Demoic Possession - Your Opinion

[BeforeTheFoundation]

At a pinch I would say the treatment of those who were accepted as mentall ill wasn't much different from those thought to be possessed.

The difference was, when people finally admitted that there was such a thing as mental illness, the treatments, however horrendous they may seem, were actually meant to help the individual. Demon possession on the other hand sets up a false dichotomy between us (the faithful) and the demon possessed person (someone who has been communing with the Devil) As such, the primary goal is no longer to help the individual but instead to protect the community from the dark arts. As someone who is constantly aware of people judging me for my odd behavior, I can only imagine what it would be like if people assumed I was demon possessed instead of just 'weird'.

Possession is a last resort diagnosis, it's not a label we should slap on lightly. But then again the same could be said for sociopathy.

But the difference is: Sociopathy actually has symptoms that distinguish it from other things. As I have said repeatedly, so called demon possessions can more easily be explained by natural causes. 'demon possession' really isn't a diagnosis, it is a catch all superstitious explanation that seeks to explain the world in a Gnostic like dichotomy of good verses evil.

Off the top of my head I would say the main 'symptom' that seperates possession from other mental illnesses is that the victims does bad things, but is upset by them and feels unable to control them.

This is a bad criterion because there are some disorders (in fact some variants of my own illness, though I do not suffer from this exact problem) where the individual feels compelled to do things against his or her conscience. However, as said before these impulses can easily be traced to chemical imbalances, and can often be successfully treated by fixing those imbalances.

Imjcs does have a point. I know I'm repeating myself but another trait that seperates possession from natural sickness is that possession does not happen by accident. It doesn't strike it's victim for no apparent reason. People at risk of possession are often the ones who were dabbling in the occult.

I guess my concern with this is not so much the validity of the statement (you know that I disagree ) but what the outcome of this belief is. Supposing there is someone that is naturally mentally ill. He or she is declared to be demon possessed accidentally (it turns out that there is a natural explanation from mental illness either because there really are no demon possessions or because this particular person was 'misdiagnosed'). However, because this poor soul is assumed to be demon possessed, an innocent person is accused of witchcraft. I recognize that this is not an argument against the assertion that demon possession is caused by communing with evil spirits (though I beleive that by arguing against demon possession in general I am also arguing against this) but I am simply concerned about the outcome of this belief.

The "God of gaps" problem could be solved if we could find a demon. How to go about doing that is a much more difficult manner.

Well, in fairness, I will resist the temptation to make an argument from silence.

Mental health is a relatively new thing but we have the understanding to be able to identify those illnesses described now.

And this is key. I can understand resorting to demonology in regards to strange behavior in humans before the modern era but now that we have a better fit it is time that we accept the realities of this world.

Yes, just as Jesus taught in parables and used beliefs of the audience in the story to make a point, so is the case with the possessions.

The influence of Greek thought lead to a belief in demons that was not present in OT Israel.

As an OT scholar I am very glad to see you say this.

Originally all demons were once angels, making them messengers. Part of their job was to test humans (including tempting them). After the Fall - the story of how the angel Lucifer became satan - demons no longer use their traits to better humanity, but use them to distort out thinking.

In an effort not to derail the thread, simply realize that I (and I believe k2svpete) have a different understanding of those OT passages. Namely that the original meaning had nothing to do with demons and devils (the Isaiah passage commonly believed to be about the fall of Satan is probably talking about an enemy king). Again, if we get into this too much it will derail the thread but in all fairness it seems necessary to get out in the open our respective believes on that.

If you are interested, I have posted more extensively on Isaiah 14 in other threads like this one. I was pretty sure I posted more than that elsewhere but I cannot seem to find it.

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

I want to point out that where humans once blamed demons for too much, including sneezes, they now too often dismiss even the possiblity of demons or spiritual problems being at the root.

How can you be sure that the 'demon possessions' of today will not have as simple an explanation as sneezes do?

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

The difference was, when people finally admitted that there was such a thing as mental illness, the treatments, however horrendous they may seem, were actually meant to help the individual. Demon possession on the other hand sets up a false dichotomy between us (the faithful) and the demon possessed person (someone who has been communing with the Devil)

True. Hopefully today (because the diagnosis of 'possession' is rare or seen as a relic of the past) the political side is dead. And let's face it, it usually is political.

This is a bad criterion because there are some disorders (in fact some variants of my own illness, though I do not suffer from this exact problem) where the individual feels compelled to do things against his or her conscience. However, as said before these impulses can easily be traced to chemical imbalances, and can often be successfully treated by fixing those imbalances.

I'm no doctor (well obviously . . .) but I mentioned that particular symptom - doing something they know is wrong but feel they cannot help it - differs from other behavioural abnormalities. For example:

• Psychopath: commits bad acts but feels no remorse
• Autism: commits bad acts unable to understand how others feel
• Schizophrenic: blames the voices (some accept the voices 'belong' to them, some don't)
• MPS: blames the act on their other personalities, who they consider other people.

Vague examples I know, but like I said I'm no doctor. But I also think a natural illness that would share the 'possession' syndrome are tic disorders.

However, because this poor soul is assumed to be demon possessed, an innocent person is accused of witchcraft. I recognize that this is not an argument against the assertion that demon possession is caused by communing with evil spirits (though I beleive that by arguing against demon possession in general I am also arguing against this) but I am simply concerned about the outcome of this belief.

That was certainly a problem a few centuries ago - and still is in some African countries.
Perhaps the skepticism towards possession is a good thing. Today exorcisms are generally not as aggressive as they once were (although supposedly they still strap victims down). There are also always videocameras present, for legal reasons.
Even if you believe in possession, treating them using beatings and abuse would be no use - breaking and possibly killing the person is what the demon wants.

There is something I should mention about people who become possessed: they themselves are not evil people. On the contrary, they are often very good people who have made a big mistake.
This makes sense from the demon's point of view (I know, I know, bear with me). The vast majority of people are bad all by themselves. It makes more sense to attack and disable those who are potentially very good, kind people. They are the real threats.

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

I'm no doctor (well obviously . . .) but I mentioned that particular symptom - doing something they know is wrong but feel they cannot help it - differs from other behavioural abnormalities. For example:

• Psychopath: commits bad acts but feels no remorse
• Autism: commits bad acts unable to understand how others feel
• Schizophrenic: blames the voices (some accept the voices 'belong' to them, some don't)
• MPS: blames the act on their other personalities, who they consider other people.

Some people suffering from Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, the illness that I have though I do not have this symptom, compulsively do actions they know to be wrong because they cannot help themselves. Some cannot help but touch other people in ways that are often deemed inappropriate (this is usually not about sex in the mind of the sufferer, it is about the tactile feel of people, usually associated with softness, hence a sufferer will often target someone's hair or skin even more awkwardly, it is often appears as if they are aiming at females as they tend to be softer). Others cannot help but have extremely sexual thoughts about people. They recognise that this is wrong and yet cannot do anything about it.

But I also think a natural illness that would share the 'possession' syndrome are tic disorders.

Wait, are you saying Tourette's and similar problems are caused by a demon?

That was certainly a problem a few centuries ago - and still is in some African countries.
Perhaps the skepticism towards possession is a good thing. Today exorcisms are generally not as aggressive as they once were (although supposedly they still strap victims down). There are also always videocameras present, for legal reasons.
Even if you believe in possession, treating them using beatings and abuse would be no use - breaking and possibly killing the person is what the demon wants.

But my concern is not only that the exorcism itself be humane (which would obviously be important). My concern is that because a demon has been invoked as the cause psychological help would not be sought.

 

[k2svpete]

Yes, BTF. I believe we are of the same mind on this subject and the origins of the current doctrines.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Wait, are you saying Tourette's and similar problems are caused by a demon?

No, I'm saying they share the same symptom.
See, the only symptom I mention that tried to seperate possession from natural mental illness was "Doing something they know to be wrong but feeling unable to help it." Psychopaths, autistics and those with MPS have similar but different traits. But those with OCD and tourettes have this 'possession' symptom.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting people with OCD or tics disorders are possessed. I was trying to think of people who have the 'possession syndrome' who are naturally ill. I know this would probably discredit the idea that possession is real, but having never seen or met a possessed person there would be little point in trying to prove that it is.

My concern is that because a demon has been invoked as the cause psychological help would not be sought.

You needn't worry about that. Both long before and long after the exorcism takes place the patient has lots of therapy. Did you expect the exorcists, after expelling the demon, to say "Well you're cured now - next!"

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

Yes, BTF. I believe we are of the same mind on this subject and the origins of the current doctrines.

Indeed.

No, I'm saying they share the same symptom.
See, the only symptom I mention that tried to seperate possession from natural mental illness was "Doing something they know to be wrong but feeling unable to help it." Psychopaths, autistics and those with MPS have similar but different traits. But those with OCD and tourettes have this 'possession' symptom.

Ah, now I understand what you are saying. Obviously I still disagree because I don't believe that any of this is possession, but I understand your comment.

I know this would probably discredit the idea that possession is real

Indeed, I believe it does.

You needn't worry about that. Both long before and long after the exorcism takes place the patient has lots of therapy. Did you expect the exorcists, after expelling the demon, to say "Well you're cured now - next!"

I know that 'mainstream' exorcisms would. For instance those in the Catholic Church (a Church that I very much like and have considered joining) treat exorcisms with the utmost care. I am more concerned with less... reputable exorcisms. Again, I realise that this does not, by any stretch of the imagination argue against the existence of demonic possession. This is just a side concern.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

I am more concerned with less... reputable exorcisms. Again, I realise that this does not, by any stretch of the imagination argue against the existence of demonic possession. This is just a side concern.

Yes . . . the sensationalist nature surrounding possession hinders alot of legitimate study about it. Quacks and so-called mediums thrive on this.
Perhaps if we try to think of possession in a level-headed way (insted seeing it as fodder for "the battle between science and religion" and other emotive nonsense) it will slowly go away. Slowly.

I think the main proble about possession isn't so much how the patients will be treated, or even how to deal with the demons (if they do exist then the church has been dealing with them for centuries).
I think the main problem is trying to distinguish it from natural illnesses. Unless we can actually find a demon it'll be hard for us to understand how they work. Besides, very few sensible people who understand spirituality would ever want to find one.

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

I think the main problem is trying to distinguish it from natural illnesses.

Well, as much as I absolutely and fundamentally disagree with your position that some mental illnesses are actually demon possessions, I am extremely glad that you at least are concerned with things like this.

 

[bling]

I believe God can not directly hurt an innocent person but allows satan and demons to hurt the innocent. So all illnesses of the innocent is demon related. That does not mean humans should not use what is available to them to cure the sick, hurting and mentally ill. That is an “opportunity” provided us, and in keeping with the need for faith over sight God will allow people to be healed by physical means. Any needy person is an opportunity God has allowed (It really hurts God to have to allow the innocent to hurt so these opportunities can be there for us). Opportunities in the form of needy people (like the half dead man on the side of the road) allows for the experience of Godly type Love; to see, receive, give, and express Godly type love. This is to help those that have not accepted God’s Love in the form of forgiveness to accept that Love and it also helps those that have accepted God’s Love to grow that Love with use.

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

allows satan and demons to hurt the innocent.

This does not follow from this...

I believe God can not directly hurt an innocent person

Mental illness like all illness and pain are caused from the Fall. Why invoke demons? What proof is there of this?

That does not mean humans should not use what is available to them to cure the sick, hurting and mentally ill.

At least we can agree on this.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Actually demon possession was a separate and distinct malady from other disorders as this verse shows:

Matthew 4:24

"And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them."

owg

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Well, as much as I absolutely and fundamentally disagree with your position that some mental illnesses are actually demon possessions, I am extremely glad that you at least are concerned with things like this.

Not quite. See normal mental illness is caused by the person - perhaps their brains are abnormally wired, or their thinking is distorted or they inflicted it on themselves. The person themselves is the root of the illness.

Possession on the other hand is caused by the demon mimicing the symptoms of mental illness. In other words, mental illness is the diagnosis when it is natural, but mental illness is the symptom when it's a result of possession. Do you see what I mean?

I believe God can not directly hurt an innocent person but allows satan and demons to hurt the innocent. So all illnesses of the innocent is demon related. That does not mean humans should not use what is available to them to cure the sick, hurting and mentally ill. That is an “opportunity” provided us, and in keeping with the need for faith over sight God will allow people to be healed by physical means

I disagree (I seem to disagree with alot of things . . .) because this suggests that God is either impotent or useless. That he either can't or won't help us. Ultimately God does help us, especially with possession, but we must always have the will to help others ourselves, otherwise what's the point?

Matthew 4:24

"And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them."

That's a very good point. BeyondTheFoundation mention a point of view earlier (accomadationalism) which suggested that Jesus was pandering to the view of his day that natural mental illness was caused by demons. I don't think this is true for two reasons:

1. Jesus never pandered to public opinion. That's why they killed him.
2. Matthew 4:24 suggests that even back then they could (somehow) distinguish between natural illness, both mental and physical, and possession.

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

Not quite. See normal mental illness is caused by the person - perhaps their brains are abnormally wired, or their thinking is distorted or they inflicted it on themselves. The person themselves is the root of the illness.

Yes, I see what you are saying. This is actually what I meant to describe. Sorry for misrepresenting your views. I still disagree though.

In other words, mental illness is the diagnosis when it is natural, but mental illness is the symptom when it's a result of possession.

Ummm... I don't think this is what you meant to say.

1. Jesus never pandered to public opinion. That's why they killed him.

I disagree. (though I wouldn't use the word 'pandered' because of the negative connotation). Jesus very much spoke to the people at the point where they were. He was distinctively a first century Jew that spoke and acted as such. He acted and spoke like many many notable Jews that came before him (most notably Hillel whom he actually comes very close to quoting on several occasions). Jesus talked to the people in words that they understood and in paradigms in which they were familiar. It was what he said (and did, most notably the 'treasonous' act of overthrowing the Temple) that got him killed.

And to this...

Actually demon possession was a separate and distinct malady from other disorders as this verse shows:

and this...

2. Matthew 4:24 suggests that even back then they could (somehow) distinguish between natural illness, both mental and physical, and possession.

I have to disagree once more. Looking at the Greek, the word in question is seleniazomenous. The 'menous' is just an ending telling us person and tense so the real word in question is eleniazomai. This word literally means to "be moonstruck" (compare to the noun selene meaning 'moon'). Instead of 'lunatic' many scholars suggest that it is probably better to understand this as a form of epilepsy. (a. la

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I have to disagree once more. Looking at the Greek, the word in question is seleniazomenous. The 'menous' is just an ending telling us person and tense so the real word in question is eleniazomai. This word literally means to "be moonstruck" (compare to the noun selene meaning 'moon'). Instead of 'lunatic' many scholars suggest that it is probably better to understand this as a form of epilepsy. (a. la

This is true, but it wasn't attributed to demons. They made a connection (albeit false) to the appearance of the moon, believing this triggered the disorder. It was still held to be different from demon possession.

The are many other sicknesses and disorders mentioned as well: Lameness, blindness, leprosy, and the woman's menstral bleeding disorder come to mind. None of these have demon connections. In one case a man was held lame by God so that his later healing would publically glorify Him.

owg

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

This is true, but it wasn't attributed to demons. They made a connection (albeit false) to the appearance of the moon, believing this triggered the disorder. It was still held to be different from demon possession.

This is precisely what I am saying. Epilepsy was neither attributed to demons nor was it considered insanity.

None of these have demon connections.

I am not claiming that all diseases in the ancient world were considered to be demons. I am claiming that it is possible (note my first post I believe it was) that what we call insanity today was called demon possession in the ANE through the process of accomadationalism. This does not mean that they had to believe that all diseases were caused by demons. As you (and I) point out, epilepsy was considered to be related to the moon.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Jesus talked to the people in words that they understood and in paradigms in which they were familiar.

We're forgetting that if Jesus was able to tell demonic possession from natural illness then he would have treated them differently. I mention this because in some cases where he heals people he simply tells them to do so, whereas in other cases he actually commands the demons to come out. In other words he 'recognised' possession as being different from natural illness.

In other words, mental illness is the diagnosis when it is natural, but mental illness is the symptom when it's a result of possession.

Ummm... I don't think this is what you meant to say.

Let me put it another way - if a person exhibits a certain set of symptoms we recognise we could say they are mentally ill. We could say "This person exhibits symptoms A, B and C so they might have disorder X."

With possession, a person might exhibit a certain set of symptoms we recognise and a host of other behaviours which we don't. Basically although they may be mentally ill, their illness is only a small part of something much bigger. Admittedly I can't prove or think of any examples of what this "bigger something" might be.

I'm wondering - if demons do exist then during an exorcism might we be able to "see" them using thermal imaging cameras?

Looking at the Greek, the word in question is seleniazomenous. The 'menous' is just an ending telling us person and tense so the real word in question is eleniazomai. This word literally means to "be moonstruck" (compare to the noun selene meaning 'moon'). Instead of 'lunatic' many scholars suggest that it is probably better to understand this as a form of epilepsy.

They made a connection (albeit false) to the appearance of the moon, believing this triggered the disorder.

Interestingly many epileptics do have more seizures or exhibit strange behaviour during certain phases of the moon (albeit not a full moon). Perhaps there is a connection.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/full_moon_040526.html

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

he would have treated them differently.

Not necessarily. Again, accomadationalism.

In other words he 'recognised' possession as being different from natural illness.

Again, accomadationalism. I would argue that one of two things is going on. Either Jesus knew that the people in the crowd would respond to different things in different situations or, the Evangelists were trying to convey different things at different times. But again, I am not necessarily even endorsing this point of view.

other behaviours which we don't.

But my question is why can't these symptoms that we do not recognise now simply be symptoms of a mental illness that we do not yet know about? An illness with as natural a cause as my mental illness.

Interestingly many epileptics do have more seizures or exhibit strange behaviour during certain phases of the moon (albeit not a full moon). Perhaps there is a connection.

Indeed, but regardless it is not insanity so the original point that was made by that passage is weakened.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

But my question is why can't these symptoms that we do not recognise now simply be symptoms of a mental illness that we do not yet know about? An illness with as natural a cause as my mental illness.

Well it would be very unusual to find a symptom of a mental illness which does not already exist in some form. The names themselves might change (I think clinical depression was once known as melancholia) or the symptom may manifest itself in different ways. Some OCDs are obsessed with cleaning their hands while others are obsessed with organising things, for example.
For a brand-new symptom or mental illness to pop up suddenly would be very strange (indeed doctors are often critisized for "inventing" new disorders, such as the ADHD controversy).

Incidently I've just noticed I've been calling you BEYONDtheFoundation *facepalm*.

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

Well it would be very unusual to find a symptom of a mental illness which does not already exist in some form

This is absolutely not true. For example, they are about to come out with a revised DSM around 2012 (they are now up to DSM-V now). This is the Big Book of all known Psychological disorders. The reason that it needs to be revised on a fairly regular basis is because new problems are always being found. One of particular interest is a new addiction that they have defined, namely an addiction to online communities (such as World of Warcraft or online forums... uh oh... ha ha).

But anyway, new problems are often being found. Another example is the book by Oliver Sacks entitled The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat. This book investigates very esoteric disorders that are so rare (or very extreme cases of more common disorders) that very little research has been done into them. The point is, these people very easily could have been 'diagnosed' with a demon, but it turns out that, once again, there are natural explainations.

The names themselves might change (I think clinical depression was once known as melancholia) or the symptom may manifest itself in different ways.

Correct, but in addition new disorders actually do appear.

Some OCDs are obsessed with cleaning their hands while others are obsessed with organising things, for example.

You don't have to tell me ha ha

For a brand-new symptom or mental illness to pop up suddenly would be very strange

Again, this actually does happen.

(indeed doctors are often critisized for "inventing" new disorders, such as the ADHD controversy).

Actually, the criticism is usually for an overdiagnosis of ADHD and ADD. It would be a rare occurance indeed for any expert to argue that these newly discovered illnesses do not exist at all.

Incidently I've just noticed I've been calling you BEYONDtheFoundation *facepalm*.

Don't worry about it.