poor uzzah

[calluna]

Where does God institute the church

Yes. Where does God institute the church?

 

[wildboar]

Matthew 16:15-19 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Romans 12:3-9 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. 9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

Ephesians 5:23-27 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

1 Corinthians 12:28-31 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

Pentecost can and has rightly been thought of as the birthday of the church but in a certain sense the church began on Good Friday when the side of Christ was pierced and blood and water flowed out of it.

 

[calluna]

Matthew

All and sundry quote Matthew and throw in their own perversions.

 

[wildboar]

All and sundry quote Matthew and throw in their own perversions.

So you don't like Matthew? What perversion have I thrown in?

 

[calluna]

So you don't like Matthew? What perversion have I thrown in?

So you don't know where the church is, or you can't say where it is.

 

[jackero]

So you don't know where the church is, or you can't say where it is.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.


1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.


Thus, whe are the church

 

[calluna]

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.


1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.


Thus, whe are the church

That's marvelous. I've always wanted to meet one of you originals! But how can we be sure that you were in the church at Corinth? Can you prove it?

 

[wildboar]

The Scriptures speak of the "church" in a couple of different but related senses. Sometimes the Scriptures speak of the church as being composed of all believers of every age and sometimes the Bible speaks about the church as a local assembly composed of both believers and unbelievers. Those who come to be a part of the church of every age do so because of the faith that they have learned from the visible church which has both believers and unbelievers in it. If you attend something that calls itself a church you can know you are at a Christian church if the Gospel is proclaimed--Christ-crucified and if the sacraments (baptism and the Lord's Supper) are administered.

Matthew 16:15-19 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

In this passage Peter is given the keys because of his confession that Jesus is the Christ. He is the first to receive the keys, the other apostles receive the keys after the resurrection. Jesus promised to build his church on the office of the keys/ministry of Peter. Jesus builds his church by sending ministers who know, preach, and confess that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God.

 

[Athanasias]

poor uzzah.

in trying to do well (2 sam 6:6-8) he
invokes the wrath of god.

was this fair?

Liturgical abuse was punishable by death in the OT. The Ark contained the Holy presence of God and his types. Only the sanctified priest could touch it.Uzzah was not authorized to touch it. He got what he deserved.

 

[Zebra1552]

Matthew 16:15-19 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Romans 12:3-9 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. 9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

Ephesians 5:23-27 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

1 Corinthians 12:28-31 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

Pentecost can and has rightly been thought of as the birthday of the church but in a certain sense the church began on Good Friday when the side of Christ was pierced and blood and water flowed out of it.

That refers to church as a body of all believers, not as an institution. Check your Greek.

 

[Zebra1552]

The Scriptures speak of the "church" in a couple of different but related senses. Sometimes the Scriptures speak of the church as being composed of all believers of every age and sometimes the Bible speaks about the church as a local assembly composed of both believers and unbelievers. Those who come to be a part of the church of every age do so because of the faith that they have learned from the visible church which has both believers and unbelievers in it. If you attend something that calls itself a church you can know you are at a Christian church if the Gospel is proclaimed--Christ-crucified and if the sacraments (baptism and the Lord's Supper) are administered.

Matthew 16:15-19 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

In this passage Peter is given the keys because of his confession that Jesus is the Christ. He is the first to receive the keys, the other apostles receive the keys after the resurrection. Jesus promised to build his church on the office of the keys/ministry of Peter. Jesus builds his church by sending ministers who know, preach, and confess that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God.

I will remind you that Peter also started the conversions after Pentecost- 3000 people. So yes, he is the foundation of the body of Christ. Not an institution.

 

[wildboar]

That refers to church as a body of all believers, not as an institution. Check your Greek.

It is a matter of interpretation, not a matter of word studies. The word has to do with an assembly. An assembly is something that can be seen. The Scriptures speak of various people given various gifts to serve in the body of Christ and as long as two or more people are involved in this some type of institution will inevitably develop so that things are done decenly and in good order. We find this in the New Testament with the appointment of elders and deacons. People weren't just running about all claiming to be Christians and thinking independently from one another. The concept of institution itself is neither good nor bad. Problems come into play when the main goal is preservation of the institution at all costs. But the only alternative to institution is for a person to sit in his room by himself and lock the door which isn't Scriptural either.

 

[Zebra1552]

It is a matter of interpretation, not a matter of word studies. The word has to do with an assembly. An assembly is something that can be seen. The Scriptures speak of various people given various gifts to serve in the body of Christ and as long as two or more people are involved in this some type of institution will inevitably develop so that things are done decenly and in good order. We find this in the New Testament with the appointment of elders and deacons. People weren't just running about all claiming to be Christians and thinking independently from one another. The concept of institution itself is neither good nor bad. Problems come into play when the main goal is preservation of the institution at all costs. But the only alternative to institution is for a person to sit in his room by himself and lock the door which isn't Scriptural either.

With institutions comes discord. That's the difference between an assembly and an institution. Another big difference is the elders of that day were not as arrogant in thinking they had all the answers. It's a nice sharp contrast to what you see today. We are meant to be a body, not an institution.

 

[wildboar]

With institutions comes discord. That's the difference between an assembly and an institution. Another big difference is the elders of that day were not as arrogant in thinking they had all the answers. It's a nice sharp contrast to what you see today. We are meant to be a body, not an institution.

An assembly is a type of institution and if you think that there were no divisions or discord in the early church I think you are reading a different Bible than I am. The church is simultaneously both saint and sinner because those within it are both saint and sinner.

 

[Zebra1552]

An assembly is a type of institution and if you think that there were no divisions or discord in the early church I think you are reading a different Bible than I am. The church is simultaneously both saint and sinner because those within it are both saint and sinner.

So just because I believe different things about the church, biblically based, you assume I'm reading a different Bible? There were FAR less divisions in the early church, and the early church was not made up of millions of buildings with hundreds of different worship styles. It certainly did not debate whether or not homosexual sex is sin, and it also did not debate whether or not everyone went to heaven. Within Christianity today we have thousands of cliques due to the denominational differences between people and for no better reason. That is NOT the church as Jesus intends it.

 

[wildboar]

So just because I believe different things about the church, biblically based, you assume I'm reading a different Bible? There were FAR less divisions in the early church, and the early church was not made up of millions of buildings with hundreds of different worship styles. It certainly did not debate whether or not homosexual sex is sin, and it also did not debate whether or not everyone went to heaven. Within Christianity today we have thousands of cliques due to the denominational differences between people and for no better reason. That is NOT the church as Jesus intends it.

I agree that the church should return to the ancient forms of worship found in Lutheran, Roman Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox churches. I also agree that the homosexuality debate was not an issue. However, in the early church you did have the circumcision party that taught that you had to be circumcised in order to be a Christian. There were people teaching that the Old Testament law had to be obeyed for salvation. You also had the toleration in some churches of someone who was having sexual relations with his step-mother. There was real idolatry taking place. You had people claiming that Jesus had already returned. You had people who had bizarre interpretations of the law and geneologies of the Old Testament. None of these things are the church as Jesus intended it either.

None of our current problems can be remedied simply by doing away with institutional terms. That's to miss the point entirely. If we determine to not join any institution where sin is taking place then we better not join either or there will be sin taking place. What we need to ask ourselves to determine if we are in a Christian assembly is, "Is the Gospel of Christ crucified being preached?" and "Are the sacraments being administered?" The whole idea of whether there is a building is irrelevant. If there are furnishings in the building which point us to Christ that is good but they are not the point.

 

[Zebra1552]

I agree that the church should return to the ancient forms of worship found in Lutheran, Roman Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox churches. I also agree that the homosexuality debate was not an issue.

I am not talking about whether or not we should return to one form of worship. I am talking about said preferences dividing people.

However, in the early church you did have the circumcision party that taught that you had to be circumcised in order to be a Christian.

Which died after Peter preached to the Roman officer and had the meeting. It was not nearly as divisive for nearly as long as the other issues I cited.

There were people teaching that the Old Testament law had to be obeyed for salvation. You also had the toleration in some churches of someone who was having sexual relations with his step-mother. There was real idolatry taking place. You had people claiming that Jesus had already returned. You had people who had bizarre interpretations of the law and geneologies of the Old Testament. None of these things are the church as Jesus intended it either.

Nor was it as divided as now, with the number of different "churches" we have today.

None of our current problems can be remedied simply by doing away with institutional terms. That's to miss the point entirely.

And neither can they be solved by strictly adhering to them. This world is changing, and for a change we might start changing with it to reach more people.

If we determine to not join any institution where sin is taking place then we better not join either or there will be sin taking place. What we need to ask ourselves to determine if we are in a Christian assembly is, "Is the Gospel of Christ crucified being preached?" and "Are the sacraments being administered?" The whole idea of whether there is a building is irrelevant. If there are furnishings in the building which point us to Christ that is good but they are not the point.

Forget the bloody sacraments, forget preaching. This world does NOT need it. It needs people who are willing to love them where they are at but still hold firm to morality and the message of the gospel. It needs discipleship, which, if you recall, was what Jesus commanded us to do. That requires people to be people and not be an institution.

 

[wildboar]

Forget the bloody sacraments, forget preaching. This world does NOT need it. It needs people who are willing to love them where they are at but still hold firm to morality and the message of the gospel. It needs discipleship, which, if you recall, was what Jesus commanded us to do. That requires people to be people and not be an institution.

Matthew 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

1 Corinthians 1:22-25 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

These are not my bloody sacraments. They are sacraments given by Jesus for you. I don't why you hate His good gifts so much. Jesus said that disciples are made through baptism. Why should I listen to you instead of Him? Do you think you know what the world needs better than He does? And it is through the foolishness of preaching that God has determined to save people.

Just teaching some kind of moral code is not Christianity--it is every religion but Christianity. People can become Muslims or Buddhists if all they want is a moral code. Jesus preached the law to people severely to show them that they were completely incapable of keeping it. He took the law seriously. He shows us that only He can fulfill the law. Because of our love for Him and what He has done for us we strive to keep the law for the good of our neighbor. But none of this does away with the sacraments. If you are going to throw out the sacraments and the preaching you throw away everything that Christ gave us.

 

[Zebra1552]

I don't why you hate His good gifts so much.

Straw man argument is not going to win you this discussion.

Jesus said that disciples are made through baptism.

No, Jesus did not say that. Jesus said that love proves us to be disciples (John 15). Baptism is NOT a requirement, it's symbolic of an inner change. See Romans 6. The inner change can take place without giving the symbol for it, so long as the symbol is understood.

Why should I listen to you instead of Him? Do you think you know what the world needs better than He does? And it is through the foolishness of preaching that God has determined to save people.

Preaching? Did you not get my point about discipleship? Our goal should never be to convert people, it should be to make disciples. This involves relationships, which are not possible if you go around telling people they have to be baptized.

These are not my bloody sacraments. They are sacraments given by Jesus for you.

The 'sacraments' you have 'cited' do not come from Jesus, but from a narrow reading of Scripture. The Bible is meant to be taken as a whole, not chopped up into little packages called sacraments. The whole of the message is love, noncondemnation, and justice. Not Pharisaical legalism that is implied by your sacraments. I firmly and wholeheartedly reject anything that even turns people's noses away. As Paul said, "I have become all things to all men so that by all means I might save some." I intend to live that out, don't you? But you can't do that if you're not willing to bend a little. In other words, the nonessentials can stay on the sidelines for a bit until they're ready. Then you can bring them into the game. If you fail to do that, you end the game too early and get more bitterness and dejected ex-Christians.

Just teaching some kind of moral code is not Christianity--it is every religion but Christianity.

Christianity is not a religion, sir, it is a relationship, and relationships are hindered by legalism.

People can become Muslims or Buddhists if all they want is a moral code. Jesus preached the law to people severely to show them that they were completely incapable of keeping it.

Jesus did not preach the Law. Jesus preached repentance- turning away from sinful attitudes as well as sinful actions. He also preached forgiveness and mercy.

He took the law seriously.

He also takes forgiveness very seriously:
Mat 18:21 Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
Mat 18:22 Jesus *said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
Mat 18:24 "When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
Mat 18:25 "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
Mat 18:26 "So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
Mat 18:27 "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'
Mat 18:29 "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
Mat 18:30 "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
Mat 18:31 "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
Mat 18:32 "Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
Mat 18:33 'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
Mat 18:34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
Mat 18:35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

He shows us that only He can fulfill the law.

Jesus shows that only His death can fulfill the law.

Because of our love for Him and what He has done for us we strive to keep the law for the good of our neighbor. But none of this does away with the sacraments. If you are going to throw out the sacraments and the preaching you throw away everything that Christ gave us.

No I do not. I throw out the very thing keeping people from Christ. Now, if I throw out His death, yes, I throw out everything Christ gave us- eternal life.
Why do you think I hate concepts like confirmation? Do answer that to the best of your ability.
Why do you think I abandoned Lutheran teachings? Do answer that also to the best of your ability.

 

[wildboar]

No, Jesus did not say that. Jesus said that love proves us to be disciples (John 15). Baptism is NOT a requirement, it's symbolic of an inner change.

Matthew 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

He sure looks like he did say that. Who do you think said what is contained in Matthew 28:19-20? The main verb is "make disciples" and the participles dependent on that verb are "baptizing" and "teaching" which describe how the disciples are made. The disciples are made by baptizing and teaching.

The 'sacraments' you have 'cited' do not come from Jesus, but from a narrow reading of Scripture. The Bible is meant to be taken as a whole, not chopped up into little packages called sacraments. The whole of the message is love, noncondemnation, and justice. Not Pharisaical legalism that is implied by your sacraments.

There is no Pharasiac legalism. They are given to us by God as gifts. They are not something we do but something God gives us and they sure look like they come from Jesus to me. He instituted the Lord's Supper and He instituted Christian baptism. It is by his authority that we receive these things.

No I do not. I throw out the very thing keeping people from Christ. Now, if I throw out His death, yes, I throw out everything Christ gave us- eternal life.
Why do you think I hate concepts like confirmation? Do answer that to the best of your ability.
Why do you think I abandoned Lutheran teachings? Do answer that also to the best of your ability.

I'm not a big fan of confirmation either but I don't know what that has to do with our discussion.

The forgiveness that we show to others is a result of the forgiveness that God shows to us. But even Matthew 18 shows our inability to keep the law.