• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Could Genesis be literal?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Havilah

Newbie
Dec 6, 2008
13
0
United States
✟22,623.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
sorry I haven't read this entire thread, but...

am I right in concluding that people here who believe in evolution think that Genesis cannot be literal as well?

So you all disregard Schroeder's view completely? I'm just curious. I know I'm an mechanical engineer so I trust physics a little more than other sciences at this point, but I don't dismiss biology. I don't see a problem between any of the sciences and Genesis at all.

I read Schroeder's first two books and I'm reading his most recent right now (The Hidden Face of God), and I've got two of Polkinghorne's books in my TBR pile too. I read Francis Collin's book and I don't see any big disagreement between biology and Genesis so far. Do I have to dismiss Genesis as poetic and non-literal in order to be in the "theistic evolution" group?

again, I don't see a problem here. I don't see why we can't accept that both scripture and science are "literal".
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
So you all disregard Schroeder's view completely? I'm just curious. I know I'm an mechanical engineer so I trust physics a little more than other sciences at this point, but I don't dismiss biology. I don't see a problem between any of the sciences and Genesis at all.

Although he claims it is a "literal" interpretation, Schroeder's view doesn't strike me as literal. It basically involves understanding a human view of 13.7 billion years as 6 days in God's view of time. I have no problem with that, but I don't think you will convince any YECist that this is equivalent to understanding the timing of Genesis 1 "literally".

Schroeder's view to me seems like a more sophisticated form of the traditional Day-Age thesis.

I read Schroeder's first two books and I'm reading his most recent right now (The Hidden Face of God), and I've got two of Polkinghorne's books in my TBR pile too. I read Francis Collin's book and I don't see any big disagreement between biology and Genesis so far.

I am glad you see no disagreement between Genesis and biology. If you accept the theory of evolution, including the evolution of humanity and our common ancestry with chimpanzees, then you will be considered TE whatever your other beliefs. Within that framework there are a multitude of differing positions. Some, for example, hold that Adam and Eve were a particular literal couple who were the first humans "in the image" of God. At the opposite pole are those who consider Adam and Eve as a mythological representation of all of humanity. Then there is the notion of Adam as a literal person who is "federal head" of humanity. I am sure you will come across others. But however literal or non-literal they are, if they include an evolutionary history of life on earth--for humans as for all other species, that is TE.


Do I have to dismiss Genesis as poetic and non-literal in order to be in the "theistic evolution" group?

The real question here is attitudinal. Why is identifying Genesis as poetry seen as "dismissing" it? We accept a great deal of poetry in scripture; why not here? What is wrong with recounting a story--including a literally true story--in poetic form? Poetry is not the opposite of literal. Nor is it the opposite of respectful or inspired or authoritative.

As noted above, there are a wide range of options for TE on the literal/non-literal spectrum. But it is also important to note that wherever one chooses to place oneself on that spectrum, the TE position is that all scripture is given by inspiration--just as Paul told Timothy--and even when it is not understood literally, it still understood as divine revelation and truth, not "dismissed" in any way.

again, I don't see a problem here. I don't see why we can't accept that both scripture and science are "literal".

Basically, I think "literal" is the wrong word. It can't do the job you are asking it to do. "True" might be a better word. I certainly think both scripture and science are true. But the truths they deal with are different, and their ways of discerning the truth are different. They use different modes of language and are framed in different world-views. That doesn't make one better than another and it doesn't mean the truth in one cancels out the truth in the other.
 
Upvote 0

Havilah

Newbie
Dec 6, 2008
13
0
United States
✟22,623.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Oh, so that explains why people are writing pages and pages on the definition of "literal" !

I guess the better word would be "true", you're right. Except that I still think Genesis is literal. It was literally 6 days (from the perspective outside of the universe). But it was also billions of years from the perspective of Earth... so I guess I think they are both literal, just from different perspectives.

I don't have to think that Genesis is poetic allegory in order to accept science, is all I'm saying. (And yes, some scripture is admittedly poetic and not meant to be literal - but I think in those cases it's much clearer in the text. Like Song of Solomon or the parables of Jesus.)

I'll probably fall into the camp of people who think Adam was a real person, then. Thanks for giving me the reader's digest version of the debates here - I could get lost reading all these threads and I wasn't sure what was being debated!
:)

*edited to add*
I was also thinking about some of Jesus' titles like "The light of the world", "the bread of life", etc -- and speaking purely from the standpoint of quantum physics....those titles are literal, as well as figurative. It has both meanings within it, and they both make sense depending on the perspective you take. (I'm on of those people that think scriptures have levels of meaning, or more than one truth inside it. I don't know if there is a name for that. haha)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

exquirer

Junior Member
Oct 16, 2007
159
3
✟22,809.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Firstly: removing CO2, producing O2, producing sugars, and sequestering carbon are all integral to the one job of converting solar energy into chemical energy. You can't have one without the other, for purely chemical reasons that really have nothing to do with biology.
That simply is not the truth. I am a design engineer with 25+ years experience, patents etc..... what you have written above is simply not the truth. There are infinite number of processes with Carbon to burn excess energy - why evolve a system to sequester a large overabundance?

Photosynthesis takes excess solar energy from the sun, sequesters vast amounts of energy in chemical form and creates the oxidizer to boot. The planet was obviously terraformed by self adapting, regulated, programmable, simple, compound, intelligent machines - cells.

Secondly, why would storing excess not be a beneficial process?
By your logic:

- we shouldn't save money, we should constantly be spending as much money as we receive from moment to moment.
Actually we should invest our wealth in the Kingdom of God, in our neighbor, and we should not hoard it in wall street where dust and rust corrupts and wall street thieves break in to steal.....

But in fact from a machines "selfish" point of view, there are no U-Hauls behind hearses - yet the barns are filled with excess energy.

The planet was obviously terraformed.
- we sho
Storage in itself grants security, which to me is a pretty good benefit. (Just tell those whose financial storage was ravaged in the recent crash that they haven't really lost anything!) Of course, storing things runs the risk of someone stealing your stored things but that's life (hehe), you just put up mechanisms that protect your stores, and the thieves find ways to get around those mechanisms, and so on ...

To take your analogy to its logical limit: if you designed a car that only used as much solar energy as it could get at any one moment and didn't store energy, you would have an expensive hunk of metal that could not move at all for at least half the day.
No - you would design it to run for the day - only enough store for the day. Otherwise its "over-engineering."

The planet's atmosphere was transformed - a planting of good seed (DNA/RNA) transformed the Earth from a CO2, soda ocean dead rock into a living planet wherein man "let us create man in our image" arose from God; Intelligent, Simple, Compound according to the ancient Church Fathers; God raised Adam from the dust of the ground.

Without an especial (Supra - especial) abundance of energy, of logic, entropy- which is very real - could not be overcome.
Another thing to remember is that plants frequently offer chemical energy so that animals will do things for them that they can't do themselves. The evolutionary reason that fruit is delicious and nutritious, for example, is because it causes animals to willingly spread plant seeds far beyond what any individual plant could achieve on its own.
There is always an exception that proves the rule.
But the third thing to note is that you have not shown that photosynthesis could not possibly have evolved. Yes, photosynthesis is good. It's a fantastic chemical reaction. And from the theistic point of view, God certainly gave this planet a fantastic terraforming system. (Although you have to wonder: if Genesis 1 was literally true, why would God need to use plants to terraform the planet? Oops.)
Of course Genesis is literally true - and we are told by St. Peter in his second Epistle:

1. Not to interpret scriptures privately but with Holy men.
2. To remember a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day.

A symbol in ancient Eastern thought is of that which it symbolizes. Therefore, something can be literally true in symbol, and of that which it symbolizes, and it forms a very strong reaction of heart, mind and soul which synthesizes the information - and understanding is not incongruent with that.

Don't pull away from a literal view just because you know it took billions of years, and God put in place a wonderful adaptive "evolutionary" engine for it to adapt, and that God is infused in the Universe (and low it was Very Good - and God alone is good).

Religion is the science of sciences. True science and true religion are not contradictory in any way.

Genesis like all Old Testament literature is poetry - literally true, figuratively posed - just like symbols in the Einstein equation ... poetry, beauty, art, and freedom of will....
But evolution is not a statement of (dys)teleology. Yes, photosynthesis is wonderful and works well - that doesn't show that it didn't evolve.
If by evolve you mean adapted, and from an intrinsic, compound, simple, intelligent source (God) - sure. But evolution does not work unless there is an overabundance of intelligence, pattern, logic, Word (DNA/RNA) just as photosynthesis is driven by a overabundance of sunlight - fusion energy.

The point I was making is that both are forms of Entropy (See Maxwell's paper on informational entropy - I forgot the title, look under "Maxwell's demon").

Any mechanism we pose to "explain" an evolutionary scheme is limited by entropy, statistics and mechanics that are fundamentally limited in a pure "objective" or "materialistic" vantage point. It fundamentally breaks down.
Something that is wonderful and works well could have been produced by God by natural means instead of supernatural.
Supernatural - the super comes from Supra - especial!

Supernatural is especially natural - but it includes that transcendent quality of nature, of very nature, of very God infused in nature that is transcendent and every beautiful - Love.
And again, just because something benefits other organisms doesn't mean it couldn't have evolved. Are plants better off with photosynthesis than without? Certainly. The fact that animals are also better off doesn't change that one bit.

Huh?
Sorry for pulling your chain so much. I guess I have this strange point of view that sees Scripture as literally true in a figurative way - and people tend towards the "spiritual" or "material" and I nauseate both.

ex.....
 
Upvote 0

exquirer

Junior Member
Oct 16, 2007
159
3
✟22,809.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Although he claims it is a "literal" interpretation, Schroeder's view doesn't strike me as literal. It basically involves understanding a human view of 13.7 billion years as 6 days in God's view of time. I have no problem with that, but I don't think you will convince any YECist that this is equivalent to understanding the timing of Genesis 1 "literally".

Schroeder's view to me seems like a more sophisticated form of the traditional Day-Age thesis.
What about St. Peter and David?

'David said a thousand years in thy sight are like a watch in the night', and St. Peter was emphatic that in the later times (now) we must not be ignorant that a day unto the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day.

I think Riemann and Einstein pretty much proved that point.

But just as one poses the Einstein tensor field equation with beautiful symbols, and solves it elegantly with beautiful symbols, so too truths of religion are posed poetically, and thought through, prayed through poetically. Sing the Psalms and pray twice, reading them with the Gospels, and realize how beautiful the poetry is - and how true -literally true.

Perhaps literal is a bad word, but if I type literal or literal or literal - the meaning of literal is still literally conveyed - in English at least.

ex....



I am glad you see no disagreement between Genesis and biology. If you accept the theory of evolution, including the evolution of humanity and our common ancestry with chimpanzees, then you will be considered TE whatever your other beliefs. Within that framework there are a multitude of differing positions. Some, for example, hold that Adam and Eve were a particular literal couple who were the first humans "in the image" of God. At the opposite pole are those who consider Adam and Eve as a mythological representation of all of humanity. Then there is the notion of Adam as a literal person who is "federal head" of humanity. I am sure you will come across others. But however literal or non-literal they are, if they include an evolutionary history of life on earth--for humans as for all other species, that is TE.




The real question here is attitudinal. Why is identifying Genesis as poetry seen as "dismissing" it? We accept a great deal of poetry in scripture; why not here? What is wrong with recounting a story--including a literally true story--in poetic form? Poetry is not the opposite of literal. Nor is it the opposite of respectful or inspired or authoritative.

As noted above, there are a wide range of options for TE on the literal/non-literal spectrum. But it is also important to note that wherever one chooses to place oneself on that spectrum, the TE position is that all scripture is given by inspiration--just as Paul told Timothy--and even when it is not understood literally, it still understood as divine revelation and truth, not "dismissed" in any way.



Basically, I think "literal" is the wrong word. It can't do the job you are asking it to do. "True" might be a better word. I certainly think both scripture and science are true. But the truths they deal with are different, and their ways of discerning the truth are different. They use different modes of language and are framed in different world-views. That doesn't make one better than another and it doesn't mean the truth in one cancels out the truth in the other.[/quote]
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
What about St. Peter and David?

'David said a thousand years in thy sight are like a watch in the night', and St. Peter was emphatic that in the later times (now) we must not be ignorant that a day unto the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day.

Obviously they are telling their readers not to assume that "day" literally means "day". It can be a poetic way of referring to an indefinite length of time. God's "days" are not our days.


So why is there this fascination with scripture being literal? What is the importance attached to the quality of being "literal"?

Are you sure it is literalness you are valuing? Or is it genuineness, reality, truth or some such quality? If so, why call this quality "literal"?


Perhaps literal is a bad word, but if I type literal or literal or literal - the meaning of literal is still literally conveyed - in English at least.

ex....

Have you checked out the meaning of "literal"? Like most words it has several meanings. In translation, for example, it refers to the actual word-by-word literal translation---which may not convey what is intended in the target language. A French man may call his sweetheart "mon petit chou" and she will take it as an endearment, but the literal translation ("my little cabbage") is unlikely to win him the same reaction in English.

Or what does "literal" mean in this scenario (overheard on the bus one morning). A girl is telling her friend about her father's reaction when she came in late Saturday night. "Was he angry? I guess! He literally exploded!"

A not uncommon usage of "literal" yet almost 100% removed from the basic meaning. If there is one thing he did not literally do, it was fly to pieces like a piece of dynamite. Here, ironically, "literally" is used to refer to a symbolic analogy.

So what does "literal" mean in reference to scripture? Is the snake in the garden of Eden a literal snake? The Genesis text gives us no reason (other than its power of human speech) to think it is not. But in Revelation we are told it is a symbol of Satan.

So some then say "Well it is literally Satan." What on earth does that mean? Does it mean it is really Satan and not a snake? In that case "literally" is the wrong term. It is literally a snake and symbolically Satan. And the relevant meaning is the symbolic meaning.

Does this amount to "dismissing" the truth of the text or is it actually honouring the truth of the text?

Why is non-literal interpretation, which is so often needed in scripture, looked at with suspicion? What value attaches to the quality "literal" that so much effort is put into verifying that the text really has a "literal" meaning?

It is important to remember that all texts have a literal meaning--including poetry, fiction, fables and fairy tales. The question is whether the literal meaning is also an empirical (real) meaning or whether, as you say, it is a poetic frame for a real meaning.

I don't see the point of recognizing that the important truth of a passage is expressed poetically or symbolically and still insisting that it is "literally true" unless:

1) I understand what the speaker means by "literal" in this case and
2) I understand why it is important to the speaker that it be "literal".

I think in most cases, people cling to the word "literal" because they associate it with being "true". But then "literally true" is a tautology. It is enough to say it is true.

Yet there are also many who associate "literal" with "plain sense" (or "common sense" or "basic meaning"). This is closest to the usual meaning of "literal" when one is not talking about scripture.

The problems arise when one tries to insist on both these meanings at once. For the plain, common, basic meaning of "day" is "one transit of the sun across the sky" (or in modern parlance, one rotation of the earth on its axis). But if the truth is more in line with David and Peter's caution on the meaning of "day" then the common sense meaning is not the true meaning---and both cannot be "literal".
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Obviously they are telling their readers not to assume that "day" literally means "day". It can be a poetic way of referring to an indefinite length of time. God's "days" are not our days.
God created the evening and morning as "one day" for this earth -Genesis. There must be an evening and a morning to count one day, in the creation week. So your reasoning is false, based upon no foundation but your own imaginings.
He defines cycles of years and cycles of days in other places of Scripture for other purposes, but in Genesis creation week he defines "one day" as an evening [night] and a morning [day -light].

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were echad/one day.
Jhn 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

Jon 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Mar 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

exquirer

Junior Member
Oct 16, 2007
159
3
✟22,809.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Obviously they are telling their readers not to assume that "day" literally means "day". It can be a poetic way of referring to an indefinite length of time. God's "days" are not our days.
Yes they are our days - God became man - God became one of us - Fully Human, Fully Divine. Both are correct - both points of view are true with unconfused union.
So why is there this fascination with scripture being literal? What is the importance attached to the quality of being "literal"?
As above, it is very important in terms of symbol, salvation, liturgy and prayer.

God became man so that man could be restored to the Divine nature. God made man on the 6th day when he declared all He made was Very Good - God alone is good.

"God became man so man could become like God" - St. Gregory the Theologian. There is no confusion of time - symbol is of that which it symbolizes.

So we experience God in our nature when we make a home for Him - the Holy Mystery.

When as a professor, one writes an equation on the board, that equation becomes part of the understanding of the students - the students obey or disobey the equations in their interactions with nature or machinery described by the equations. The equations are symbols, but they become part of a kinematic human/environment/machine experience that is total - symbolic - REAL and LITERALLY true.

This is ancient Theology which had no problem with evolution or anything else scientific - God experiences as man as we experience.

And God could not be omipotent if he didn't know what it was like not to know something, so God is eternally the Word - the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, so that God the Son, the Word, experiences learning, experiences not knowing, experiences faith, hope and love - and fully becomes man so He can save us by leading by example. So God knows all things - even what it is not to know - and to have faith etc....
Are you sure it is literalness you are valuing? Or is it genuineness, reality, truth or some such quality? If so, why call this quality "literal"?
The divorce of thought that says a symbol is a "mere" representation in an abstract way is a sort of heresy - arguably - in that Jesus becomes an abstraction and His Godhood an abstract quality, and our participation in His redemption and the Holy Mysteries becomes an abstraction.

And each abstraction reduces further and further until faith sort of evaporates away.....

But the term "literal" is a semantic - it is important that we recognize the reality and literal truth of those things that have a poetic meaning.

Maybe the term "real" would be better????
Have you checked out the meaning of "literal"? Like most words it has several meanings. In translation, for example, it refers to the actual word-by-word literal translation---which may not convey what is intended in the target language. A French man may call his sweetheart "mon petit chou" and she will take it as an endearment, but the literal translation ("my little cabbage") is unlikely to win him the same reaction in English.
Both are true - my little cabbage is a term of endearment in the symbolic sense - the literal understanding is important in conveying the fullness of the love one has for another in the cultural context. I think literalism is important - as long as one also knows it is a term of endearment - the fullness of knowledge only makes the literal an essential component to go to the root meaning.
Or what does "literal" mean in this scenario (overheard on the bus one morning). A girl is telling her friend about her father's reaction when she came in late Saturday night. "Was he angry? I guess! He literally exploded!"
;)

A not uncommon usage of "literal" yet almost 100% removed from the basic meaning. If there is one thing he did not literally do, it was fly to pieces like a piece of dynamite. Here, ironically, "literally" is used to refer to a symbolic analogy.
Truth has precision - to a limit.

Consider Pi - does it exist in the universe to the last digit? There is a limit - turns out the universe is non-euclidean and while Pi crops up all over the place, in a quantized sense, one never experiences Pi to its totality because somewhere in real space-time - Heisenberg kicks in (which limit itself is related to Pi :))

So literal has fundamental limitations. Whether font, typing, language, or physics, there is a limit to which all literal truths are "literal" in a precise sense.

Yet something can be literally true, and it is important to realize it as a literal truth from an experiential aspect.

Jesus is God. Jesus is Word become man - fully human, fully divine. The Word created the Universe. The Word as man experiences creation in seven literal, liturgical days - Jesus prayed and sang the Psalms, including Psalm 90 - we know that from Scripture. Therefore, Jesus experienced the creation as a liturgical week, entering prayer, time above time, and did so as fully human. So fully human, He knew the silence of God (Psalm 22) and God's silent answer.

One can believe in literal and figurative in unconfused union if one can believe in God omnipotent, fully human, fully divine in unconfused union.
So what does "literal" mean in reference to scripture? Is the snake in the garden of Eden a literal snake?
Yes - and it is also our tongue, and our esophagus according to the ancient Church Fathers. And the fruit of knowing good and evil - the logical result - is judging. Yet the literal and figurative and intellectual and abstract all are real and symbolic and of that which is eternal.
The Genesis text gives us no reason (other than its power of human speech) to think it is not. But in Revelation we are told it is a symbol of Satan.
The snake is also a symbol of Christ - remember, Jesus was lifted up as the Serpent was lifted up - and Moses staff became a serpent. And in Psalm 22, Jesus says "I am a worm and no man" - so that being lifted up as a serpent, he overcomes our nature transforming the serpent into a worm - and no man, despised by the congregation. He does not judge us to oblivion, but rather in utter humility prays that we be forgiven because we don't know what we are doing.

I certainly don't! Thank God I am ignorant. But I believe in literal truth at the same time symbolic in unconfused union because otherwise, I think my little head would literally explode.....
So some then say "Well it is literally Satan." What on earth does that mean? Does it mean it is really Satan and not a snake? In that case "literally" is the wrong term. It is literally a snake and symbolically Satan. And the relevant meaning is the symbolic meaning.
Literally and symbolically because symbol is literal -

Symbol A is of thing B in ancient Eastern thought - and it is so even today in how we actually do things. The separation of thought, that a symbol is merely a representation, is a reduction of the term to isolate it - yet in its total integral application, once conveyed the symbol is of that which it symbolizes in an integral sense.

In Eastern thought, integral is important. In western, we tend to differentiate. Differential understanding taken in the extreme can be detrimental to understanding truths conveyed from an Eastern culture - poetically, liturgically.

Does this amount to "dismissing" the truth of the text or is it actually honouring the truth of the text?

Why is non-literal interpretation, which is so often needed in scripture, looked at with suspicion? What value attaches to the quality "literal" that so much effort is put into verifying that the text really has a "literal" meaning?
I agree - but a non-literal interpretation outside the thought processes of the Eastern thinkers is not a fully honest interpretation. I love Brussel sprouts by the way...
It is important to remember that all texts have a literal meaning--including poetry, fiction, fables and fairy tales. The question is whether the literal meaning is also an empirical (real) meaning or whether, as you say, it is a poetic frame for a real meaning.
A symbol becomes that which it symbolizes when we obey or disobey it - it becomes part of our reality just as these symbols on the page evoke in you some sort of response. From a total perspective, integral, it has an impact on some level- these symbols will effect your life.

I hope and pray for the better. Anyway, that is how this sinner thinks of that stuff so his brain doesn't explode.
I don't see the point of recognizing that the important truth of a passage is expressed poetically or symbolically and still insisting that it is "literally true" unless:

1) I understand what the speaker means by "literal" in this case and
2) I understand why it is important to the speaker that it be "literal".
I think the literal truth is important because we have in the Church, in some way shape or form, a liturgy, a prayer of the people that we enter. When we go into Church, we love God and our neighbor - we pray, we enter a mystical union with those around us.

The Gospel symbols, the Church symbols, become part of our thinking, and how we act ....
I think in most cases, people cling to the word "literal" because they associate it with being "true". But then "literally true" is a tautology. It is enough to say it is true.
St. Ephraim the Syrian I believe and St. Basil the Great both taught it was very important that we see Genesis as literally true - and I think that goes to ancient Iconography that shows Jesus the word creating the Universe.

God the Word became man to redeem the entire universe - by man the universe fell, by God become man, it is redeemed.

God as man experiences the eons of old as seven liturgical, literal days and invites us into the Holy Mystery to so experience - literally, those truths as human - as fully man, filled with and containing the uncontainable God.

Its a mystery - but its fun and I think beautiful to consider at least this point of view, of literal symbolic truth.
Yet there are also many who associate "literal" with "plain sense" (or "common sense" or "basic meaning"). This is closest to the usual meaning of "literal" when one is not talking about scripture.

The problems arise when one tries to insist on both these meanings at once. For the plain, common, basic meaning of "day" is "one transit of the sun across the sky" (or in modern parlance, one rotation of the earth on its axis). But if the truth is more in line with David and Peter's caution on the meaning of "day" then the common sense meaning is not the true meaning---and both cannot be "literal".
And in Psalm 19 (KJV), the transit of the Sun refers to the Sun in the sky - but our Sun is the Son of God, and so it refers to His ministry as foretold by David in prayer - mystically, entering a time above time.

He came as the light in the darkness, and healed ....

ex....
 
Upvote 0

exquirer

Junior Member
Oct 16, 2007
159
3
✟22,809.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
God created the evening and morning as "one day" for this earth -Genesis. There must be an evening and a morning to count one day, in the creation week. So your reasoning is false, based upon no foundation but your own imaginings.
He defines cycles of years and cycles of days in other places of Scripture for other purposes, but in Genesis creation week he defines "one day" as an evening [night] and a morning [day -light].

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were echad/one day.
Jhn 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

Jon 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Mar 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

2Pe:1:19: We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pe:1:20: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe:1:21: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2Pe:3:3: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe:3:4: And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe:3:5: For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe:3:6: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe:3:7: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe:3:8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Psalms:90:1: LORD, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
Psalms:90:2: Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psalms:90:3: Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
Psalms:90:4: For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
Psalms:90:5: Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.
Psalms:90:6: In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.
Psalms:90:7: For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled.
Psalms:90:8: Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance.
Psalms:90:9: For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told.
Psalms:90:10: The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.
Psalms:90:11: Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath.
Psalms:90:12: So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.
Psalms:90:13: Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants.
Psalms:90:14: O satisfy us early with thy mercy; that we may rejoice and be glad all our days.
Psalms:90:15: Make us glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us, and the years wherein we have seen evil.
Psalms:90:16: Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children.
Psalms:90:17: And let the beauty of the LORD our God be upon us: and establish thou the work of our hands upon us; yea, the work of our hands establish thou it.
Holy Scripture is clear, pure, clean and literally true. Our personal interpretations are unclear, because we do not see clearly but grope about in darkness as St. Isaiah and St. Paul make clear.... we are blind, God sees all things.

ex....
 
Upvote 0

exquirer

Junior Member
Oct 16, 2007
159
3
✟22,809.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
God created the evening and morning as "one day" for this earth -Genesis. There must be an evening and a morning to count one day, in the creation week. So your reasoning is false, based upon no foundation but your own imaginings.
He defines cycles of years and cycles of days in other places of Scripture for other purposes, but in Genesis creation week he defines "one day" as an evening [night] and a morning [day -light].

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were echad/one day.
Jhn 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

Jon 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Mar 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
Jesus suffered death on Friday - the 6th day - the day in which man fell.

Remember, Eve prophesied on that day we would surely die, and Adam lived man centuries, but died before a thousand years.

Jesus harrowed hell on the 7th day, the day of rest, when he went to retrieve the sheep who fell in the well and did so on the Sabbath day (the 7th day) as he foretold to the pharisees - for Adam and all mankind is the sheep and the well is death.


He drove the Pharisees nuts because he healed and did work on the 7th day - as fully man - because the Divine nature was asleep - resting. God was asleep - man was active.

When Jesus died and was in the tomb, death swallowed man, and encountered God face to face - as man - the human nature was reborn in the new Adam.

And Jesus resurrected on the 8th day - the day of the new heaven and new Earth which he foretold a new creation - 8 being in the form of a mobius because it is infinite - it is back to 1 the first day again.

These are truths too - deep and beautiful and poetic and literal and real and ancient.

ex...
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Yes they are our days - God became man - God became one of us - Fully Human, Fully Divine. Both are correct - both points of view are true with unconfused union.

As above, it is very important in terms of symbol, salvation, liturgy and prayer.

God became man so that man could be restored to the Divine nature. God made man on the 6th day when he declared all He made was Very Good - God alone is good.

"God became man so man could become like God" - St. Gregory the Theologian. There is no confusion of time - symbol is of that which it symbolizes.

So we experience God in our nature when we make a home for Him - the Holy Mystery.

I am not going to quote your whole post since I am going to respond to it wholistically rather than point by point.

I think the fact you are coming from an eastern perspective makes a lot of difference in your understanding of "literal". The way you unify the literal and the symbolic an a single theological gestalt makes for something very different from the typical Protestant fundamentalist meaning of "literal" which usually means "empirically verifiable in scientific terms".

I must say I prefer your "literal" to theirs.
Though personally, I would still more likely say "real" than "literal".

Have you ever read Northrope Frye? He was a Canadian professor of English literature (though he was also an ordained minister of the United Church) and his main interest was in the field of literary criticism. Much of what you are saying is very like his approach to the literature of the Bible--though he would call the literal-symbol unity you speak of a "metaphor".

What he notes, however, is that for the people of biblical times "metaphor" was not a mere figure of speech. It was exactly that sort of symbol of what is symbolized that you speak of. And this is a reality, not a matter of human imaginative fancy.

He would deplore, as you do, the notion that a metaphorical symbol is a mere representative abstraction that becomes less and less real as it becomes more and more abstract.

The metaphor, as he presents it, is a living unity of literal and symbol in which we are intended to participate.
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
With all due respect, regarding photosynthesis, it seems more like you've made up your mind what the conclusion is, and then decided that all the evidence must point to that conclusion. The telltale sign of that is asserting that something is (or is not) the truth without a shred of supportive evidence or the faintest attempt to a reasoned argument for it.

That simply is not the truth. I am a design engineer with 25+ years experience, patents etc..... what you have written above is simply not the truth. There are infinite number of processes with Carbon to burn excess energy - why evolve a system to sequester a large overabundance?

This isn't really about engineering ... it's about first year chemistry. ;)

A plant needs to build carbon compounds.
Its main source of carbon is carbon dioxide in the atmosphere;
However, CO2 is the most oxidized carbon compound available, and so the plant will need to reduce it to build its carbon compounds.
Reducing CO2 must by definition release O2.
Furthermore, this process will require energy input. (This constraint is entirely chemical.)
By simple thermodynamic reversibility (Hess's Law), this means that the resulting compounds will release chemical energy when combined again with O2.

Thus sequestering carbon (building carbon compounds from CO2), reducing CO2, releasing O2, and storing solar energy are all inter-related processes.

It just struck me that most carbohydrate production isn't even used by the plant as energy storage. A large part of it goes into producing cellulose and lignin as structural components of a plant. In fact, those compounds aren't even particularly suited for chemical energy storage (try eating a tree and your digestive system will show you what I mean).

Most of the times when a plant does explicitly store energy, the need is fairly obvious. Take winter roots. If a plant were to expend chemical energy at the rate it was harvested throughout spring / summer, and not lay down reserves, then it would simply die during autumn and winter (no matter how magnificently it had grown).

Or take seeds and fruit. Why does a seed need energy storage? Because it can't start converting solar energy into chemical energy right from the get-go. It needs some "startup capital" to grow its first leaves. Hence most seeds have a good portion of carbohydrate (and make for nutritious sources of energy - think beans).

It's fairly straightforward from a plant's point of view. No need for all this terraforming business.
 
Upvote 0

exquirer

Junior Member
Oct 16, 2007
159
3
✟22,809.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I am not going to quote your whole post since I am going to respond to it wholistically rather than point by point.

I think the fact you are coming from an eastern perspective makes a lot of difference in your understanding of "literal". The way you unify the literal and the symbolic an a single theological gestalt makes for something very different from the typical Protestant fundamentalist meaning of "literal" which usually means "empirically verifiable in scientific terms".

I must say I prefer your "literal" to theirs.
Though personally, I would still more likely say "real" than "literal".

Have you ever read Northrope Frye? He was a Canadian professor of English literature (though he was also an ordained minister of the United Church) and his main interest was in the field of literary criticism. Much of what you are saying is very like his approach to the literature of the Bible--though he would call the literal-symbol unity you speak of a "metaphor".

What he notes, however, is that for the people of biblical times "metaphor" was not a mere figure of speech. It was exactly that sort of symbol of what is symbolized that you speak of. And this is a reality, not a matter of human imaginative fancy.

He would deplore, as you do, the notion that a metaphorical symbol is a mere representative abstraction that becomes less and less real as it becomes more and more abstract.

The metaphor, as he presents it, is a living unity of literal and symbol in which we are intended to participate.
Thanks so much - it seems you understand at least the perspective I was trying to convey - albeit poorly - which is the base abstraction.

This Icon image shows Christ the Word creating the Universe - for all things that are - were created through the Word:

images


Word of God manifest experiences this very creation as man - as we do - in a very real 24 hour day - at least, that is what I believe St. Basil was getting to in the "literal" 24 hour day viewpoint - which is the preferred reference frame (co-moving coordinates - Einstein sort of thinking here - our notions of Euclidean Geometry and causality are certainly very limited).

That does not mean God as man is "ignorant" (as St. Peter who was taught by Christ himself puts it) of the fact that the experiential symbol day is as a thousand years - or eons.....?

But - as God man - and God said "let us create man in our image" - God creates and it is so really in God's time which is above time - and becomes our time because God became man. e.g. Eons become days - and days are fulfilled symbolically that are part of a simple, compound time above time.

The bottom line is, in the time that matters, to the Alpha and Omega who is Jesus Christ as we humans can experience God through Him and only Him (the Way the Truth and the Life) - literal 7 day creation is the preferred reference frame and true reference frame for creation.

Interesting to note that many modern cosmologists believe the universe expanded faster than the speed of light in the beginning - which means that it arrived before it left so to speak.... which gets into foreknowledge.

Also consider, Christ the Word being upset with the disciples for not keeping watch with him in the night - they fell asleep - perhaps symbolically (and really) they had to 'for a thousand years in thy site are as a watch in the night.....' Jesus Christ is Lord - so when St. David says a day unto the Lord and St. Peter says a day unto the Lord, Jesus Christ is Lord - so a day it is - really.

As St. John quotes the Father - the voice from Heaven, "In the beginning was the Word....".

Anyway, I think this is sort of cool stuff, but with prayer, we are supposed to enter that place where the morning star arises in our hearts, and we enter that time above time....

ex...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

exquirer

Junior Member
Oct 16, 2007
159
3
✟22,809.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
With all due respect, regarding photosynthesis, it seems more like you've made up your mind what the conclusion is, and then decided that all the evidence must point to that conclusion. The telltale sign of that is asserting that something is (or is not) the truth without a shred of supportive evidence or the faintest attempt to a reasoned argument for it.



This isn't really about engineering ... it's about first year chemistry. ;)

A plant needs to build carbon compounds.
Why not from fields of carbon - dead leaves? Why not from dead plants?

If you can evolve a venus fly trap.....
Its main source of carbon is carbon dioxide in the atmosphere;
And what is the main source of N2?
N2 - 70% in atmosphere
C - 300 ppm in Atmosphere (0.300 %)

So we supply the plants with N2 fertilizer and other compounds - in the soil!

So efficient with the atmosphere when it comes to Carbon, so inefficient when it comes to Nitrogen..... hmmmmm.

Of course if it got its N2 from the atmosphere - if you lit a match.....
However, CO2 is the most oxidized carbon compound available, and so the plant will need to reduce it to build its carbon compounds.
Reducing CO2 must by definition release O2.
\
Not forever out of balance. Not from the point where the atmosphere got to 20% O2 and there were tons and tons of carbon available in the ground - in fact, one could argue it would be more efficient to grab it from the ground and use O2 at probably closer to 0.3% of the atmosphere with plenty of carbon around in the soil.

The hole ecosystem is in a sort of equilibrium, after the evolution of intelligent plant eaters....

In fact, rather early on, burning O2 and getting carbon from the ground would be far more efficient from a plant's point of view. There is a certain point where getting carbon from the ground would be far more efficient.

It doesn't have to get the Carbon from the atmosphere. Consider Nitrogen.

And once the atmosphere gets to 20% O2....? Simple Malthusian doctrine would say, use decaying moss and whatever, and burn it internally. Plenty of mechanisms for that. At some point, you have to run the numbers.

But instead, what evolves, walks about, eats plants, and defecates compounds recycled...... entropy, entropy, entropy - in wisdom God made all things.

Furthermore, this process will require energy input. (This constraint is entirely chemical.)
By simple thermodynamic reversibility (Hess's Law), this means that the resulting compounds will release chemical energy when combined again with O2.

Thus sequestering carbon (building carbon compounds from CO2), reducing CO2, releasing O2, and storing solar energy are all inter-related processes.

It just struck me that most carbohydrate production isn't even used by the plant as energy storage. A large part of it goes into producing cellulose and lignin as structural components of a plant. In fact, those compounds aren't even particularly suited for chemical energy storage (try eating a tree and your digestive system will show you what I mean).
So again, the plant gets its Carbon from the atmosphere, not the ground where it is abundantly available, but does get its Nitrogen from the ground, where it is abundantly available in the atmosphere!
....
It's fairly straightforward from a plant's point of view. No need for all this terraforming business.
Yes its straightforward.... and so is DNA/RNA and cells and the like. So why not make one in your backyard from scratch materials - a self-replicating straightforward machine? Or something that can see? Or something that is self-replicating and adapting?

Cells are sophisticated, complex, factories with all sorts of engineering marvels packed inside...... informational entropy is real - just as there is an abundance of sunlight to drive the inherently energy inefficient plant CO2 breakup - there must be an abundance of order (Word?) to overcome informational entropy. Both forms of entropy are very real.

ex.....
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
Why not from fields of carbon - dead leaves? Why not from dead plants?

Because the first photosynthetic life-forms didn't actually have fields of carbon available?

And what is the main source of N2?
N2 - 70% in atmosphere
C - 300 ppm in Atmosphere (0.300 %)

So we supply the plants with N2 fertilizer and other compounds - in the soil!

So efficient with the atmosphere when it comes to Carbon, so inefficient when it comes to Nitrogen..... hmmmmm.


In fact, rather early on, burning O2 and getting carbon from the ground would be far more efficient from a plant's point of view. There is a certain point where getting carbon from the ground would be far more efficient.

It doesn't have to get the Carbon from the atmosphere. Consider Nitrogen.

And once the atmosphere gets to 20% O2....? Simple Malthusian doctrine would say, use decaying moss and whatever, and burn it internally. Plenty of mechanisms for that. At some point, you have to run the numbers.

Look, it really all boils down to first year chemistry.

Nitrogen fixation is tough because the dinitrogen molecule has a very stable triple bond that is non-polarized. In contrast, both of the bonds in CO2 are double bonds and are quite highly polarized (although since both bonds point in opposite directions, the molecule as a whole is non-polar).

Furthermore, nitrogen readily forms convenient aqueous ions, namely nitrate ions (with ammonium coming a close second). Carbon dioxide can dissolve in water to form carbonate ions, but at normal pH and CO2 concentrations the amount of carbonate in water is negligible. (That's why your soft drinks fizz: most CO2 wouldn't persist as carbonate in the water, they will outgas forming cute little bubbles.) Now from chemistry, the fastest reactions are reactions that occur in gaseous or aqueous media, and so plants would not be able to assimilate solid carbon at any appreciable rate.

Plants can't get nitrogen from the air because nitrogen fixation is tough;
plants get nitrogen from the soil because nitrates readily dissolve in soil water;
plants can't get carbon from the soil because carbonate concentrations are low under normal conditions and because solid carbon is hard to assimilate;
plants get carbon from the air because carbon dioxide is easy to reduce (with solar input ;) ) and because gas diffusion is a whole lot faster than solid-solid reactions.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Because the first photosynthetic life-forms didn't actually have fields of carbon available?



Look, it really all boils down to first year chemistry.


I am glad someone knows chemistry. I had a feeling that had to be central to the matter, but as I said, I barely passed basic high school chemistry and have never studied it since. But there is nothing really mysterious about why plants do things the way they do when one understands the chemical constraints.
 
Upvote 0

exquirer

Junior Member
Oct 16, 2007
159
3
✟22,809.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Because the first photosynthetic life-forms didn't actually have fields of carbon available?
Ancient? When did they?
Look, it really all boils down to first year chemistry

Nitrogen fixation is tough because the dinitrogen molecule has a very stable triple bond that is non-polarized. In contrast, both of the bonds in CO2 are double bonds and are quite highly polarized (although since both bonds point in opposite directions, the molecule as a whole is non-polar).

Its called Nitrogen Fixation see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_fixation

Splitting apart CO2 isn't that easy when you write out the KCAL.

You drive in a car that burns carbon fuels. Far more carbon available on the ground than in the air.
Furthermore, nitrogen readily forms convenient aqueous ions, namely nitrate ions (with ammonium coming a close second). Carbon dioxide can dissolve in water to form carbonate ions, but at normal pH and CO2 concentrations the amount of carbonate in water is negligible.
Not in ancient oceans which were like soda water.
(That's why your soft drinks fizz: most CO2 wouldn't persist as carbonate in the water, they will outgas forming cute little bubbles.) Now from chemistry, the fastest reactions are reactions that occur in gaseous or aqueous media, and so plants would not be able to assimilate solid carbon at any appreciable rate.
Except in ancient oceans.
Plants can't get nitrogen from the air because nitrogen fixation is tough;
plants get nitrogen from the soil because nitrates readily dissolve in soil water;
Soybeans.

plants can't get carbon from the soil because carbonate concentrations are low under normal conditions
That is not true - e.g.leaves ancient oceans etc...
and because solid carbon is hard to assimilate;
So is respiration for something that is only 300 ppm.
plants get carbon from the air because carbon dioxide is easy to reduce (with solar input ;) ) and because gas diffusion is a whole lot faster than solid-solid reactions.
Its not "easy" - you invent a self-replicating self adapting machine to turn the atmosphere into what it is today, and then tell me how easy it is. When is the last time you saw a man made manufacturing plant take solar energy and turn it into sugar?

Just as with Nitrogen fertilzer, if we were to do it, we'd get the carbon from the ground. Our cars don't run on CO2 in the air for example..... write out the KCAL.

If we did get N2 from the atmosphere - we'd use an electric capacitor and get NO2 in pulses with a spark gap, and that would be easier than getting CO2 from the air and converting it into sugar from a machine point of view. Of course, that would require evolution to create spark gap things and trap the laughing gas..... I don't think that is an "easier" than photosynthesis.

ex......
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

exquirer

Junior Member
Oct 16, 2007
159
3
✟22,809.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I am glad someone knows chemistry. I had a feeling that had to be central to the matter, but as I said, I barely passed basic high school chemistry and have never studied it since. But there is nothing really mysterious about why plants do things the way they do when one understands the chemical constraints.
It's not chemistry, its chemical engineering - and overall engineering.

Doing this stuff is not "easy" - see for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_fixation

And soybeans perform nitrogen fixation for example.

ex.....
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Upvote 0

exquirer

Junior Member
Oct 16, 2007
159
3
✟22,809.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Well, actually, it's the symbiotic bacteria in their root systems that perform the fixation, right?
Right! If it wasn't symbiotic, the plants would do the same as the bacteria, and we'd be in rather sorry shape (as would the plants) - plants would get all the N2 they wanted, and they could do the same thing the Bacteria do.

But - with a symbiotic relationship ("evolution") and a balance, the machinery is balanced. There are many examples of symbiotic organisms, if one does, the chain breaks down. So everything is under control and in balance.

This is not easy. Its not easy making capacitors, valves, motors, inductors, variable resistors, factories, self replicating machines - all that innate "intelligence" and pattern is in cells + DNA/RNA to program them.

Yet if one just used "Malthusian" natural selection thinking, why wouldn't the plants do what the bacteria do (and our cells are thought to contain processes that were once symbiotic).

Nothing is "simple" in the bio-chemical real world, this stuff is not "easy" - it might be easy to write out an equation, try engineering it to make it work and balance etc......

ex....
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.