it is assured. We cannot judge them. Who knows what God does with the aborted? He's certainly not pleased with the abortionist.

 

[DD2008]

However, a different approach would be to come to Scripture with a blank slate, without a preexisting mindset, as a juror is charged to consider a court case. An inductive approach like that is probably more conducive to an accurate result.

Dave

I've done that. Did you not read my earlier post?

 

[DD2008]

I'm not blindly defending anything IT IS NOT THE ACCURATE TEACHNG. It is way out of context.

If it were the teaching, I'd tell you but it's not.

Why? Because you're a Catholic and are superior to him theologically?

 

[JacobHall86]

I don't believe god's grace is irrestitable

I think Solomon shows us a prime example of someone refusing god's grace after being blessed by it his whole life

we have no choice but to assume that Solomon did not turn back to god because if he had it would have been included in the scripture

You mean like the end of Ecclesiastes?

Where he did turn back to God?

 

[DD2008]

If I were yer boss I'd be hovering over you about now...

later.

squint

Things are kind of slow. There is a major recession in the country right now, you know. Business isn't very good. You never know I may get laid off soon. Who knows? I've never been laid off before, but as busy as I feel right now I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't happen soon.

We'll just have to see how the economy turns out for everyone. National Semiconductor just yesterday reported that they are going to close the plant in Arlington TX. I used to work with those guys a lot in years past.

I hope everything is well with everyone and we all get through the crunch.

 

[JacobHall86]

as Bene has said this is completely inconsistent with lived experience

No, its not. We only want what we want, we are selfish people and are born under the curse of sin and the law, there is no good in us.

You sir, are a pelagian if you state that man has good in him at birth depsite the fall and imputation of adams sin.

 

[archierieus]

I've done that. Did you not read my earlier post?

Your earlier posts indicated a preexisting mindset, the discovery of a philosophiical approach which harmonized with that mindset, and certain Scriptures which are claimed to support the philosophical approach. And that is consistent with the religion. Calvinism is at heart a philosophical position, quoting Scriptures in support of that position.

And that is the absolute right of the adherents of a philosophy or a religion. Just don't claim to be "the ones" following the Bible, or sola scriptura, or anything like that. Be above-board and acknowledge that this is a philosophy which appeals to you, and here are some Scriptures which you think support it.

 

[DD2008]

Your earlier posts indicated a preexisting mindset, the discovery of a philosophiical approach which harmonized with that mindset, and certain Scriptures which are claimed to support the philosophical approach. And that is consistent with the religion. Calvinism is at heart a philosophical position, quoting Scriptures in support of that position.

And that is the absolute right of the adherents of a philosophy or a religion. Just don't claim to be "the ones" following the Bible, or sola scriptura, or anything like that. Be above-board and acknowledge that this is a philosophy which appeals to you, and here are some Scriptures which you think support it.

Actually, the Southern Baptist position is what I was taught as a child. Agnosticism is what I chose because I wanted to sin as much as possible without being told I was going to hell for it. Roman Catholicism is what I chose later because I had no faith and was scared of hell and thought that their system was a good bet for fire insurance.

Calvinism is what I agree with based on the fact that I am reborn thanks to God and that I have been compelled to study the scriptures in detail to learn about him.

I firmly believe that scripture supports the calvinist position. My personal belief is that the Presbyterian system is the most error free of all the Christian disciplines within the Universal Church. So, I support the Presbyterians.

 

[&Abel]

You mean like the end of Ecclesiastes?

Where he did turn back to God?

where exactly does it say that? I'm not seeing it

I'm gonna read some of Solomon to see if it mentions it there

 

[&Abel]

nope didn't see anything there either (but I only skimmed)

 

[archierieus]

Calvinism is what I agree with based on the fact that I am reborn thanks to God

Thus you had a spiritual experience, and based on that spiritual experience you believe in Calvinism. Ditto for the Mormons--why they beleive in Mormonism.

and that I have been compelled to study the scriptures in detail to learn about him.

With your particular mindset, as you have indicated. The mindset rules, the Scriptures appear to give support to it. And this is by no means unique to any one individual. It is quite typical.

I firmly believe that scripture supports the calvinist position. My personal belief is that the Presbyterian system is the most error free of all the Christian disciplines within the Universal Church. So, I support the Presbyterians.

And so, hundreds of millions of Christians believe that their church is the most error free. Quite subjective.

 

[&Abel]

Actually, the Southern Baptist position is what I was taught as a child. Agnosticism is what I chose because I wanted to sin as much as possible without being told I was going to hell for it. Roman Catholicism is what I chose later because I had no faith and was scared of hell and thought that their system was a good bet for fire insurance.

Calvinism is what I agree with based on the fact that I am reborn thanks to God and that I have been compelled to study the scriptures in detail to learn about him.

I firmly believe that scripture supports the calvinist position. My personal belief is that the Presbyterian system is the most error free of all the Christian disciplines within the Universal Church. So, I support the Presbyterians.

whole lotta choosing there

do you think the catholic church is devoid of god?

 

[&Abel]

by your theory shouldn't all men be drawn to the same theological position

shouldn't we all naturally gravitate towards calvinism when we lose our choice?

 

[nobdysfool]

Pretty far afield of the subject of the thread.....

 

[Albion]

Actually, the Southern Baptist position is what I was taught as a child. Agnosticism is what I chose because I wanted to sin as much as possible without being told I was going to hell for it. Roman Catholicism is what I chose later because I had no faith and was scared of hell and thought that their system was a good bet for fire insurance.

Calvinism is what I agree with based on the fact that I am reborn thanks to God and that I have been compelled to study the scriptures in detail to learn about him.

I firmly believe that scripture supports the calvinist position. My personal belief is that the Presbyterian system is the most error free of all the Christian disciplines within the Universal Church. So, I support the Presbyterians.

Right on. It's interesting to note that Evangelical Anglicans usually attend Presbyterian worship services when there are no churches of their own kind nearby.

 

[&Abel]

does not the fact that we are arguing this and have different opinions while attempting to follow the same god prove that we have choice?

if the same Spirit was taking control in all believers we would all be identical in beliefs

there must be something besides the Spirit involved, because the Spirit seeks unity

 

[&Abel]

but those same sheep are scattered and are not in agreement which proves that while the Spirit is involved in our lives it does not have complete control

we have to work with it