Predestination

[JacobHall86]

There seems to be differing opinions about what Predestination is. What is it?

Remember, keep the posts short, so people will read them.

 

[chestertonrules]

There seems to be differing opinions about what Predestination is. What is it?

Remember, keep the posts short, so people will read them.

Our destiny is already known to God.

From his perspective, it is like it has already occurred.

 

[&Abel]

Our destiny is already known to God.

From his perspective, it is like it has already occurred.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

.


In common Christian usage, Predestination is the philosophical school of Determinism limited to soteriology. It's a view among some Calvinists that God choose a few for heaven and most for hell - and that is the sole reason, cause, for why a few are headed for heaven and most are headed for hell. He is equally pleased and gloried by those who are blessed by heaven and who are cursed in hell.



Here's what I believe...


Read ALL the verses below (ALL of them - as an inseparable set), adding or substracting nothing from them.


John 3:16, "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

John 1:29, "John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, Look, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world."

1 John 2:2, "Jesus is the atoning sacrificie for our sins, and not only for ours but for the sins of the entire world."

Titus 2:4, "God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth."

2 Peter 3:9, "God does not want anyone to perish."

Matthew 23:37, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who killed the prophets and stones thsoe sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your childen together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

Luke 7:30, "The Pharisees rejected God's purpose for them."

Acts 13:46, "Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: We had to speak the Word of God to you first, but since you rejected it , we now turn to the Gentiles."

Mark 16:15-16, "Jesus said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the Gospel gto all people. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Romans 3:23, "God justifies him who has faith in Christ."

Acts 2:21, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Acts 16:30-31, "He asked, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?' They replied, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved'."

1 Corinthians 12:3, "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except as empowered by the Holy Spirit."

1 Corinthians 2:14, "The one without the Spirit does not accept the things that are from the Spirit, for he cannot."

Romans 6:23, "...the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus."

Romans 3:23-24, "For all fall short and so are justified freely by God's grace through the redemption that came by Christ."

Ephesians 2:8, "It is by grace that you have been saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God."

2 Timothy 1:9, "God saved us and called us because of His own purpose and grace."

Acts 13:48, "... all who were appointed for eternal life believed."

Ephesians 1:3-6, "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blesssing in Christ. For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blamelsess in His sight. In love, He predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the One He loves."

Romans 8:28-31, "We know that in all things God works for good to those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called, and those He called, He also justified and those He justified, He also glorified. What, then, shall we say? Since God is for us, what can be against us?"



Some thoughts....


1. I believe that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ (Sola Gratia/Solus Christus/ Sola Fide/ Soli Deo Gloria). This is ONE doctrine, ONE truth. Inseparable. In that sense, justification is conditional and thus it is a matter not entirely of God's primary/unconditional will but is a matter of God's secondary/conditional will. Taken into account is God's atoning work in Christ and our faith in such. Justification, as applied to the individiual, looks not ONLY at God's grace and heart but also at Christ and our faith in Him.


2. The Doctrine of Election is presented in Scipture as GOSPEL. It's purpose is always to comfort, assure and strengthen. It becomes difficult when it is twisted upside down and inside out, applied backwards, as, IMHO, is what happens in the Doctrine of Predestination. Election is presented in Scripture as Gospel. When I was a little boy, I remember loving to hear my mom tell of before I was born. She'd stress to me how much she and Dad loved me. How they prayed often every day for me. How my mom sang to me, even read stories to me. How she was so careful about what she ate and did. She told me how they prepared the nursery for me and how they had to paint it yellow because the doctors disagreed on whether I was a boy or girl. She'd go on and on - and I hung on every word. And all the while, I was VERY aware that she didn't know a thing about me - I wasn't even born yet! I had "earned" NONE of this. She didn't know that I would be this incredibly handsome, smart, good, successful and wonderful person. And frankly, it didn't matter. All this love was not something I earned, it was just something I received. And, looking back, I think why I so often wanted to hear all that, is that it assured me that that love was dependable and constant. If I got very sick (and I did), that love would not deminish. If...... that love would not deminish. THAT is always the underlying purpose and point of this doctrine. It is pure GOSPEL. It is abused, IMHO, when it is turned inside out, upside down, twisted 360 degrees, to suggest that Mom therefore hates all other children and wishes they would all eternally burn. Gospel should not be made Law, nor Law made Gospel.


3. It seems to me, God calls us to be stewards of the mysteries of God. He never called us to try to apply our sinful, fallen, limited logic to try to make God seem logical or to answer all our own questions and require God to agree with us. "I understand this like this...." is one thing. "It is dogma" is a wholly other matter. I think it was John Wesley that said, "We are to speak where Scripture speaks and be silent where Scripture is silent." That, of course, can be taken too far but I think there's some wisdom in that humility. My grandfather (a retired pastor): "Humility is the foundation of all good theology."



MY perspective....



Pax


- Josiah



.

 

[DD2008]

What is predestination? - R. C. Sproul

"When the Bible speaks of predestination, it speaks of God's sovereign involvement in certain things before they happen. He chooses in advance certain things to take place. For example, he predestined creation. Before God created the world, he decided to do it.

Usually when people think of predestination, they think about whether or not somebody was hit by an automobile on a given day because God had decided ahead of time that that should happen on that day.

Theologically, the principal issue of predestination in the Bible has to do with God selecting people for salvation beforehand. The Bible clearly does teach that somehow God chooses people for salvation before they're even born. Virtually every Christian church believes that, because this concept is so clearly taught in Scripture.

Paul refers to Jacob and Esau. Before they were even born, before they had done any good or evil, God decreed in advance that the elder would serve the younger: "Jacob have I loved; Esau have I hated." The point there is that God had chosen certain benefits for one of those two before they were even born.

The real debate is, On what basis does God predestine? We know that he predestines, but why does he predestine, and what is the basis for his choices? Many Christians believe that God knows in advance what people are going to do, what choices they're going to make, and what activities they're going to be involved in. As he looks through the corridor of time and knows what choices you will make, for example, he knows that you will hear the gospel. He knows whether you will say yes or no. If he knows that you are going to say yes, then he chooses you for salvation on the basis of his prior knowledge. I don't hold that position. I think that God does this sovereignly, not arbitrarily, not whimsically. The only basis I see for predestination in the Bible is the good pleasure of his own will. The only other reason is to honor his only begotten Son. The reason for his selection is not in me and not in you and not in some foreseen good or evil, but in his own sovereignty."

Link: http://www.glenwoodhills.org/etc/printer-friendly.asp?ID=426

 

[chestertonrules]

What is predestination? - R. C. Sproul

"When the Bible speaks of predestination, it speaks of God's sovereign involvement in certain things before they happen. He chooses in advance certain things to take place. For example, he predestined creation. Before God created the world, he decided to do it.

Usually when people think of predestination, they think about whether or not somebody was hit by an automobile on a given day because God had decided ahead of time that that should happen on that day.

Theologically, the principal issue of predestination in the Bible has to do with God selecting people for salvation beforehand. The Bible clearly does teach that somehow God chooses people for salvation before they're even born. Virtually every Christian church believes that, because this concept is so clearly taught in Scripture.

Paul refers to Jacob and Esau. Before they were even born, before they had done any good or evil, God decreed in advance that the elder would serve the younger: "Jacob have I loved; Esau have I hated." The point there is that God had chosen certain benefits for one of those two before they were even born.

The real debate is, On what basis does God predestine? We know that he predestines, but why does he predestine, and what is the basis for his choices? Many Christians believe that God knows in advance what people are going to do, what choices they're going to make, and what activities they're going to be involved in. As he looks through the corridor of time and knows what choices you will make, for example, he knows that you will hear the gospel. He knows whether you will say yes or no. If he knows that you are going to say yes, then he chooses you for salvation on the basis of his prior knowledge. I don't hold that position. I think that God does this sovereignly, not arbitrarily, not whimsically. The only basis I see for predestination in the Bible is the good pleasure of his own will. The only other reason is to honor his only begotten Son. The reason for his selection is not in me and not in you and not in some foreseen good or evil, but in his own sovereignty."

Link: http://www.glenwoodhills.org/etc/printer-friendly.asp?ID=426

The bible is quite explicit on this matter:

1 Peter 1

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

 

[DD2008]

The bible is quite explicit on this matter:

1 Peter 1

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

It doesn't say what his forknowledge entails. What if he chose an elect just because he forknew that choice would glorify HIm?

 

[archierieus]

Our destiny is already known to God.

From his perspective, it is like it has already occurred.

Agreed. The word predestined does not occur in that form in the original BTW. The Gk. actually is prooraw which literally means to see ahead, pro =before + oraw=to see. God sees what will happen ahead of time, and based upon that seeing ahead, that prognosis (Gk. word) He treats it as if it were already done.

Dave

 

[squint]

There seems to be differing opinions about what Predestination is. What is it?

Remember, keep the posts short, so people will read them.

Well, there is this really big wheel in heaven, you know, where God Is, and everyones name is written on that wheel...

And THEN God gives it a spin, and whoevers name is between the nails on the wheel where the peg is at the top where it stops, then those are the lucky salvation winners and their name goes into the book of LIFE.

BUT everyone who's name is still on the wheel at judgment day, God nails them on the wheel, you know, where their name is, and puts that big wheel and them into the Lake of Fire and never stops spinning it for ever and ever...and everybody else gets to watch it spinning forever and ever. (Rev. 14:10-11)

 

[chestertonrules]

It doesn't say what his forknowledge entails. What if he chose an elect just because he forknew that choice would glorify HIm?

It tells us in other places who he will choose and why:

Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

Matt 7 21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

1 Peter 1 17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

 

[DD2008]

(Rev. 14:10-11)

That's pretty vivid.

 

[JacobHall86]

Well, there is this really big wheel in heaven, you know, where God Is, and everyones name is written on that wheel...

And THEN God gives it a spin, and whoevers name is between the nails on the wheel where the peg is at the top where it stops, then those are the lucky salvation winners and their name goes into the book of LIFE.

BUT everyone who's name is still on the wheel at judgment day, God nails them on the wheel, you know, where their name is, and puts that big wheel and them into the Lake of Fire and never stops spinning it for ever and ever...and everybody else gets to watch it spinning forever and ever. (Rev. 14:10-11)

Everyone else gave thought out answers that contributed to the discussion. You did not, why?

 

[squint]

It tells us in other places who he will choose and why:

Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

Matt 7 21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

1 Peter 1 17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

Oh, yeah. IF you have Jesus painted across your lips THEN God FORGETS all the bad works that YOU do. And God REWARDS YOU for all the GOOD WORKS YOU do.

But,

IF you fail to paint JESUS across your lips...THEN
God REMEMBERS only all the BAD WORKS you do, and FORGETS all the good works you do and burns you alive forever and ever.

Amen

 

[boswd]

.

 

[squint]

Everyone else gave thought out answers that contributed to the discussion. You did not, why?

God makes a selection. That selection is as far as we can tell PURELY RANDOM, unless you have some other suggestion. I think my portrayal is a 'general' portrayal of Gods Random Action PLAN of Salvation.

If you have another GUESS, please, by all means share. And by all means do not attempt to say I did not put an idea in play because I did.

enjoy!

squint

 

[chestertonrules]

Oh, yeah. IF you have Jesus painted across your lips THEN God FORGETS all the bad works that YOU do. And God REWARDS YOU for all the GOOD WORKS YOU do.

But,

IF you fail to paint JESUS across your lips...THEN
God REMEMBERS only all the BAD WORKS you do, and FORGETS all the good works you do and burns you alive forever and ever.

Amen

That has no relevance to the scriptures I posted.

 

[squint]

That's pretty vivid.

I'm glad somebody appreciated it...

 

[squint]

That has no relevance to the scriptures I posted.

Please tell me that it's NOT an accurate rendition of YOUR Gospel.

 

[archierieus]

burns you alive forever and ever.

Amen

Just a note of observation. This seems to be a recurring issue and concern which you somehow manage to bring into EVERY discussion thread. Why not START a thread about this very evident concern you have, and allow the other discussions to continue on their own tracks?

Dave

 

[DD2008]

It tells us in other places who he will choose and why:

Romans 2:6-7

"For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

This doesn't mean salvation is according to works. It means that the Judgement and heavenly reward is according to works. salvation is clearly by grace alone as is stated in Ephesians 2:8-9. Scripture doesn't contradict itself so it must all be taken into consideration before a conclusion is reached.

Matt 7 21"

Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Some claim they are saved because of their works but in reality they have never received saving grace and never really loved God. Because they never could submit to His soverignty without judgeing him.

1 Peter 1 17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

Again. You're problem is you don't separate salvation from works. You are rewarded in heaven for your works. You are saved only by God's grace and your works can do nothing for you in regards to salvation.