Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[Big Mouth Nana]

It is a man made teaching that opposes God's Word. Other than that it is not offensive just false.

To me it is false and offensive. Offensive in the respect that it isn't what God teaches. I have been asking myself for months why Satan would deceive so many people with this lie. He doesn't do anything without a reason, and basically to lead people astray from the truth. Now, why would he do that in regards to the return of Christ..hummmm? Catch many unaware maybe, shake their faith when they find that they are still here during the tribulation, in the hopes that some will be so confused and HUNGRY that they accept the mark that is coming so they can eat...then he can say Got'cha!!! This is going to be a time of testing like we have never known before.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

It is a man made teaching that opposes God's Word. Other than that it is not offensive just false.

Well, it clearly happens before wrath is poured out...on that I'm sure we can agree that the Bible is very clear, right?

What is tripping people up is the difference between "the tribulation" and "the wrath".

I, for one, can see that "the tribulation" is before the sun/moon darken and "the wrath" is after the sun/moon darken which is proven by Matt 24 and Rev 6. Nana can see it as well. She was able to put the three events in order in a previous post:

1. tribulation
2. sun/moon darken
3. wrath

The 2nd thing that trips people up is when the devil reigns. People erroneously believe it is the abom of desolation that happens during "the tribulation". But the devil does not begin to reign until after the sun/moon darken/STARS FALL. The abom of desolation was the desolation of the temple in 70AD as Jesus forewarned about in Mat 23:34-38, Matt 24, Luke 21...as well as Daniel 9:26 which is detailed in 9:27, therefore we have been in "the tribulation" since Christ ascended and will continue to be in it until the sun/moon darken/stars fall...and then things are going to get really nasty because after the sun/moon darken/stars fall will be "the wrath" of God (trumpets, beasts, bowls).

 

[HisdaughterJen]

To me it is false and offensive. Offensive in the respect that it isn't what God teaches. I have been asking myself for months why Satan would deceive so many people with this lie. He doesn't do anything without a reason, and basically to lead people astray from the truth. Now, why would he do that in regards to the return of Christ..hummmm? Catch many unaware maybe, shake their faith when they find that they are still here during the tribulation, in the hopes that some will be so confused and HUNGRY that they accept the mark that is coming so they can eat...then he can say Got'cha!!! This is going to be a time of testing like we have never known before.

From the moment the sun/moon darken/STARS FALL until the coming of Christ (1335 days) is "the wrath" of God....and yes, it will be terrible for those who are here. It is a gazillion times worse than "the tribulation".

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Yes! There's shark attacks and bear attacks and dog maulings and bee swarms among other things all the time!

These are things that happen in nature...untamed things. You get in their way, they are going to attack. This is nothing like the beasts of the earth in that verse who are riding after the pale horse. It says that death and hell follows this rider, and it says them. Are a bunch of wild animals following him? NO, lol!!!!!! It goes along with the beasts who rise up out of the sea in Daniel. God calls them beasts just like the beasts in Revelation.

Well, isn't that what you are doing? You think that wild beasts mean the anti-christ/false prophet!

Do you know what revelation is..and I don't mean the book? I'll go with Gods revealing every time.

The very next time Israel is invaded, God is going to step in.

Yes, during the tribulation.

Preterism? No! I just know that the abomination of desolation was the destruction of the city/sanctuary in 70AD and the tribuation continues from even before that moment until the sun/moon darken.

The anti-christ doesn't even reign until after the sun/moon darken/stars fall. What do you think all this climate change nonsense being pushed at us is about? It's an attempt to keep us in the dark so that when it all starts to happen (the sun/moon darken/stars fall followed by hail, fire, and blood and mountains into the sea, etc.), they'll say, "see, it's all global warming...it's not God".

You just know that the abomination if desolation was in 70 AD..LOL!!!!!!! When did the Antichrist sit down in the temple and proclaim that he was God then? There was destruction of the temple in 70 AD, but that is NOT the one coming. Also the senerio after the destruction doesn't fit the time line of the end of days.
The Antichrist reigns BEFORE the sun/moon/ stars fall. Matthew 24:15 is the abomination of desolation which is the start of the beast reign. The sun/moon/stars event happens in Matt 24:29. Please don't tell people on here that Nana agrees with you on something. I have a reputation to uphold I agree with the tribulation, sun/moon/stars/,wrath, and that's it!! Other then that, you still have the antichrist reigning after the sun/moon/stars falling, and that's not true. Also your "take" on the global warming thing is conjecture and not provable. Sounds like conspiracy theory junk to me.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

These are things that happen in nature...untamed things. You get in their way, they are going to attack. This is nothing like the beasts of the earth in that verse who are riding after the pale horse. It says that death and hell follows this rider, and it says them. Are a bunch of wild animals following him? NO, lol!!!!!! It goes along with the beasts who rise up out of the sea in Daniel. God calls them beasts just like the beasts in Revelation.


Do you know what revelation is..and I don't mean the book? I'll go with Gods revealing every time.

Yes, during the tribulation.


You just know that the abomination if desolation was in 70 AD..LOL!!!!!!! When did the Antichrist sit down in the temple and proclaim that he was God then? There was destruction of the temple in 70 AD, but that is NOT the one coming. All so the senerio after the destruction doesn't fit the time line of the end of days.
The Antichrist reigns BEFORE the sun/moon/ stars fall. Matthew 24:15 is the abomination of desolation which is the start of the beast reign. The sun/moon/stars event happens in Matt 24:29. Please don't tell people on here that Nana agrees with you on something. I have a reputation to uphold I agree with the tribulation, sun/moon/stars/,wrath, and that's it!! Other then that, you still have the antichrist reigning after the sun/moon/stars falling, and that's not true. Also your "take" on the global warming thing is conjecture and not provable. Sounds like conspiracy theory junk to me.

Show me one verse that says the man of sin proclaiming himself God is the "abomination of desolation" spoken of in Daniel.

Jesus made it very clear:



Mat 23:36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

Mat 23:37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Mat 23:38Look, your house is left to you desolate.


compare to:

Dan 9:26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Dan 9:27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] (the city/sanctuary) desolate, even until the consummation (EVEN UNTIL THE END), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Israel)


Daniel 9:27 is describing what happened in the latter part of 9:26.



EVEN UNTIL THE END! The END comes when the sun/moon darken. The tribulation (destruction of the city/sanctuary/dispersal of the people) continues from the abomination of desolation UNTIL THE END!

The 70th week was interrupted "in the midst". Only the last half (plus bowls) remains to be fulfilled (1335 days).

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Show me one verse that says the man of sin proclaiming himself God is the "abomination of desolation" spoken of in Daniel.

You have to take Daniel 11, Matthew 24, 2 Thess 2:3-4 as a whole. Did they have the technology in 70AD to make an image talk? NO. The story unfolds when put together...which is evident that you don't understand all of the story yet. I am assuming that you are of the Protestant faith, but about the most confused person when it comes to end times events.. Daniel 11:31 says this... And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. This is after he proclaims that he is god in the temple, and they make an image unto him..Rev 13:14 &15 ~And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Do you even understand "your house is left to you desolate?" Jesus is talking about Himself regarding Israels denial of who He was if you read Matt 23:37-39 ~ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39) For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord....Without Christ a person IS desolate which in these verses means, left alone; forsaken; lonely; comfortless, forlorn, or wretched.
When Jesus said in Matt 23:36 ~Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. He was talking about the generation that witnesses all of these things together in the next chapter in Matt 24. Matt 24:33-34 ~So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34)Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. He said almost the same thing in Matt 23. Well, we know that generation already has died, so that leaves us right now, and we are seeing them if we have our eyes open!!

 

[HisdaughterJen]

You have to take Daniel 11, Matthew 24, 2 Thess 2:3-4 as a whole. Did they have the technology in 70AD to make an image talk? NO.

So, hold on...you think that the abom of desolation is the image that the false prophet (who comes to power after the first guy gets a head wound) is the abom of desolation?

The story unfolds when put together...which is evident that you don't understand all of the story yet. I am assuming that you are of the Protestant faith, but about the most confused person when it comes to end times events.. Daniel 11:31 says this... And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. This is after he proclaims that he is god in the temple, and they make an image unto him..Rev 13:14 &15 ~And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

So, which is the abom of desolation in your mind? The man of sin standing in the temple and proclaiming himself to be God or the image that is set up by the false prophet that the false prophet forces everyone to worship?

Do you even understand "your house is left to you desolate?" Jesus is talking about Himself regarding Israels denial of who He was if you read Matt 23:37-39 ~ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

The house is the temple. It is the desolation of the city/sanctuary.

39) For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord....Without Christ a person IS desolate which in these verses means, left alone; forsaken; lonely; comfortless, forlorn, or wretched.

This is about the city/sanctuary being desolate not about being lonely without Christ.

When Jesus said in Matt 23:36 ~Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. He was talking about the generation that witnesses all of these things together in the next chapter in Matt 24. Matt 24:33-34 ~So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34)Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. He said almost the same thing in Matt 23. Well, we know that generation already has died, so that leaves us right now, and we are seeing them if we have our eyes open!!

It's about who Jesus was speaking to and what questions he was answering Nana.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Remember, Nana, what you realized:

1. tribulation
2. sun/moon darken
3. wrath

Jesus said the tribulation is cut short, which is BEFORE the sun/moon darken...not the wrath, which comes AFTER the sun/moon darken.

According to Revelation, the things that happen AFTER the sun/moon darken, during the wrath, are the trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses, and the bowls.

Rev 8:1-2 shows us that the trumpets begin when the 7th seal is opened.
The 6th trumpet is the beast killing 1/3 of the earth's population as well as the two witnesses. Therefore, he would have to be reigning (as well as the two witnesses testifying) during the trumpets of the 7th seal.

You see? The reign of the beast is during the wrath of God after the sun/moon darken. The reign of the beast is not during the tribulation, as Jesus defined it.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Remember, Nana, what you realized:

1. tribulation
2. sun/moon darken (6th seal)
3. wrath (7th seal)

Jesus said the tribulation is cut short, which is BEFORE the sun/moon darken...not the wrath, which comes AFTER the sun/moon darken.

According to Revelation, the things that happen AFTER the sun/moon darken, during the wrath, are the trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses, and the bowls.

Rev 8:1-2 shows us that the trumpets begin when the 7th seal is opened.
The 6th trumpet is the beast killing 1/3 of the earth's population as well as the two witnesses. Therefore, he would have to be reigning (as well as the two witnesses testifying) during the trumpets of the 7th seal.

You see? The reign of the beast is during the wrath of God after the sun/moon darken. The reign of the beast is not during the tribulation, as Jesus defined it.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

what was the babbling in charlie brown.....

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Big Mouth Nana You have to take Daniel 11, Matthew 24, 2 Thess 2:3-4 as a whole. Did they have the technology in 70AD to make an image talk? NO.

Nah, they used good ole fashion sorcery

Malachi 3:5 And I come near to ye for judgement and I become a witness making haste in ones doing sorceries/3784 kashaph and in ones adultering......

Revelation 9:21 And not they reform out of the murders of them, nor out from their Sorceries/far-makeiwn <5331> ,...........

 

[Breckmin]

Jesus said the tribulation is cut short, which is BEFORE the sun/moon darken...not the wrath, which comes AFTER the sun/moon darken.

Jen,
haven't you converted to post trib yet??

A lot of your position is actually consistent with post trib young earth
creationists who say that there are four thousand years, then two
thousand years, then one thousand for the day of rest.

There is actually an interesting theory (which I do not subscribe to)
which says Adam was formed from the ground on the fourth day and
Eve was formed from his rib on the sixth day (to explain Genesis 2).

The problem is, before you run with this (this is ALL induction) is that
it doesn't really fit with the pre trib position unless you change the
nomenclature (tribulation, day of the Lord) like you have done.

Your position is like a 2000 year trib instead of a seven year trib. If
you believe the Day of the Lord is the beginning of the millinium, this
actually works better with post-trib.

I often get asked "Do you really think God would leave the church
here during the tribulation (they are thinking seven years and not
hung up on English words)? My response is always: "He did allow
members of the early Church to be fed to the lions didn't He?"
Also, why is it o.k. to leave tribulational believers here (or wrath
believers) and have them suffer and die during the seven years, but
the other part of the church gets snatched up??

One rapture. 2nd Coming NOT 3rd Coming. It's as easy as counting
to 2 or 7. (seventh trumpet is the last trumpet).
It's a gathering before Armageddon (war).

Thief in the Night is at the end of the tribulation in Rev. 16:15.

God is working to teach pre-tribbers that post trib is the historical
position of the church.

God bless, Jen.

Prayer helps us all remove our own desires.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

Have i become a preterist now? and hence no longer welcome on the forum. I think i may have become so. I know i am a historicist.. but full-on preterist.. i'm not sure. I no longer think that Daniel's 70 weeks has a 'gap theory'.. i think Daniel is historical. I dont believe in a future antichrist.. the antichrist was a historical figure/s who persecuted the Christians throughout the ages.
Jesus talking about the desolution of the temple.. historical, Romans invade.. Christians escape Jerusalem.
Why would he be warning people in the end of days, presumably Christians, about a temple, as the temple was replaced by the Christian people/revelation..

 

[Super Kal]

well, there's a difference between Historicism and Preterism...

Historicism teaches that the book of Revelation is neither past nor future, but happening right now... it encompasses all of history

Preterism teaches that the book of Revelation was finished at the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

well, there's a difference between Historicism and Preterism...

Historicism teaches that the book of Revelation is neither past nor future, but happening right now... it encompasses all of history

Preterism teaches that the book of Revelation was finished at the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD

Oh well then I'm not a preterist. But a historicist yes. My focus now is on Revelation. I re-read it a few days ago. I could see no re-built temple, or any of that stuff.. just a final beast empire of ten, and the beast with two horns, which at the moment is USA/UK, but i might change my mind.
The final beast in Daniel is Rome, but Rome never went away.. it survived in the east until 1440'ish and in the west as the Holy Roman Empire,.. i think that that final beast was/is the final empire of a continuous Rome.. with Roman customs/religion script/language, as opposd to the eastern empire of the Persians, which was always replaced as the primary world power by the Roman empire.

 

[ezek33]

Jen,
haven't you converted to post trib yet??

A lot of your position is actually consistent with post trib young earth
creationists who say that there are four thousand years, then two
thousand years, then one thousand for the day of rest.

There is actually an interesting theory (which I do not subscribe to)
which says Adam was formed from the ground on the fourth day and
Eve was formed from his rib on the sixth day (to explain Genesis 2).

The problem is, before you run with this (this is ALL induction) is that
it doesn't really fit with the pre trib position unless you change the
nomenclature (tribulation, day of the Lord) like you have done.

Your position is like a 2000 year trib instead of a seven year trib. If
you believe the Day of the Lord is the beginning of the millinium, this
actually works better with post-trib.

I often get asked "Do you really think God would leave the church
here during the tribulation (they are thinking seven years and not
hung up on English words)? My response is always: "He did allow
members of the early Church to be fed to the lions didn't He?"
Also, why is it o.k. to leave tribulational believers here (or wrath
believers) and have them suffer and die during the seven years, but
the other part of the church gets snatched up??

One rapture. 2nd Coming NOT 3rd Coming. It's as easy as counting
to 2 or 7. (seventh trumpet is the last trumpet).
It's a gathering before Armageddon (war).

Thief in the Night is at the end of the tribulation in Rev. 16:15.

God is working to teach pre-tribbers that post trib is the historical
position of the church.

God bless, Jen.

Prayer helps us all remove our own desires.

In Christ,
Michael

I agree with you understanding that the rapture is post trib is as easy as counting to 2 or 7 but somehow I do not think Jen will get it.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

I agree with you understanding that the rapture is post trib is as easy as counting to 2 or 7 but somehow I do not think Jen will get it.

there seems to be a majority vote for post trib, me included, perhaps pre-trib is more of a minority group.. perhaps with people who shout louder and get that opinion into popular thinking. I dont think anyone can make a case for pre-trib, and it is certainly a 'theory of men'.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

there seems to be a majority vote for post trib, me included, perhaps pre-trib is more of a minority group.. perhaps with people who shout louder and get that opinion into popular thinking. I dont think anyone can make a case for pre-trib, and it is certainly a 'theory of men'.

Five years ago, there were only 2 people that I can recall in this forum that were post -trib, and there were more people here then. I am amazed at how many there are now in here. Looks to me like God is trying to squash the lie.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Jen,
haven't you converted to post trib yet??

A lot of your position is actually consistent with post trib young earth
creationists who say that there are four thousand years, then two
thousand years, then one thousand for the day of rest.

There is actually an interesting theory (which I do not subscribe to)
which says Adam was formed from the ground on the fourth day and
Eve was formed from his rib on the sixth day (to explain Genesis 2).

The problem is, before you run with this (this is ALL induction) is that
it doesn't really fit with the pre trib position unless you change the
nomenclature (tribulation, day of the Lord) like you have done.

Your position is like a 2000 year trib instead of a seven year trib. If
you believe the Day of the Lord is the beginning of the millinium, this
actually works better with post-trib.

I often get asked "Do you really think God would leave the church
here during the tribulation (they are thinking seven years and not
hung up on English words)? My response is always: "He did allow
members of the early Church to be fed to the lions didn't He?"
Also, why is it o.k. to leave tribulational believers here (or wrath
believers) and have them suffer and die during the seven years, but
the other part of the church gets snatched up??

One rapture. 2nd Coming NOT 3rd Coming. It's as easy as counting
to 2 or 7. (seventh trumpet is the last trumpet).
It's a gathering before Armageddon (war).

Thief in the Night is at the end of the tribulation in Rev. 16:15.

God is working to teach pre-tribbers that post trib is the historical
position of the church.

God bless, Jen.

Prayer helps us all remove our own desires.

In Christ,
Michael

Of course the rapture is after the tribulation. I have been saying that all along. But the tribulation has been going on since Christ ascended and sent out his "four dreadful judgments" on Jerusalem and the world. When that tribulation ends, the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath begins (at the darkening of the sun/moon) and then comes the trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls of the 7th seal.

1. Christ's death, ascension
2. Tribulation (seals 1-4) riders who continually ride since Christ's ascension
3. Rapture (seal #5) - giving of white robes, "fine linen, clean and bright" to the Bride
4. Day of Wrath/Day of the Lord at sun/moon darkening (Seal #6)
5. Outpouring of wrath including the trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls (Seal #7)
THEN, Christ comes on the clouds.

NOWHERE does it say that "the tribulation" is seven years long.
NOWHERE does it say that the abomination of desolation is the anti-christ.
NOWHERE does it say that "the tribulation" is the reign of the devil.

 

[ezek33]

there seems to be a majority vote for post trib, me included, perhaps pre-trib is more of a minority group.. perhaps with people who shout louder and get that opinion into popular thinking. I dont think anyone can make a case for pre-trib, and it is certainly a 'theory of men'.

Five years ago, there were only 2 people that I can recall in this forum that were post -trib, and there were more people here then. I am amazed at how many there are now in here. Looks to me like God is trying to squash the lie.

I agree Nana, when I first realized that the rapture was post trib I often if I was the only one that saw it, but over the years many have come to this truth. I believe God is opening the eyes of His Church to the truth because the end is near.