• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Could Genesis be literal?

Status
Not open for further replies.

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Yet if one just used "Malthusian" natural selection thinking, why wouldn't the plants do what the bacteria do (and our cells are thought to contain processes that were once symbiotic).

Wouldn't it be for the chemical reasons shernren went over? If plants could simply "do what the bacteria do" then plants other than legumes would be fixing nitrogen as well and the legumes would not need to form a symbiotic relationship with bacteria to do the job for them.

Nothing is "simple" in the bio-chemical real world, this stuff is not "easy" - it might be easy to write out an equation, try engineering it to make it work and balance etc......

ex....

It's not simple, but that doesn't mean it is not within the potentiality of natural selection to produce it, given the raw material of genetic changes. What is really difficult is for human intelligence to figure out what the key developments were.
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
Its called Nitrogen Fixation see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_fixation

Splitting apart CO2 isn't that easy when you write out the KCAL.

Energy difference is only half the story, you also have to consider the activation energy in breaking N2 bonds. Here's an analogy: when you attack a castle, you bring ladders and siege equipment. Why? After all, the ground inside the castle is on the same level as the ground outside. Thus in theory you don't need to overcome gravity to get in. Of course, the difference is because there are high walls in your way: you need to get over the wall to get to the other side.

In the same way N2 bonds have a very high activation energy. That's why they're stable. I don't know the actual values of the activation energies offhand but hey, that's the reason the Haber process has to be done at 150-250 atmospheres, and at 200-400 degrees Celsius.

You drive in a car that burns carbon fuels. Far more carbon available on the ground than in the air.

Just as with Nitrogen fertilzer, if we were to do it, we'd get the carbon from the ground. Our cars don't run on CO2 in the air for example..... write out the KCAL.

Yes, there's far more carbon available on the ground than in the air now. After 3 billion years of plants putting it in the ground (and sea) for us, you'd expect that kind of outcome.

And remember that plants don't take CO2 out of the air for energy. Plants get energy from the sun, then put this into carbon compounds that either store energy or serve structural functions (or both). If you could build your house literally from thin air, wouldn't you? Plants do it every day, and that's what their photosynthesis is really about. Oxygen's just a necessary byproduct of that.

When is the last time you saw a man made manufacturing plant take solar energy and turn it into sugar?

When was the last time you saw someone build a house or fill a fuel tank with sugar?

Anyhow - what was your point again? :p
 
Upvote 0

exquirer

Junior Member
Oct 16, 2007
159
3
✟22,809.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Wouldn't it be for the chemical reasons shernren went over? If plants could simply "do what the bacteria do" then plants other than legumes would be fixing nitrogen as well and the legumes would not need to form a symbiotic relationship with bacteria to do the job for them.



It's not simple, but that doesn't mean it is not within the potentiality of natural selection to produce it, given the raw material of genetic changes. What is really difficult is for human intelligence to figure out what the key developments were.
Natural selection - which really isn't defined - does control it because it is a symbiotic relationship. Its the small things, the base things that confuse the wise.

If the plant's absorbed the ability of bacteria to take N2 from the air, which is a process that exists in biology (our DNA has apparently absorbed bacteria's job in certain aspect), then what natural selection would be at play? They couldn't have done that in the last 3 billion years?

Natural selection is not defined, Malthusian doctrine is not sufficient or necessary and gradualism is untrue according to the fossil record, that shows rapid species development and adaptation.

As a mechanism, the intrinsic logic, intelligence and order of biological machines (and they are very complex machines), as well as the reality of the ecosystem itself point to an intelligent creator infused in the Universe itself (the Very Good).

The thing that amazes me, and many other theistic scientific types, is how obvious this fact is - William Paley talked about finding a watch in a field and realizing it was intelligently designed. We find in the field rapidly adapting organisms, machines with factories, motors, engines, information transmission systems, elegant super electonics, self replication, adaptation and cooperation and symbiosis......

God hides in plain sight, intelligence and beauty surrounds us, and people talk about how their science is so vaunted. As a scientific type, the first thing you have to get a handle on is the fundamental limitations of science, methods etc... and as an engineer, ways around them.

ex....
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

exquirer

Junior Member
Oct 16, 2007
159
3
✟22,809.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Energy difference is only half the story, you also have to consider the activation energy in breaking N2 bonds. Here's an analogy: when you attack a castle, you bring ladders and siege equipment. Why? After all, the ground inside the castle is on the same level as the ground outside. Thus in theory you don't need to overcome gravity to get in. Of course, the difference is because there are high walls in your way: you need to get over the wall to get to the other side.

In the same way N2 bonds have a very high activation energy. That's why they're stable. I don't know the actual values of the activation energies offhand but hey, that's the reason the Haber process has to be done at 150-250 atmospheres, and at 200-400 degrees Celsius.
And in bacteria - in cells - capacitors are in cells, a cell can act as a capacitor. ie. break it apart in an electric arc that is timed. Surely nature, that can invent a 3D seeing person through natural selection can create a spark to rip apart N2 locally (is that how bacteria do it? - bet there is some out there).

If you a see a system tend to order (entropy) then there has to be an intelligence intrinsic in the ordering of that system (See James Clerc Maxwell).
Yes, there's far more carbon available on the ground than in the air now. After 3 billion years of plants putting it in the ground (and sea) for us, you'd expect that kind of outcome.
There was plenty of carbon on the ground available in the Cambrian explosion.
And remember that plants don't take CO2 out of the air for energy. Plants get energy from the sun, then put this into carbon compounds that either store energy or serve structural functions (or both). If you could build your house literally from thin air, wouldn't you? Plants do it every day, and that's what their photosynthesis is really about. Oxygen's just a necessary byproduct of that.
Plants also burn their own sugars as you pointed out earlier.
When was the last time you saw someone build a house or fill a fuel tank with sugar?
That is not the point. The point was that it would be allot easier breaking apart N2 than converting CO2 to sugar using the atmosphere in any engineered process we could apply today with our current technology.

Again, you do it and then tell me how easy one is versus the other. Many people say its "simply natural selection" and "evolution" and "photosynthesis" and look at the easy chemical reactions etc...... Such over simplification is not indicative of deep study or thought. Frankly, natural selection sounds like a religion, there is no real basis or definition or theory. Yes and I read Origins etc.... there is nothing there, in engineering and economics we don't use that sort of thinking because it so far it doesn't seem to work very well. And people who practiced social Darwinism...... oh well.
Anyhow - what was your point again? :p
God raised Adam from the dust of the ground.

ex....
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Natural selection - which really isn't defined - .....

Natural selection is not defined,.....

Frankly, natural selection sounds like a religion, there is no real basis or definition or theory.

Sounds like you need to do more study on the subject. Natural selection most certainly is defined. It is the difference in reproductive success between two groups of a population. Or, if you like, the increase of the occurrence of one allele over another in the gene pool.

During research on the Galapagos finches (presented in popular form in The Beak of the Finch by Jonathan Weiner) Peter and Rosemary Grant were able to document the selective impact of a severe drought on the finch population of Daphne Major (the island that was the focus of their research). They have now gone beyond measuring length and depth of beaks to documenting which genes are responsible for the formation of beaks and how the expression of these genes in embryos determines the eventual size of beak.

Bruce Lahn, at the University of Chicago, is only one of several researchers who have documented the impact of natural selection on the evolution of the human brain.

Why do you describe it as having no definition?

Malthusian doctrine is not sufficient or necessary and gradualism is untrue according to the fossil record, that shows rapid species development and adaptation.

I often wonder just what IDists are objecting to. Is it the neo-Darwinian synthesis of the 1940s or the current understanding of evolution or Darwin's original thesis--or something outside of science altogether. The notion that "gradualism is untrue according to the fossil record" depends on the notion that "gradual" means "slow but constant incremental steps". And actually much of the fossil record does show that--in spite of Stephen J. Gould's assertions to the contrary. But although IDists love to quote Gould on what we allegedly do not see in the fossil record, they never quote him on what we do see: the localization of incremental variations in a short time frame. This is, in fact, a scenario that does apply to some lineages--though perhaps not as frequently as Gould suggested.

But does the theory of evolution stand or fall on whether the rate of evolution is constant or variable? Of course not. In both cases evolution depends on the accumulation of incremental variations by Darwinian mechanisms. And over the long term, considering the periods of stasis as well as those of change, it is, on average, gradual.


If the plant's absorbed the ability of bacteria to take N2 from the air, which is a process that exists in biology (our DNA has apparently absorbed bacteria's job in certain aspect), then what natural selection would be at play? They couldn't have done that in the last 3 billion years?

I don't know what you are speaking of here. In leguminous plants it is the symbiotic bacteria that fixed the nitrogen. The plant has not absorbed the ability. It has established a symbiotic relationship with the bacteria. And they are not absorbing the N2 from the atmosphere. They are taking up nitrogen from the groundwater.

Why do you see no role for natural selection in favoring legumes which had established the symbiotic relationship over those which had not?

As for 3 billion years---3 billion years ago there were no plants. The fossil record of plants goes back only 480 million years. Though this article suggests that plants themselves may have inhabited the land even before the Cambrian explosion. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1482382.stm



As a mechanism, the intrinsic logic, intelligence and order of biological machines (and they are very complex machines), as well as the reality of the ecosystem itself point to an intelligent creator infused in the Universe itself (the Very Good).

The thing that amazes me, and many other theistic scientific types, is how obvious this fact is - William Paley talked about finding a watch in a field and realizing it was intelligently designed. We find in the field rapidly adapting organisms, machines with factories, motors, engines, information transmission systems, elegant super electonics, self replication, adaptation and cooperation and symbiosis......

I have no quarrel with this. It is just irrelevant to a conversation on evolution. Watches and such items need human designers because they do not self-replicate and have no mechanism to introduce their own design changes or test them for workability. Living things, thanks to the Creator, have all of these--and we call the sum total of inheritance (self-replication), mutation (proposed design changes) and quality control (natural selection) "evolution".

I would agree that this marvellous process and its capacity to generate marvellously intricate and adaptive designs is indeed testimony to an intelligent Creator.

God hides in plain sight, intelligence and beauty surrounds us,

Amen. And I think the salient point here is that God hides in plain sight. IDists seem to want to take away that veil of hiddenness and turn God into a scientific hypothesis.


As a scientific type, the first thing you have to get a handle on is the fundamental limitations of science, methods etc... and as an engineer, ways around them.

And isn't that just what we have been talking about: some fundamental chemical limits on what is possible re photosynthesis and nitrogen fixation?

Sometimes non-biologists seem to want to treat evolution as a kind of magic that can do anything. But there are real constraints on biological possibilities, starting with the basic constraints of physical properties and chemical reactions and going on to the inherent constraints of inheritance and development.


Surely nature, that can invent a 3D seeing person through natural selection can create a spark to rip apart N2 locally (is that how bacteria do it? - bet there is some out there).

Maybe, but if it hasn't it hasn't. Just because something is theoretically possible doesn't mean it must be built--whether by humans or by nature. And if nature invented such a thing tomorrow, that doesn't do anything for plants, since they have to stick with what they have inherited from their ancestors. Even if it showed up in a plant, it would only be passed on to the descendants of that plant. So possibly some time in the future, if it were advantageous to plants, all plants would have it.

Of course that would mean that all of the plants we are currently familiar with would be extinct. Only descendants of the plant which first evolved its own bacteria-independent nitrogen fixation system would survive. And depending on the ecological effect of plants using a different system of nitrogen fixation, possibly most of the animals and fungi as well.

If you a see a system tend to order (entropy) then there has to be an intelligence intrinsic in the ordering of that system (See James Clerc Maxwell).

The question is what is the locus of the intelligence. IDists seem to want to locate the intelligence in the mechanism or process. They fault Darwinian mechanisms for being "blind" or "unintelligent". In a time when we have so much done with automation, that seems foolish to me. We know that the apparently intelligent activities of computers are not innate to the machinery or even to their programming. The intelligence is in the programmer. Why not see evolution as the program and the Creator as the programmer?



There was plenty of carbon on the ground available in the Cambrian explosion.

But that was well after the time living organisms developed the capacity for photosynthesis--possibly well after the evolution of the first plants (see linked article above). Photosynthetic bacteria go back 3.5 billion years. The Cambrian explosion was just over 0.5 billion years ago.

Furthermore it is now widely agreed that the chloroplast which confers photosynthetic capacity on plants is the remnant of a photosynthetic bacterium which became an endosymbiont of a eukaryotic cell---so on that basis, the photosynthetic capacity of plants is based on that of photosynthetic bacteria--a capacity that was developed in the absence of readily available CO2 on the ground. Plants still use the photosynthetic function they inherited from that bacterial ancestor of the chloroplast.
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
That is not the point. The point was that it would be allot easier breaking apart N2 than converting CO2 to sugar using the atmosphere in any engineered process we could apply today with our current technology.

Again, you do it and then tell me how easy one is versus the other. Many people say its "simply natural selection" and "evolution" and "photosynthesis" and look at the easy chemical reactions etc...... Such over simplification is not indicative of deep study or thought. Frankly, natural selection sounds like a religion, there is no real basis or definition or theory. Yes and I read Origins etc.... there is nothing there, in engineering and economics we don't use that sort of thinking because it so far it doesn't seem to work very well. And people who practiced social Darwinism...... oh well.

Hmm, that's interesting. It's worth pointing out that any decentralized economy implicitly trusts the power of chance. Sure, economics courses start with this idealized figure of the perfectly rational agent, the person who logically thinks through every spending decision and utilizes his money in the most efficient manner.

Yeah right. I don't buy books based on how much money I have (otherwise I would never :p ), I buy based on how I'm feeling that day. So does practically every other consumer in a Western economy. The whole darn thing is built on the premise that somehow, all these billions of random interactions (many of which will be inherently quite irrational, no thanks to advertising) will work to redistribute money, time and effort precisely to the industries that need it most.

The amazing thing is that the same Americans who believe that such a (non-)system would work, and who would actively oppose strong government control of economy, somehow express grave skepticism about the idea that (God, through) nature can through billions of random interactions build up the ecosystem we have today. The same people who believe in Intelligent Design for biology would never believe in intelligent design for economies - "that's socialism!"

Anyhow - once again. N2 bonds are strong. In industrial processes we use many hundred times atmospheric pressure just to make the reaction go in the direction we want. C=O bonds aren't as strong, and they're polarized, which means that chemically speaking there are a whole lot more options.

Big reaction vats, high pressure, high heat, when you get to impose things like that you can let thermodynamic considerations override kinetic considerations. (Chemistry jargon.) But:

And in bacteria - in cells - capacitors are in cells, a cell can act as a capacitor. ie. break it apart in an electric arc that is timed. Surely nature, that can invent a 3D seeing person through natural selection can create a spark to rip apart N2 locally (is that how bacteria do it? - bet there is some out there).

No, life doesn't do reaction vats. Life evolved in a dilute aqueous environment. Therefore, all of life's chemical processes involve the chemistry of dilute aqueous solutions. Yes, some cells act as capacitors - but there's only so far you can go with water and lipids, commercial capacitors use all kinds of crazy chemicals that life doesn't have access to chemically.
 
Upvote 0

exquirer

Junior Member
Oct 16, 2007
159
3
✟22,809.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Sounds like you need to do more study on the subject. Natural selection most certainly is defined. It is the difference in reproductive success between two groups of a population. Or, if you like, the increase of the occurrence of one allele over another in the gene pool.
That is an observation - it doesn't go to cause nor does it describe a predictable mechanism that can be verified.

A mechanism that is advanced, intrinsically intelligent goes to an advanced intrinsically intelligent cause.

Natural selection used to be defined as sexual, then the strong survive etc.... its defined as whatever/whenever someone pretends to understand something beautiful/transcendent and Holy, and trivialize it..... Its a religion - not a science, and its a poor religion that has improvished us to the point where we are poised to destroy one another - to the point where the nations rage furiously together and the people imagine a vain thing.

From something beautiful and very real and true:
And Job answered and said, .... But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?

In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. Doth not the ear try words? and the mouth taste his meat? With the ancient is wisdom; and in length of days understanding. With him is wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding.


If people cannot learn from the Earth, or from the fowls of the air, or of the beasts that there is an intelligence, simple intrinsic and compound, then no reason of mine will ever move them.

ex.....
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

exquirer

Junior Member
Oct 16, 2007
159
3
✟22,809.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Hmm, that's interesting. It's worth pointing out that any decentralized economy implicitly trusts the power of chance.
entropy, entropy entropy.
Sure, economics courses start with this idealized figure of the perfectly rational agent, the person who logically thinks through every spending decision and utilizes his money in the most efficient manner.
A fool and our money are soon partners.
Yeah right. I don't buy books based on how much money I have (otherwise I would never :p ), I buy based on how I'm feeling that day. So does practically every other consumer in a Western economy. The whole darn thing is built on the premise that somehow, all these billions of random interactions (many of which will be inherently quite irrational, no thanks to advertising) will work to redistribute money, time and effort precisely to the industries that need it most.

The amazing thing is that the same Americans who believe that such a (non-)system would work, and who would actively oppose strong government control of economy, somehow express grave skepticism about the idea that (God, through) nature can through billions of random interactions build up the ecosystem we have today. The same people who believe in Intelligent Design for biology would never believe in intelligent design for economies - "that's socialism!"
Natural selection and evolution is not random. - Even Dawkins chokes on evolution and "random."
Anyhow - once again. N2 bonds are strong. In industrial processes we use many hundred times atmospheric pressure just to make the reaction go in the direction we want. C=O bonds aren't as strong, and they're polarized, which means that chemically speaking there are a whole lot more options.
I think sugar releases 686 KCAL and BNF requires 60-72 KCAL??? Could you double check that, and remember entropy, entropy, entropy.....

But what difference does it make with all that sunlight and Nitrogen around?

If "natural selection" is intrinsically inefficient, Paley was right.

ex....
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
From something beautiful and very real and true:
And Job answered and said, .... But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee...
You mean like Darwin learned from the Galapagos finches?
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
That is an observation - it doesn't go to cause nor does it describe a predictable mechanism that can be verified.


Differential reproductive success IS the mechanism of natural selection. They are basically the same thing. And it is predictable as many studies have shown. You simply have to identify a factor in the ecology that promotes differential reproductive success.


In the 1970s in the Galapagos, it was lack of rainfall. In some experiments with guppies it was the presence or absence of certain predators. In a speciation study with fruit flies (and in many studies with bacteria) it was the nature of the food source. In many butterfly populations it is the presence and patterning of colours (which has implications both for predation and for mating).

The particular factor can vary--in fact species are usually impacted by several factors at once. But the mechanism of differential reproductive success to adapt the species to its environment remains constant, predictable and measurable.

A mechanism that is advanced, intrinsically intelligent goes to an advanced intrinsically intelligent cause.


I will leave it to you to decide if natural selection qualifies. To me it seems quite elegant.

Natural selection used to be defined as sexual, then the strong survive etc.... its defined as whatever/whenever someone pretends to understand something beautiful/transcendent and Holy, and trivialize it.....

It was never "the strong survive". It was "survival of the fittest". The assumption that the strongest are always the fittest is not borne out in real life. Wit can overcome strength, for example. So can social cooperation. The factor that introduces differential reproductive success--whether it is strength or wit or cooperation or camouflage--is the fitness factor. Sexual selection is simply one factor that introduces differential reproductive success.

The definition of allele change (produced through differential reproductive success) has been standard for over half a century now.

Do I understand the last part of your paragraph correctly? Are you saying that to understand what is beautiful and holy is to trivialize it? That seems a very strange proposition to me.
 
Upvote 0

exquirer

Junior Member
Oct 16, 2007
159
3
✟22,809.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Differential reproductive success IS the mechanism of natural selection. They are basically the same thing. And it is predictable as many studies have shown. You simply have to identify a factor in the ecology that promotes differential reproductive success.
Many of those studies were actually proved later to be false. Consider the moths - they don't alight on tree trunks (except when released a particular way at a particular time of day).

It was later found the genes adapted in accordance with the pollution on their own - the adaptation took place but for chemical reasons.

A priori?
In the 1970s in the Galapagos, it was lack of rainfall. In some experiments with guppies it was the presence or absence of certain predators. In a speciation study with fruit flies (and in many studies with bacteria) it was the nature of the food source. In many butterfly populations it is the presence and patterning of colours (which has implications both for predation and for mating).
Population dynamics is not causal. If I do a study and note gross changes in population, that does not go to cause in the genome for adaptations moving toward "improvements". More likely a machine will just stop running - it takes a heck of allot of smarts to make something that adapts towards improvements all the time... and they have to be improvements in order to survive, but to survive means they overcome.

The laws of statistics include Heisenberg uncertainty and in general, entropy. Informational entropy is very real.

My living is getting around those things - it takes a great deal of "intelligence" and "design."
The particular factor can vary--in fact species are usually impacted by several factors at once. But the mechanism of differential reproductive success to adapt the species to its environment remains constant, predictable and measurable.
That is not true. You have no idea how something is going to adapt a priori unless you construct a one dimensional flawed study to prove your point (like the moths). Then years later, when people critically analyze the data, and find that chemical changes were closer to cause....
I will leave it to you to decide if natural selection qualifies. To me it seems quite elegant.
And to me non-existent going to cause.
It was never "the strong survive". It was "survival of the fittest".
Actually, when pressed Chuck said it was the strong survive and the weak die, though that was years later when pressed about it. Many people took it that way, with horrible effects because science has become a sort of religion of nations since Christendom fell. "Why do the nations...."
The assumption that the strongest are always the fittest is not borne out in real life. Wit can overcome strength, for example. So can social cooperation. The factor that introduces differential reproductive success--whether it is strength or wit or cooperation or camouflage--is the fitness factor. Sexual selection is simply one factor that introduces differential reproductive success.
Let not the strong man boast in his strength, or the wise man in his wisdom, or the rich man in his wealth.....
The definition of allele change (produced through differential reproductive success) has been standard for over half a century now.
ie. it changed when convenient.
Do I understand the last part of your paragraph correctly? Are you saying that to understand what is beautiful and holy is to trivialize it? That seems a very strange proposition to me.
No to say death forms life when it is actually life that overcomes (yes - adapts) over death is a fundamental error and not part of the overwhelming reality or evidence.

William Paley was right - he was speaking about entropy and it is so fundamental to statistical, mechanical, informational reality - that to say well "natural selection" covers that is false. Natural selection is inherently statistical and thus inherently limited by statistics unless there is a mechanism that intrinsically overcomes through the essence of its intelligent pattern or nature. James Maxwell is very instructive.

You can't use statistics to make a real machine that is useful, unless you make a machine within the statistics that adapts to statistical change. And the level to which the machine arises is limited to the intelligence intrinsic in it in the first place. In that case, it is not the environment that governs the machine, but the machine that overcomes the environment - in which case....

Consider for example genetic algorithms. Not meant for evolutionary study, but you have to tune those things and put allot of smarts in to get a simple optimized answer.

Those are fundamental laws that govern reality, where entropy is very real. Which reminds me, I have to get to work....

Physics, information flow, statistics, logic, mechanics, fluid dynamics, capacitance, inductance, resistance, chemical balance, energy, heat transfer.... all these things are tricky to balance in a machine. And there is no machine made by man that comes close to a simple cell, or the simplistic cell that existed on this planet. We are surrounded by incredibly sophisticated machines - so much so - we take them completely for granted and then treat one another as machines....

A statistical explanation breaks down fundamentally at that point where the mechanics of the machine is realized, and that is why ID has gained traction - because people realize the fundamental absurdity of using an set of random statistics to produce a non-random outcome (finally - Maxwell warned of this a century ago).

If its not random (e.g. Dawkins would correctly point), why go to statistical studies that show a population (statistical) response? Its a contradiction in essence.

ex.....
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
Many of those studies were actually proved later to be false. Consider the moths - they don't alight on tree trunks (except when released a particular way at a particular time of day).

AHHH!!1!one! The PRATTs! They blindses my eyes!

It's been such a long time since I saw one of these.

Have you been reading Icons of Evolution by any chance?

This is what the real data looks like:

majerus_table6_1.gif


As you can see, peppered moths do spend significant time on tree trunks - and the remainder of their time is spent on branches and trunk joints, which are colored just the same in the same area. It's like a kid saying "I've only been sitting in front of the TV for 15 minutes! It's true!" whereas he's been lying in front of it for three hours. The location doesn't change the argument much.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wells/iconob.html#moths

It was later found the genes adapted in accordance with the pollution on their own - the adaptation took place but for chemical reasons.

It's time to break out my favorite XKCD graphic:

wikipedian_protester.png


Population dynamics is not causal. If I do a study and note gross changes in population, that does not go to cause in the genome for adaptations moving toward "improvements". More likely a machine will just stop running - it takes a heck of allot of smarts to make something that adapts towards improvements all the time... and they have to be improvements in order to survive, but to survive means they overcome.

The laws of statistics include Heisenberg uncertainty and in general, entropy. Informational entropy is very real.

My living is getting around those things - it takes a great deal of "intelligence" and "design."

Dude, you gotta keep with the times. Your field's starting to change, y'know? ;)

http://www.informatics.sussex.ac.uk/users/adrianth/ices96/paper.html

Abstract: `Intrinsic' Hardware Evolution is the use of artificial evolution -- such as a Genetic Algorithm -- to design an electronic circuit automatically, where each fitness evaluation is the measurement of a circuit's performance when physically instantiated in a real reconfigurable VLSI chip. This paper makes a detailed case-study of the first such application of evolution directly to the configuration of a Field Programmable Gate Array (FPGA). Evolution is allowed to explore beyond the scope of conventional design methods, resulting in a highly efficient circuit with a richer structure and dynamics and a greater respect for the natural properties of the implementation medium than is usual. The application is a simple, but not toy, problem: a tone-discrimination task. Practical details are considered throughout.

Exploring Beyond the Scope of Human Design: Automatic generation of FPGA configurations through artificial evolution
http://www.informatics.sussex.ac.uk/users/adrianth/ascot/paper/paper.html

Evolution of Robustness in an Electronics Design
http://www.informatics.sussex.ac.uk/users/adrianth/ices2000/paper.html
Even within robust digital design, unconstrained evolution can produce circuits beyond the scope of conventional design rules.

And here's a blog post for the rest of us:
http://www.jacksofscience.com/physics/steamy-evolution-and-computing-scandal-now-with-cylons/
 
Upvote 0

exquirer

Junior Member
Oct 16, 2007
159
3
✟22,809.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Make a cell - then teach me.

I am listed as sole inventor on a patent on a self-verifying computer language compiler that was used to automatically design nuclear reactors and perform the safety analysis "dude" - my bet on the graph on the peppered moths, it was done hastily or not in the wild or during the time of day when it actually mattered!!!!!

But hey - its your religion, not mine.

'the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness does not comprehend it' - and 'life is the light of men' - and 'if your light is darkness great is that darkness!'

If you believe death forms life - there is no depth to where the darkness will not take you.

Religion is the science of sciences. James Clerc Maxwell, entropy, entropy, entropy.

ex....
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Many of those studies were actually proved later to be false. Consider the moths - they don't alight on tree trunks (except when released a particular way at a particular time of day).

That is an irrelevancy. Where the moths alight does not affect their relative visibility to predators. And in any case, they do alight on tree trunks about 25% of the time. Have you looked at only Kettlewell's work or have you looked at Majerus' work as well?

It was later found the genes adapted in accordance with the pollution on their own - the adaptation took place but for chemical reasons.

Any change in a gene is, by definition, a chemical change. But the change in the gene does not explain why the melanin form became more common.


Population dynamics is not causal.

Yes it is. Without population dynamics you don't have evolution. You only get increased variability in the population. Individuals do not evolve. Evolution is a population-level event, so you have to have a change at the level of the population. And you have to have something that triggers a change at that level.


If I do a study and note gross changes in population, that does not go to cause in the genome for adaptations moving toward "improvements".

Evolution is not about "improving the breed". Adaptations do not move toward improvements; they move toward ecological fitness as determined by transient ecological parameters.

You will not notice "gross changes" in a population without selection for those changes. Differential reproductive success is the means of getting those "gross changes" in a population.

You can have all the changes you want in an individual; it won't change the population without differential reproductive success aka natural selection.


More likely a machine will just stop running - it takes a heck of allot of smarts to make something that adapts towards improvements all the time... and they have to be improvements in order to survive, but to survive means they overcome.

Non-living machines certainly will. I've often noticed that engineers have the most problems understanding evolution; occupational hazard I expect. But keep studying genetic algorithms--the application of evolution to solving tough engineering problems. It may make understanding the process in biology easier.

The laws of statistics include Heisenberg uncertainty and in general, entropy. Informational entropy is very real.

Of course it is. But biology has a few things going for it that telephones and computers don't. Lots of redundancy, for example, and lots of flexibility. A gene is not as fragile as a verbal sentence being transmitted through the ether. For one thing, the message received by the embryo does not have to be exactly the message that was sent by the parent to still be functional. In fact, if you did not sometimes get "garbled information" (thanks to mutations) you would have no means of establishing the variations in a population that allow for evolution to occur. At some point the gene that prevents melanism in a light coloured moth has to be altered to generate melanism. No melanism, no possibility of adapting to soot-covered trees.


That is not true. You have no idea how something is going to adapt a priori unless you construct a one dimensional flawed study to prove your point (like the moths). Then years later, when people critically analyze the data, and find that chemical changes were closer to cause....

Most experiments deal with one selective factor. So that is a simplification on nature. However, that is typical of scientific work. But it takes a lot of gall to say that every one of several hundreds of experiments were flawed. Is the moth experiment the only one you know of --and only Kettlewell's work at that?


Actually, when pressed Chuck said it was the strong survive and the weak die, though that was years later when pressed about it.

Citation? Have you checked whether this was a mined quote?

And irrelevant in any case. If he said it, he was wrong. "Fitness" is not synonymous to "strength".


Many people took it that way, with horrible effects because science has become a sort of religion of nations since Christendom fell.

The fact that people misunderstand and misapply a scientific theory does not make the theory wrong. Just as the misapplications of Christianity (which led to pogroms and witch-burnings, crusades and the Inquistion) does not make Christianity wrong.


ie. it changed when convenient.

Well, it didn't actually change. It was just spelled out genetically instead of phenotypically when genetics and natural selection were brought together in the modern synthesis. By phrasing it in terms of the distribution of alleles, one goes to the underlying source of phenotypic difference. One also avoids confusing the what (change in the genetic features of a population=evolution) with the why (ecological adaptation, sexual selection, genetic drift). By measuring a change in allele frequency, we know evolution happens whether or not we know the precise genetic change and/or the precise fitness factor that brought it about. Further research can reveal these. Nowadays DNA sequencing makes it fairly straightforward to find the relevant mutation. Figuring out why it was selected is often more tricky and gives rise to "just so" stories until the hypotheses are tested.



No to say death forms life when it is actually life that overcomes (yes - adapts) over death is a fundamental error and not part of the overwhelming reality or evidence.

And isn't that what evolution is about? Life overcoming extinction-threatening events?

You can't use statistics to make a real machine that is useful, unless you make a machine within the statistics that adapts to statistical change.

Natural selection is measured by statistics, but it would be a mistake to say those measures change without an underlying cause. You need to have pre-existent variability to begin with. And you need a factor that non-randomly favors the production/survival of offspring hosting certain alleles. Evolution is not a one-step process. It is also not a one-level process. People often get confused because they attribute different aspects to the wrong level.

One simple way to remember the appropriate level is this:
genes mutate, individuals are selected, populations evolve.


Consider for example genetic algorithms. Not meant for evolutionary study, but you have to tune those things and put allot of smarts in to get a simple optimized answer.

Curious that you would say something that came from evolutionary study is not meant for evolutionary study. Actually the processes of genetic algorithms contributes plenty to evolutionary study.

The chief difference between genetic algorithms and biological evolution is that genetic algorithms are used to generate functions defined in advance by human engineers. In this respect genetic algorithms are a bit more like breeding programs where a human intelligence sets the parameters of the final product.

No human agent sets the parameters for an evolutionary change in natural biological populations.

Those are fundamental laws that govern reality, where entropy is very real.

Of course, and biological evolution complies with those laws.

Physics, information flow, statistics, logic, mechanics, fluid dynamics, capacitance, inductance, resistance, chemical balance, energy, heat transfer.... all these things are tricky to balance in a machine.

They are tricky to balance in a cell too. It is much easier to change an already complex organism (shift the bones around to make an ear from a jaw) than to make a cell in the first place. But that takes us into abiogenesis.

Saw an article recently in Scientific American on the first successful production of a perpetually self-replicating RNA molecule. Have you looked much into the RNA world hypothesis?


and that is why ID has gained traction


What makes you think ID has gained traction? Scientifically, at the moment, it is dead in the water.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
- my bet on the graph on the peppered moths, it was done hastily or not in the wild or during the time of day when it actually mattered!!!!!

Majerus' work is publicly available in any good university. Check it out and see if your bet is good.
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
my bet on the graph on the peppered moths, it was done hastily or not in the wild or during the time of day when it actually mattered!!!!!

I suppose you can tell me where peppered moths rest.
 
Upvote 0

exquirer

Junior Member
Oct 16, 2007
159
3
✟22,809.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The peppered moths rest with God their Father.

Life is the Light of Men, and when God created the Universe, he said, "let there be light".

Light propagation is described scientifically by the Maxwell-Boltzmann equation.

When Boltzmann found his epicurean rooted philosophy was incorrect (like Lucretius - who was Darwin's forerunner) he committed suicide.

Maxwell was a Christian saint who visited widows and orphans and helped the poor. In addition to illuminating with his brilliant equations all of classical electrodynamics, also exposed the truth that at the root of all ordering of statistical processes is intelligence (informational entropy is very real).

If your light is darkness, Boltzmann, great is that darkness.

If your light is life Maxwell, that light is eternal.

If you cannot learn from the light and from the darkness, there is nothing I can teach you. Go to the finches and ask in kindness, and they will teach you.


ex.....
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
The peppered moths rest with God their Father.

Life is the Light of Men, and when God created the Universe, he said, "let there be light".

Light propagation is described scientifically by the Maxwell-Boltzmann equation.

When Boltzmann found his epicurean rooted philosophy was incorrect (like Lucretius - who was Darwin's forerunner) he committed suicide.

Maxwell was a Christian saint who visited widows and orphans and helped the poor. In addition to illuminating with his brilliant equations all of classical electrodynamics, also exposed the truth that at the root of all ordering of statistical processes is intelligence (informational entropy is very real).

If your light is darkness, Boltzmann, great is that darkness.

If your light is life Maxwell, that light is eternal.

If you cannot learn from the light and from the darkness, there is nothing I can teach you. Go to the finches and ask in kindness, and they will teach you.


ex.....

And light is an electromagnetic phenomenon that in no way conflicts with biological evolution. You have not shown that evolution does not happen in the light.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.