Lifetime's Prayers for Bobby

[BigBadWlf]

I don't believe in abortion as a birth control method.

Not a topic being discussed here…do try to keep up

And I don't believe in ignoring AIDS caused by promiscuity and a culture of indiscrimate sex with dozens and hundreds of sex partners as a civil rights issue.

But one need not have sex with hundreds. Just one will do.
Again you keep brining these strange numbers up. Earlier in this thread a link was presented claiming that somehow gays and lesbians are more promiscuous than heterosexuals. The claim was shown to be false yet you continue to try to present this false statement as fact…why?


Interestingly enough it is those interested in denying civil rights that are the ones trying to use the existence of a virus as justification for discrimination.
does the fact that blacks are disproportionably affected by HIV AIDS justify racism?

Utterly tragic. More proof that original sin is a fact. If I had HIV or AIDS, the last thing I would do is have sex with my wife OR anyone else.

Not an answer to my question.
You are trying to claim HIV/AIDS is a gay disease while ignoring the millions of heterosexuals that are infected and who have died from this virus

Trace it back to its cause.

HIV apparently originated in a species of monkey in southern Cameroon, and sometime in the last century it made the leap into the human population.
Again not an answer to my question

The ones my Christian brothers and sisters are caring for right now? Trust me, they are overwhelmed.


You do realize that if Gospel reality were implemented like you guys push condoms, AIDS would disappear from earth?

It would be impossible to eradicate this virus. Think of just how difficult it was to eradicate small pox…and that was only possible because small pox has no other host carrier other than human beings and still it took decades. HIV has non-human hosts

 

[Gilyon]

Personally, it seems to me that if God wanted to make it a "gay" disease he didn't really plan it all that well. Hopefully he'll do better next time, eh?

 

[sk8Joyful]

Yep. You don't "cure" somebody of an attraction. And the "cure" that people get for homosexual fornication is the same
as people get for heterosexual fornication: submission to Jesus Christ.

A person has to be willing to lay down his same sex desires and
follow Christ completely just as we are supposed to do with ALL sin.
So a person may not be "cured" but they can CHOOSE to stop sinning.

The problem with that challenge, as with so many others of an emotional nature,
is that when the only tools you've got in your helping-kit, are a cross & a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail.
Most christians, including most counselors need to get a clue on what's available for helping such individuals change... & heal.

 

[BigBadWlf]

The problem with that challenge, as with so many others of an emotional nature,
is that when the only tools you've got in your helping-kit, are a cross & a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail.
Most christians, including most counselors need to get a clue on what's available for helping such individuals change... & heal.

Change?

You realize that after 40 years ex-gay ministries and so-called reparative therapist have yet to show any evidence that sexual orientation is changeable much less provide evidence that anyone has changed sexual orientation.
They have also failed to provide any evidence to support the theoretical basis of their “therapy”.
And they have failed to provide evidence that what they do is at the very least harmless (Evidence showing that reparative therapy is actively harmful to people however does exist)

 

[Beanieboy]

What I think is part of the harm is that those that don't change, which seems to be most people, are then often told that they didn't want to change enough, that they didn't pray enough, that they don't love God enough...basically telling the person to pray to God about it, and then blaming them when the change doesn't happen.

Further, they are often told that they are not acceptable to God as a gay person, that they cannot truly love God if they are gay, that God can't truly love them....

And they sometimes believe it. I did. I loved God, but believed deep down that he couldn't possibly love me back. For someone who grew up always praying and talking to God, having God be so much a part of my life, to be suddenly told that God found me to be a hateful thing was pretty devastating to my soul. To be told that I couldn't be a Christian because I was gay, constantly told that I wasn't, was really harmful to my relationship with God, one that tried to slowly erode my relationship with him, than make it stronger. And it pit me against God and the church, and forced me to believe one, and deny the other, and I often doubted God because of it. And I doubted God as verses were quoted to suggest that I wasn't God's child, and that my eternity would be spent in hell, when I knew differently, but didn't dare say anything, lest I be questioned and scrutinized.

It's amazing how much harm it does to the soul, apologizing for your very existence, questioning the mercy and love of God, the salvation of Christ, and the gentle voice within you that you know is God. You may even hold up the very truths of Christ and be accused of speaking for the devil, and reading the Gospel's account of Christ and the Pharisees are sometimes your only refuge.

I often wonder if ex-gay ministries pray to God in humility, and ask for guidance, ask if what they are doing is right, if it is God's will. I often wonder if making people ex-gay is to please God, or to make themselves feel more comfortable.

It's such a heavy burden on one's heart. I remember coming out in the 80s, unable to distinguish between the death threats of "the world" where guys would say they wish they could line them all up and shoot them, how disgusting they were, and that of the church quoting the death penalty of Leviticus that would be carried out if only we would go back to God's law, who saw me as an abomination, a hateful thing that disgusted him.

To be told, to consider, or to believe for a moment that even God, the Father of Love, hates you, is devastating. Imagine, just for a moment, carrying that around with you from day to day, seeing no solace from the world within the Church, or even from God, who can't stand the very sight of you.

 

[sk8Joyful]

Change?
after 40 years ex-gay ministries and so-called reparative therapist have yet to show any evidence
that sexual orientation is changeable much less provide evidence that anyone has changed sexual orientation.
They have also failed to provide any evidence to support the theoretical basis of their “therapy”.
And they have failed to provide evidence that what they do, is at the very least harmless
(Evidence showing that reparative therapy is actively harmful to people however does exist)

That some ministers, therapies, & therapists were found to cause harm, does not mean
that other ministers, & Guidance-counselors do.
A few are helpful, albeit with uncommon skill-sets.

 

[sk8Joyful]

What I think is part of the harm is that those that don't change, which seems to be most people, are then often told that they didn't want to change enough, that they didn't pray enough, that they don't love God enough...basically telling the person to pray to God about it, and then blaming them when the change doesn't happen.

How terrible, when people who don't know how to help someone, then end-up blaming them.

Further, they are often told that they are not acceptable to God as a gay person, that they cannot truly love God if they are gay, that God can't truly love them...
And they sometimes believe it. I did. I loved God, but believed deep down that he couldn't possibly love me back.

For someone who grew up always praying and talking to God, having God be so much a part of my life, to be suddenly told that God found me to be a hateful thing was pretty devastating to my soul. To be told that I couldn't be a Christian because I was gay, constantly told that I wasn't, was really harmful to my relationship with God, one that tried to slowly erode my relationship with him, than make it stronger. And it pit me against God and the church, and forced me to believe one, and deny the other, and I often doubted God because of it. And I doubted God as verses were quoted to suggest that I wasn't God's child, and that my eternity would be spent in hell, when I knew differently, but didn't dare say anything, lest I be questioned and scrutinized.

It's such a heavy burden on one's heart. I remember coming out in the 80s, unable to distinguish between the death threats of "the world" where guys would say they wish they could line them all up and shoot them, how disgusting they were, and that of the church quoting the death penalty of Leviticus that would be carried out if only we would go back to God's law, who saw me as an abomination, a hateful thing that disgusted him.

To be told, to consider, or to believe for a moment that even God, the Father of Love, hates you, is devastating. Imagine, just for a moment, carrying that around with you from day to day, seeing no solace from the world within the Church, or even from God, who can't stand the very sight of you.

When you Accepted GOD/Jesus Christ as your personal Savior , He accepted you into His family. You are GOD's child forevermore... for all eternity; and He LOVES you! Know this!!

 

[Andreusz]

^ He just expects you to remain celibate.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

^ He just expects you to remain celibate.

What a HORRIBLE thing. Im mean really. A loving God asking us to forsake our sins so we can live truly happier lives. Horrid! No we should tell the adulterers to keep cheating, the gluttonous to keep eating, the addicted to keep using, the fornicators to keep fornicating, to continue feed power to the prideful, the greedy to keep blackmailing, the hateful to keep hating, the slothful to continue in depression and weakness, and the envious to keep in envying.

Better throw up the discrimination flag so we can quickly shut down rational discussion on these issues.

 

[Psudopod]

What a HORRIBLE thing. Im mean really. A loving God asking us to forsake our sins so we can live truly happier lives. Horrid! No we should tell the adulterers to keep cheating, the gluttonous to keep eating, the addicted to keep using, the fornicators to keep fornicating, to continue feed power to the prideful, the greedy to keep blackmailing, the hateful to keep hating, the slothful to continue in depression and weakness, and the envious to keep in envying.

Better throw up the discrimination flag so we can quickly shut down rational discussion on these issues.

How is sex, in the context of a loving and monogamous marriage, a bad thing like hate, greed, pride etc?

It's discrimition because you are denying people rights for no good reason. You might not like to think of yourself as discriminatory, but that doesn't change the situation.

 

[Andreusz]

What a HORRIBLE thing. Im mean really. A loving God asking us to forsake our sins so we can live truly happier lives. Horrid! No we should tell the adulterers to keep cheating, the gluttonous to keep eating, the addicted to keep using, the fornicators to keep fornicating, to continue feed power to the prideful, the greedy to keep blackmailing, the hateful to keep hating, the slothful to continue in depression and weakness, and the envious to keep in envying.

Better throw up the discrimination flag so we can quickly shut down rational discussion on these issues.

You want to deny me something that you indulge in yourself. And as there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of your god or his son, I would be giving up assured present happiness for a very dubious promised future happiness that has no guarantee whatsoever.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

What a HORRIBLE thing. Im mean really. A loving God asking us to forsake our sins so we can live truly happier lives. Horrid! No we should tell the adulterers to keep cheating, the gluttonous to keep eating, the addicted to keep using, the fornicators to keep fornicating, to continue feed power to the prideful, the greedy to keep blackmailing, the hateful to keep hating, the slothful to continue in depression and weakness, and the envious to keep in envying.

Better throw up the discrimination flag so we can quickly shut down rational discussion on these issues.

Celibacy is a gift of God and only for those who are called to it.

One cannot make a convincing argument that gay people as a whole are called to celibacy.

 

[BigBadWlf]

That some ministers, therapies, & therapists were found to cause harm, does not mean
that other ministers, & Guidance-counselors do.

It has been shown that ex-gay ministries and so called reparative therapies are harmful. Period.
It has been found that 80% of those exiting reparative therapy become clinically depressed.
Suicidal ideation increases by a factor of ten
58% report familial strain either with increased fights with family (usually parents) to domestic violence (again usually at the hands of parents) or being abandoned disowned by family
24% of people in reparative therapy report being verbally or physically abused by their therapist.

Forty years or more in business and these organizations have been unable to show that they are not harmful.
They have also failed to provide evidence that sexual orientation can change. That anyone has changed form homosexual to heterosexual. They have failed to provide evidence for the theoretical basis of their “treatment” along with a long list of other things they have failed to provide evidence for.

A few are helpful, albeit with uncommon skill-sets.

Anyone in the health professions should be dedicated to helping people, not causing harm

 

[No Swansong]

It has been shown that ex-gay ministries and so called reparative therapies are harmful. Period.
It has been found that 80% of those exiting reparative therapy become clinically depressed.
Suicidal ideation increases by a factor of ten
58% report familial strain either with increased fights with family (usually parents) to domestic violence (again usually at the hands of parents) or being abandoned disowned by family
24% of people in reparative therapy report being verbally or physically abused by their therapist.

Forty years or more in business and these organizations have been unable to show that they are not harmful.
They have also failed to provide evidence that sexual orientation can change. That anyone has changed form homosexual to heterosexual. They have failed to provide evidence for the theoretical basis of their “treatment” along with a long list of other things they have failed to provide evidence for.



Anyone in the health professions should be dedicated to helping people, not causing harm

I'd be interested in a citation.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

Celibacy is a gift of God and only for those who are called to it.

One cannot make a convincing argument that gay people as a whole are called to celibacy.

Homosexuals are called to chastity.

Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.



Homosexuality is a cross(trial) some people have to bear. Just as others bear trials of greed, gluttony, adultery, pride, envy and power, lust, etc.

 

[No Swansong]

Homosexuals are called to chastity.

Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.



Homosexuality is a cross(trial) some people have to bear. Just as others bear trials of greed, gluttony, adultery, pride, envy and power, lust, etc.

Would that be from the CCC? If so it is required that you cite the source.

 

[Beanieboy]

Homosexuals are called to chastity.

For the sake of argument, I can understand where you, as a Christian, would bring up the issue to another Christian.

However, seeing that not all gay people are Christian, it seems silly to demand nonChristians to lead a life of celibacy, one that you don't do as example, but instead, demand of others, Christian or not, it appears.

A week ago, I remember feeling a bit down at all of the anger and animosity that I was sensing on the site. As a plea, I asked that Christians join me, and focus on loving your neighbor as themselves.

One "Christian" said that he didn't have to, and wouldn't listen to me, even though what I said was clearly a commandment of Jesus.

Another simply asked, "What does a Buddhist care about a Christian?"

I was asking as a favor, really, but the poster had a point.
So, I then have to ask - what does a Christian care about the lives of non-Christians?
Is there some verse that I'm missing where Jesus tells his disciples to spend most of their time telling other people how to live, while seemingly ignoring the 2x4 the grows from their eyes?
Is homosexuality the cruxt of the Bible? One would think so, because it is talked about so much.

But I don't get Christians telling Non Christians that they should listen to (the particular Christian's interpretation of) the bible, when I have seen so many Christians ignore it themselves.

I am convinced that those who harp and harp on homosexuality are just spiritual bullies. They spend a lot of time focusing on others to assuage the guilt, the lack of love, the perhaps arrogance, that they seem to embody.

The bible says that others will know Christians by their love.
Do they? And if they don't, is God wrong? Should the Christian take it to God in prayer? Should they spend time asking the HS about themselves, their sin, their lack of love?

I scour the Gospel, looking for this kind of Jesus. "Hey! Zaccheus! You are a THIEF! YOU NEED TO REPENT! I'M JESUS. IIIII DON"T SIN!"
Alas, Jesus sees him, and rather than demanding him to get down on his knees and repent, invites him to eat with him, a huge honor back then. And it changed him.

It was only the Pharisees who angered Jesus, who claimed to love God, even preach the Scripture in the Temple. But they were at war with Jesus, not even recognizing the God that they claimed to worship.

It's full of Jesus' mercy, his kindness, his pleas for us to love one another.
But something seems to have gotten lost in the translation.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Homosexuals are called to chastity.

You would do well to discern YOUR OWN call and then live it out to the best of your ability.

Gay people are NOT, as a whole, called to chastity. Many of us were drawn together by God to form long-lasting, monogamous relationships

Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

Whoever wrote that and expected you to believe it has served you a batch of
MEADOW MUFFINS!

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.

That is just NOT true, in any way, shape or fashion.

They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.

This is true, and I compliment you on bringing it forward.

These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

It's a good thing your Pope or Curia or whoever wrote this carries no authority with those of us who are not Roman.

Homosexuality is a cross(trial) some people have to bear. Just as others bear trials of greed, gluttony, adultery, pride, envy and power, lust, etc.

Wrong - it is a blessing from God.

The others you mention do harm to people - homosexuality is just one of the normal orientations.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

You would do well to discern YOUR OWN call and then live it out to the best of your ability.

Gay people are NOT, as a whole, called to chastity. Many of us were drawn together by God to form long-lasting, monogamous relationships



Whoever wrote that and expected you to believe it has served you a batch of
MEADOW MUFFINS!



That is just NOT true, in any way, shape or fashion.



This is true, and I compliment you on bringing it forward.



It's a good thing your Pope or Curia or whoever wrote this carries no authority with those of us who are not Roman.




Wrong - it is a blessing from God.

The others you mention do harm to people - homosexuality is just one of the normal orientations.

Again this is just your opinion and has no authority. Making the statement "It is not so" dosen't nullify what is being said.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Again this is just your opinion and has no authority. Making the statement "It is not so" dosen't nullify what is being said.

Except in this case, it does nullify what was being said by you.
You have no authority to speak the truth of my life. None whatsoever.