Predestination

[heymikey80]

UBS 4th ed. text as follows:

ψυχικὸς δὲ ἄνθρωπος οὐ δέχεται . . .

Very simple grammatically. Nom. masc. sing. psuchikos pertaining to the sensuous or worldly, Louw-Nida renders it 'worldly-minded.' ou dechetai, to receive favorably, to welcome. Speaking of realities, I for one have indeed met just such individuals. They are caught up in the things of the world, and do not welcome spiritual considerations.

It makes sense. In this concept Paul would be saying that the judgment of a spiritual concept would be, "It's crazy", to a soul-al (it's so hard to dance around English words using psyche) judge.

The spiritual aspects wouldn't be accounted for. And no, I'm not wedded to the idea that this is absence of information, in fact I'd tend toward the opposite -- that the person would recognize the spiritual way of thinking -- he'd just think it was crazy and thus not real. Still, he might not pursue spiritual ideas to their conclusion. And that might be part of the point Paul mentions. He'd certainly be able to comprehend where it came from -- at arm's length from the reality of it.

 

[Benefactor]

just to give an example of what people of today are feeling

I think some people in this thread are completely clueless to the pain that some of us have gone through(and are going through), and your doctrine is fueling the fire

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYLIJrKzeJU

I believe you are correct. The heart of a true believer sympathizes and some empathize in the most real and caring way because they have the mind of Christ.

True meaning in life is only found in Christ. Because you have brought this to our attention it may be that God's is calling / directing you to take the Gospel to them, to be a missionary to the area of need.

 

[heymikey80]

just to give an example of what people of today are feeling

I think some people in this thread are completely clueless to the pain that some of us have gone through(and are going through), and your doctrine is fueling the fire

woohoo, Flyleaf!

I know it's not new. I've undergone this pain a number of times (and those who know my real name can check it out firsthand with a short google).

Frankly, I've drawn friendly fire apparently more often than might first appear. It's not the position that's the problem. It's the personal conflict. That can often be handled better, it's true.

When we really operate from the standpoint of Total Inability, "We Are All Wrong", Calvin's teaching itself clarifies into something radically opposed to doctrinal whirlpools of suffocation.

 

[archierieus]

It makes sense. In this concept Paul would be saying that the judgment of a spiritual concept would be, "It's crazy", to a soul-al (it's so hard to dance around English words using psyche) judge.

The spiritual aspects wouldn't be accounted for. And no, I'm not wedded to the idea that this is absence of information, in fact I'd tend toward the opposite -- that the person would recognize the spiritual way of thinking -- he'd just think it was crazy and thus not real. Still, he might not pursue spiritual ideas to their conclusion. And that might be part of the point Paul mentions. He'd certainly be able to comprehend where it came from -- at arm's length from the reality of it.

I am in agreement with you here, indeed, it is quite clear from the text and I appreciate your accuracy and adherence to Scripture as it reads here.

Dave

 

[heymikey80]

I am in agreement with you here, indeed, it is quite clear from the text and I appreciate your accuracy and adherence to Scripture as it reads here.

So to the next point -- and directed at archierieus, too will the soul-al person stop to recognize the reality of spiritual thinking without being spiritual himself? Or put another way, will he change ideas of what's real, before he has a change of heart?

 

[archierieus]

So to the next point -- and directed at archierieus, too will the soul-al person stop to recognize the reality of spiritual thinking without being spiritual himself? Or put another way, will he change ideas of what's real, before he has a change of heart?

Very interesting and important question. 'Change of heart,' what is meant by that term? Change of priorities? Born again? Or what? In real-life terms, a person may be totally uninterested in spiritual things until the day, for example, he recognizes his mortality, or has a close call, and it is a wake-up call to him. His priorities change so that now he is interested in spiritual things, but he does not yet have a 'new heart' as described in the Bible, as that takes place when he dies to the old life by a conscious decision to give his life to Christ. He has not yet reached that point, but he is now open to spiritual considerations.

What do you think of that?

Dave

 

[heymikey80]

Very interesting and important question. 'Change of heart,' what is meant by that term? Change of priorities? Born again? Or what? In real-life terms, a person may be totally uninterested in spiritual things until the day, for example, he recognizes his mortality, or has a close call, and it is a wake-up call to him. His priorities change so that now he is interested in spiritual things, but he does not yet have a 'new heart' as described in the Bible, as that takes place when he dies to the old life by a conscious decision to give his life to Christ. He has not yet reached that point, but he is now open to spiritual considerations.

What do you think of that?

Well, Scripture still maintains such a person is not open to the reality of spiritual considerations (1 Cor 2:14). I've known plenty of people who are at that point of wanting more than physical reality can give, and who simply don't turn to spirituality as a reality. Spirituality is still crazy to them. (1 Cor 1:18) Someone's priorities can't change toward what he thinks is not real. (1 Cor 2:8) The endpoint of reality for someone who excludes spirituality, doesn't force the person to conclude spirituality exists.

And soul-al considerations are still the deciding issue for people who aren't spiritual. The closest I've ever seen for someone like this, is that they see some kind of soul-al benefit -- lovejoypeacepatience, something they accept as sensual pleasance -- among people who are spiritual. That doesn't make them spiritual, though. In fact it only makes them agreeable. They explain such things as futile imaginations, self-deception that they can't concur in. People don't justify the ends with the means. The means must be real, or the benefits are deceptive and suspicious.

As far as I can determine, Scripture doesn't place spirituality within someone who is unbelieving. It does place religiousness there; good works; ethics. It even places fleshly thinking within new believers (1 Cor 3:1; Rom 8:12). But it doesn't place spiritual thinking as acceptable to the soul-al person. This person does not receive things from the Spirit (1 Cor 2:14).

So what the soul-al person has at best are pipe dreams -- fond wishes for a reality they don't think exists. And that's at best.

As for a change of heart, Scripture points to changes of heart brought on by His Spirit (Rom 2:29, 2 Cor 3:3, Heb 10:16,22). I'm sure there are other responses of the heart. But I would be reluctant to expect multiple different kinds of heart changes involved with conversion, though. It seems to be an event in the New Testament. So a particular kind of heart change occurs in conversion. Other changes or even attractions of the heart do indeed occur both before and after conversion. Those will probably take time to observe, but again, I don't see them as the heart change at conversion. That would make God react not to real heart change into spiritual life -- it'd put Him responding to impulses and vicissitudes, right? I have seen much more absolute language being placed in Scripture when it comes to people's reception and reliance on Christ.