How can RCs and Protestants reconcile

[sunlover1]

Jn. 16: Jesus said He would send the Spirit of truth to guide His people into 'all truth.' And the Bible says in Isaiah, 'You will hear a voice behind you saying, this is the way, walk ye in it.'

John 16 consists of Jesus addressing his disciples, not you or me.

Yes, and so is the account of the Last Supper, but that's different?

20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you,
that one of you shall betray me. 22 And they were exceeding
sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the
dish, the same shall betray me. 24 † The Son of man goeth as it is
written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is
betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. 25
Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I?
He said unto him, Thou hast said.
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and
brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my
body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them,
saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament,
which is shed for many for the remission of sins.​

http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=7339906#_ftn2

I guess it comes down to faith.

Some take the words of Jesus more literally than others.

 

[chestertonrules]

Protestant orthodox churches do not teach heresy. Period.

That is an opinion. Period.

Heresy is an introduced change to some system of belief, especially a religion, that conflicts with the previously established canon of that belief.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That is an opinion. Period.

Heresy is an introduced change to some system of belief, especially a religion, that conflicts with the previously established canon of that belief.

Can you give some examples of either Protestant or Orthodox heresies?

 

[archierieus]

Yes, understood. But to consider also, that if I quote -say- Elder Paisios, or appeal to the measure of the 'ethos/ithos', and this is dismissed automatically because it is a different measure than yours, then what is the point of continuing ? Already, there is no discussion. So why pretend, isn't it better to not waste the time ? I'm not trying to be difficult. Perhaps (to illustrate) if the measure would only be the lives of the Saints and not any scripture, you would find the discussion to be pointless for you to participate in ?

Why allow me to control what you do or don't do? Present your material, place it on the table, and then give others the freedom to do with it what they will. If some see it as having merit, then well and good. Others may not. That, too, is well and good for them, I should think. I suggest a boundary should be drawn. What a person presents is up to him or her. What a person accepts is up to him or her, and s/he should not be pressured to accept or reject it. Leave that up to the individual. If it is placed on the table, it will be in the crucible of discussion. Won't be a 'hands off' response. Nor, I should think, would that be expected or desirable.

 

[archierieus]

That is an opinion. Period.

Heresy is an introduced change to some system of belief, especially a religion, that conflicts with the previously established canon of that belief.

So, then, 'heresy' according to Catholic church teaching. Then such a presentation should go in the Catholic forum, OBOB or such, I would think, rather than GT.

 

[chestertonrules]

Yes, and so is the account of the Last Supper, but that's different?

20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you,
that one of you shall betray me. 22 And they were exceeding
sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the
dish, the same shall betray me. 24 † The Son of man goeth as it is
written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is
betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. 25
Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I?
He said unto him, Thou hast said.
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and
brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my
body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them,
saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament,
which is shed for many for the remission of sins.​

In John 14-17, Jesus grants to his disciples an authority and gives them the promise to lead them into truth. He then distinguishes their role from the role of those who will believe in him through their message.


As to this passage, I agree that Jesus is speaking to his disciples. In fact, the Church maintains that only valid successors of the apostles can legitimately perform the ceremony that Jesus commands them to perform.

If your point is that Jesus never told us to do this in memory of him, then I concede. However, we also can read in 1 Corinthians 10 and 11 and in the writings of the early fathers that the early Christians were taught to participate in communion.

 

[chestertonrules]

So, then, 'heresy' according to Catholic church teaching. Then such a presentation should go in the Catholic forum, OBOB or such, I would think, rather than GT.

That is the definition of heresy according to any teaching.

An introduced change in a system of belief.

Clearly, the reformation produced much heresy, as defined here.

 

[squint]

All non RCC members are advised openly, subtly or eventually some of us drag the facts out of the RCC position for them that more than likely ALL of us who are NOT RCC are in fact heretics, and as such we have surely been amply advised, well beyond this measure:

Titus 3:10
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject

On THIS basis of fact I'd suggest that the RCC adherents take their own advice and go away from this forum in the best interests of their of stated facts.

This would solve at least more than half of the issues. Chesterton alone has advised us of this fact how many times in this single thread alone?

enjoy!

squint

 

[chestertonrules]

Can you give some examples of either Protestant or Orthodox heresies?

Some of the doctrines of Protestantism that the Catholic Church considers heretical are the belief that the Bible is the only source and rule of faith ("sola scriptura"), that faith alone can lead to salvation ("sola fide") and that there is no sacramental, ministerial priesthood attained by ordination.

 

[chestertonrules]

All non RCC members are advised openly, subtly or eventually some of us drag the facts out of the RCC position for them that more than likely ALL of us who are NOT RCC are in fact heretics, and as such we have surely been amply advised, well beyond this measure:

Titus 3:10
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject

On THIS basis of fact I'd suggest that the RCC adherents take their own advice and go away from this forum in the best interests of their of stated facts.

This would solve at least more than half of the issues. Chesterton alone has advised us of this fact how many times in this single thread alone?

enjoy!

squint

I didn't bring it up a single time, actually.

However, I do believe that a rejection of the Church Jesus founded is defined as heresy.

The Church's position on heresy is much more nuanced and complicated than you seem to understand.

 

[sunlover1]

In John 14-17, Jesus grants to his disciples an authority and gives them the promise to lead them into truth. He then distinguishes their role from the role of those who will believe in him through their message.

Of course he does.
Those who will believe in Him 'through their message' arent even
believers yet. But after they DO, they too then are filled with the
Spirit of God, the Spirit of truth. Why would God fill me with Truth,
and then not lead me into truth? It just makes no sense.

As to this passage, I agree that Jesus is speaking to his disciples. In fact, the Church maintains that only valid successors of the apostles can legitimately perform the ceremony that Jesus commands them to perform.

I understand thats what your church believes. I dont believe the same.

If your point is that Jesus never told us to do this in memory of him, then I concede. However, we also can read in 1 Corinthians 10 and 11 and in the writings of the early fathers that the early Christians were taught to participate in communion

Exactly ! And the same is true of the Holy Spirit leading us ALL into truth.
We, must take the entire counsel of God into consideration.
But I understand why this is a hard pill to swallow for you too.

AFA this thread, I dont see the possibility of any reconsiliation in light
of the fact that we speak different languages.
Love though, that's a different story. We do have that.

 

[Rick Otto]

Ordination has been by political appointment at times.
Respectible is, as respectible does.

 

[archierieus]

That is the definition of heresy according to any teaching.

An introduced change in a system of belief.

Clearly, the reformation produced much heresy, as defined here.

According to Catholic teaching. And THAT forum would be the place to discuss such, I should think. This is NOT the Catholic forum, but General Theology. Why not leave the 'Catholic heresy teaching' discussion in the Catholic forum?

 

[archierieus]

I would like to propose that this section NOT be for Catholics proselytizing Protestants! Or for Protestants proselytizing Catholics. This is General Theology. Can we do denominational proselytizing somewhere else?

 

[Uphill Battle]

sounds good, archie.... but good luck with that though. It will never happen.

 

[chestertonrules]

Of course he does.
Those who will believe in Him 'through their message' arent even
believers yet. But after they DO, they too then are filled with the
Spirit of God, the Spirit of truth. Why would God fill me with Truth,
and then not lead me into truth? It just makes no sense.

That's not how I read it.

Exactly ! And the same is true of the Holy Spirit leading us ALL into truth.

Not true. We disagree strongly on many important aspects of the Christian faith.

AFA this thread, I dont see the possibility of any reconsiliation in light
of the fact that we speak different languages.
Love though, that's a different story. We do have that.

Reconciliation is always possible, but love is mandatory.

Otherwise, we are just clanging cymbals!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I would like to propose that this section NOT be for Catholics proselytizing Protestants! Or for Protestants proselytizing Catholics. This is General Theology. Can we do denominational proselytizing somewhere else?

Gotta watch out for wascalwwy proselyzers

Matthew 23:15 Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! that ye are going about the Sea and the Dry/xhran <3584> to make one proselyte and whenever he may be becoming, ye are making him a son of geennhV twofold-more of ye-selves

Luke 23:31 That if in the moist wood/xulw <3586> these-things they are doing, in the Dry/xhrw <3584>, what may be becoming?

 

[chestertonrules]

I would like to propose that this section NOT be for Catholics proselytizing Protestants! Or for Protestants proselytizing Catholics. This is General Theology. Can we do denominational proselytizing somewhere else?

Theology is the study of God.

Determing the manner of God's revelation to us is theology.

This is the perfect thread for discussing and debating the differences between protestants and catholics.

 

[chestertonrules]

According to Catholic teaching. And THAT forum would be the place to discuss such, I should think. This is NOT the Catholic forum, but General Theology. Why not leave the 'Catholic heresy teaching' discussion in the Catholic forum?

The definition of heresy I looked up was from wikipedia.

I didn't bring up the heresy question, by the way.

 

[chestertonrules]

Ordination has been by political appointment at times.
Respectible is, as respectible does.

Always through the laying on of hands by a successor of the apostles.