How can RCs and Protestants reconcile

[archierieus]

We must break down the wall by examining each brick that divides us.

This takes study, prayer, and debate.

And a moratorium on finger-pointing and demonizing those on the other side. Defense-avoiding communication is the key. Focus on fact and evidence, rather than on accusatory statements.

Do you think that can be done?

 

[Hentenza]

We must break down the wall by examining each brick that divides us.

This takes study, prayer, and debate.

This will only be possible if a level field leading to respect is established.

 

[Thekla]

As I recall, he merely said that Scripture is all that would persuade him.

And my reply was to the effect that it doesn't matter that you disagree with each other about this, because we already know that. The problem is how to deal with it, not how to make one side go away.

As I've iterated previously, I think respecting the differences - and their historical reality- is a good start. I think it would be silly to ask the EO to stuff a rag in half of their mouth before they speak (deny part of what they received).

I don't desire to convince, but explain. But if the explanation is pre-conceived to be bootless, what is the point of the effort ?

I'm not trying to be difficult, I am trying to point out some of the difficulties in communication between us. If the differences stand, and the efforts are treated with suspicion, then I think it would be pointless to continue. I am not offended either way - just want clarity.

 

[chestertonrules]

Jn. 16: Jesus said He would send the Spirit of truth to guide His people into 'all truth.' And the Bible says in Isaiah, 'You will hear a voice behind you saying, this is the way, walk ye in it.'

quote]

John 16 consists of Jesus addressing his disciples, not you or me.

Jesus gives them his authority. If we reject them, he says, we will be rejecting him.

I believe protestantism is a rejection of the teaching of the disciples.

Orthodox faiths do not reject the vast majority of these teachings.


We can learn what the apostles taught by reading the words and/or stories of those who studied under them.(Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement, Barnabas, etc.)

Have you done that?

 

[chestertonrules]

And a moratorium on finger-pointing and demonizing those on the other side. Defense-avoiding communication is the key. Focus on fact and evidence, rather than on accusatory statements.

Do you think that can be done?

Of course. For the most part, that is exactly what's been going on in this thread.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

We must break down the wall by examining each brick that divides us.

This takes study, prayer, and debate.

Isn't that what all of us here are doing

John 18:29 Went forth then the Pilate toward them and said "what accusation/kathgorian <2724> do ye bring against the Man, this one"?
30 They answered and said to him, "If He were not an evil-doer, not ever this-one to thee we have delivered Him."

 

[archierieus]

This will only be possible if a level field leading to respect is established.

I'm game for it. And it certainly sounds Scriptural, what Jesus would call for. How about others?

 

[chestertonrules]

Isn't that what all of us here are doing

John 18:29 Went forth then the Pilate toward them and said "what accusation/kathgorian <2724> do ye bring against the Man, this one"?
30 They answered and said to him, "If He were not an evil-doer, not ever this-one to thee we have delivered Him."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Hentenza This will only be possible if a level field leading to respect is established.

Isaiah 40:4 Every valley/ravine shall be exalted, and every of Mountain and Hill shall be low: and the crookeds becomes to straight, and the roughs to a plain/valley: [Luke 3:5]

Luke 3:5 Every ravine shall be being filled and every Mountain and Hill/bounoV <1015> shall be being made low and shall be the crookeds into straight and the roughs made into ways smooth.[Isaiah 40:4]

 

[archierieus]

Of course. For the most part, that is exactly what's been going on in this thread.

The thread is improving from a few pages back, I will say that. And I do appreciate the effort you appear to be making. I would just say generally to all, cut the name-calling, and as Hentenza pointed out, recognize all as players, legitimize each PERSON who has his or her beliefs. As for the beliefs, let them be freely and openly discussed, lay them out for all to consider, with, I would add, good footnotes, and pray for God to impress each one according to His will.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I believe that Jesus is leading the Church into truth. I believe that individual men are in error when they reach conclusions that are contradicted by the Church.

I believe that Christian unity is only possible in the Catholic Church, and I also believe that it will become a reality before Jesus returns.

It's beautiful. You have never experienced the presence of Jesus fully until you are in the presence of his body, blood, soul, and divinity in the Eucharist.



I have a request for you. Check your local Catholic Churches to find out when they offer Eucharistic adoration. Some parishes offer perpetual adoration, 24 hours a day.

This is a quiet prayer time where the consecrated host is exposed.

Try to schedule a time to attend an adoration service for a few minutes of prayer before the body and blood of Jesus.


Let me know if you feel the presence of Christ in a new way.

I have visited a Dominican convent where there is perpetual adoration of the wafer and the wine. Although I am quite convinced that it was very meaningful to some individuals, it did nothing for me. I am also convinced that for some individuals worship in a Hindu, Shinto, or Buddhist temple is equally moving and meaningful.

 

[Hentenza]

I'm game for it. And it certainly sounds Scriptural, what Jesus would call for. How about others?

We have the tools already. Just need to start enforcing them consistently. Here are the Theology forum specific guidelines.

Theology:
Scope: These forum guidelines apply to all Theology Forums.

1: Scope of Discussions: These forums are for the discussion of Christian Theology, Ethics, and History. For the purposes of the Theology forums, discussion is limited to Christian faith and practice as framed in the Nicene Creed. This includes the study of what Christian churches teach and confess, what Christians believe, and what the Bible teaches.

Discussion of non-Nicene beliefs is limited only to discussion from a Nicene point of view for purposes of evangelism.

2: Provide Citations: When quoting material from another site, you must provide a link to your source material for authentication. If quoting from a hard copy then proper citations must also be used. At a minimum the title of the book, magazine, article etc and the name of the author must be posted.

3: Focus on Topics: Discussions should be about doctrines and history, not about other members or their personal faith. Posters who include egregious personal insults and accusations in their posts have their posts edited by moderator staff, and may be issued notices and/or forum specific bans due to them, depending on the seriousness of the flame.

4: Provide Supporting Statements: Posters in Theology are expected to treat one another with courtesy and respect at all times, ESPECIALLY if you disagree with each other. When you disagree with someone's position, you should post evidence and supporting statements for your position. This policy, sometimes referred to as "X means Y because of Z", must be followed especially when posting claims that are widely considered to be controversial.

5. Respect Differing Points of Reference: It is expected that people who post in Theology will respect people of faith, including those for whom faith and logic are not contradictions, but complements to one another. To some Christians, arguments from the Bible, from doctrine, and from tradition, are just as valid (and at times more valid) than arguments from logic, reason, science, or history. Whether you are arguing from faith or from logic or some combination thereof, you should respect the other person's point of reference.

6. Accusations of non-Christian doctrine: Stating that another member's church is not Christian is not allowed. However, stating a teaching or belief of another church is not Christian because of X, Y, and Z, is allowed.

7: "Tread Carefully" Topics: Theology posters are expected to understand that accusations of heresy, false doctrine, idolatry, anti-Christ, cult, non-Christian beliefs, antisemitism, etc., are very emotionally laden. They are not conducive to clear discussion. While they are not forbidden in the context of a discussion (with evidence, examples, and/or support), they are discouraged by themselves, as terms of insult. This rule may be referred to as the "tread carefully" rule.

8: Discussion of Historical Figures: Discussion of historical figures important to Christians of many theological backgrounds is a necessary component of theological discourse. Such figures include [but are not limited to]: the Pope, the Patriarchs of the Eastern Orthodox Churches, various Church Fathers (e.g., St. Augustine), Martin Luther, John Calvin, Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, etc. Such figures are not immune from criticism. However, insults and accusations against these people are not to be posted lightly, and may only be used when accompanied by citation of sources and in the "If X, then Y, because of Z" format. Statements unaccompanied by these requirements will be deemed inflammatory and dealt with appropriately.

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FSG number 4,5,6 and 7 basically cover how debate and discussion should be conducted. A great number of folks here have not really read them and we have been guilty of not fully enforcing them.

 

[archierieus]

As I've iterated previously, I think respecting the differences - and their historical reality- is a good start. I think it would be silly to ask the EO to stuff a rag in half of their mouth before they speak (deny part of what they received).

I don't desire to convince, but explain. But if the explanation is pre-conceived to be bootless, what is the point of the effort ?

I'm not trying to be difficult, I am trying to point out some of the difficulties in communication between us. If the differences stand, and the efforts are treated with suspicion, then I think it would be pointless to continue. I am not offended either way - just want clarity.

Speaking for myself, I would think that each person should have the freedom to present whatever he or she wishes, within forum parameters. Recognize that if it is presented on a discussion forum, it is going to be evaluated. Each person, then, also has the freedom to do with what is presented whatever he or she chooses, within forum parameters. Live and let live.

Dave

 

[chestertonrules]

I have visited a Dominican convent where there is perpetual adoration of the wafer and the wine. Although I am quite convinced that it was very meaningful to some individuals, it did nothing for me. I am also convinced that for some individuals worship in a Hindu, Shinto, or Buddhist temple is equally moving and meaningful.

I guess it comes down to faith.

Some take the words of Jesus more literally than others.

 

[squint]

PROVOCATION is a requirement of the Gospel that extends to multiple fronts. Those of you asking to dodge/forestall/ignore these very scriptural facts are only going to frustrate yourselves in the end. It is quite pointless to fight against scriptural principles and in fact these same principles will without any doubt continue to play themselves out over and over again BECAUSE God Himself has set these principles in place and NONE of us are going to be changing the facts anymore than we could stop gravity.

I've posted these two scriptures often here to point out just ONE undeniable principle, that even if denied DOES NOT MATTER. This remains a fact that you WILL NOT CHANGE nor CAN any of us change this fact:

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Since we 'all' understand only IN PART that means we have areas where we 'understand it NOT.'

Now why in the world would any sane person believe the stated fact from The Lips of Jesus above is going to be changed or altered or even more ignorant, that YOU are IMMUNE from this transpiring? Answer: ding ding ding

Here is this scriptural fact again:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

And again, this will NOT CHANGE for anyone, period. It won't be done. It is IMPOSSIBLE while Satan, the wicked one remains on this earth. It's a FACT and a FACT that you'd best learn to LIVE WITH.

The above are a couple of scriptural examples of PROVOCATION of WHOM (the devil, Satan) by WHAT (The Word.)

So rather than seek to eradicate the IMPOSSIBLE, why don't ALL BELIEVERS simply recognize that this FACT is a CONFIRMATION of the efficacy of THE WORD...hello! The very FACT that there are these divisions, disputes and provocations is because of the VERY REAL WORKING of the resistance? To resist this fact is futile and fruitless and pointless. This fact is part of the very FULCRUM of the GOSPEL that should be FULLY EXPECTED...even ANTICIPATED.

And you know what else? It happens IN US...that is IN OUR FLESH and MINDS.

Now isn't that just ducky?

Look at the FACTS...expect the FACTS...deal with the FACTS...and even if the inevitable, non-stoppable FACT transpires by knowing this FACT you do have UNITY to this FACT transpiring.

Deny the FACT and you simply show yourself as a PAWN of the deniers of the FACT.

And in seeing, acknowledging, anticipating, observing what this fact BRINGS...you have now allied yourself IN UNITY with the working of The Word and you have a very big TOOL of TRUTH in your own belt. One that you can carry with you everyday.

This is the first barrage, the first hurdle of what THE TRUTH brings that is the very hardest thing to accept 'personally.' But if you simply ASK TRUTH in your own heart IF this is TRUE, I expect TRUTH to answer YOU 'truthfully' IF He is there with you in your heart. And you should NOT FEAR the disclosures of TRUTH.

In all your might, you WILL NOT CHANGE this fact. The very opposite will transpire to DRIVE HOME the FACT and how SOLIDLY this is currently set into our system.

WE know that the WHOLE WORLD lies in WICKEDNESS and EVIL.

enjoy!

squint

 

[katholikos]

Thats because he (Luther I assume) went beyond reform. He tried to introduce heresy. That is unacceptable

That kind of language tends to incite. And it can go both ways. Rather than accuse someone of heresy, why not seek to build up and build bridges--find common ground, and let the Holy Spirit lead?

I was not trying to incite. According to Catholic teachings, the things Luther was teaching were heresy. And since he did not recant he had to be excomminicated.

He was right to seek reform regarding corruptions and bad behaviors in the Church. Heck, we still do that today. But to go beyond that and introduce teachings that contradicted Catholic teaching is a whole other matter.

 

[Thekla]

Speaking for myself, I would think that each person should have the freedom to present whatever he or she wishes, within forum parameters. Recognize that if it is presented on a discussion forum, it is going to be evaluated. Each person, then, also has the freedom to do with what is presented whatever he or she chooses, within forum parameters. Live and let live.

Dave

Yes, understood. But to consider also, that if I quote -say- Elder Paisios, or appeal to the measure of the 'ethos/ithos', and this is dismissed automatically because it is a different measure than yours, then what is the point of continuing ? Already, there is no discussion. So why pretend, isn't it better to not waste the time ? I'm not trying to be difficult. Perhaps (to illustrate) if the measure would only be the lives of the Saints and not any scripture, you would find the discussion to be pointless for you to participate in ?

 

[Hentenza]

I was not trying to incite. According to Catrholic teachings, the things Luther was teraching were heresy. And since he did not recant he had to be excomminicated. Period.

He was right to seek reform regarding corruptions and bad behaviors in the Church. Heck, we still do that today. But to go beyond that and introduce heresies is a whole other matter.

Protestant orthodox churches do not teach heresy. Period.

 

[katholikos]

Protestant orthodox churches do not teach heresy. Period.

I disagree, obviously

 

[archierieus]

I was not trying to incite. According to Catrholic teachings, the things Luther was teraching were heresy. And since he did not recant he had to be excomminicated. Period.

And you have every right to believe that. However, if the parties to a discussion are seeking openness and understanding--and the possibility of common ground and/or reconciliation, then calling one another 'heretics' or followers of a heretic is not conducive to such goals. In fact, that militates AGAINST such goals. It is a different agenda--a 'bash the heretics' agenda.

Solution: Practice defense-avoiding communication, tact and diplomacy. And for bare-knuckled debates, isn't there a section for that?