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Swingers - Swapping Partners

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chingchang

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I don't see why people would take the marriage vows to be faithful unto only each other if they wanted to be "swingers"? Why get married at all then?

"Faithful" to one another may mean all kinds of things. "Faithful" does not equal "sexual exclusivity". I can be faithful to my wife in all kinds of things...only one of those being sexual. Most of us make that vow...which we all agree implies sexual exclusivity...but that is not what it means. "Why get married at all...?" People get married for all kinds of reasons.

I see this swinger lifestyle as partly due to that thing called a "mid life crisis" which is a realization that one really is mortal and going to die or that their youth is over.

That doesn't explain the 20 and 30-something swingers. "Mid-life-crisis" is something that happens after 40.

I just read some posts on a secular msn page regarding infidelity and all the posters said if it's just a bf and you've been hurt by cheating you may want to move on to another person. However, if you are married and have children, you may want to work it out for the children's sake. But most said once a cheating has occurred in marriage, it might be impossible to regain that bond.

Huge difference between "cheating" and "swinging". Cheating involves betrayal.

I'd also say that very few couples find this experience of swapping a happy one. People are jealous creatures, even secular ones.

The jealous ones don't swing...and if they do they don't for long. The divorce rate is higher among non-swinging married couples.

The grass is always greener on the other side... or is it? People are not only basically jealous creatures but they are also selfish creatures and many also want to constantly test God by going outside of certain boundaries.

You do?

But again to say we are monogamous creatures I think would be false, but there is happiness to find within monogamy so that trust is not broken. Once trust is broken and suspicions creep in, such as one of the swappers thinking their loved one might be falling in love with someone else, there relationship is going to be on very shaky ground if not fall apart altogether.

Surely this has happened to swingers...but generally does not.

People shouldn't live their lives only by what the Bible says or doesn't say. We do have common sense too.

Absolutely! But...common sense is relative. It may be "common sense" to you not to swing...but to someone else it swinging may be an awesome thing.

Hugs,
CC
 
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Floatingaxe

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Hey chingy...

Do you swing?

Do you know Jesus Christ as your Saviour?

Because Christians know that such immoral behaviour separates them from the Lord they love and are supposed to obey. It's a no-brainer.

So, why do you argue for such sinful ideas?

 
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HuntingMan

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oh for pities sake.
PLEASE tell me that professing christians ARENT claiming that we are allowed to swap wives.
Im hanging on a thread here with this forum anyway, desiring to just write it off entirely and move on....this will just be one more nail in the coffin.
 
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wkonwtrtom

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yes unhealthy is a sin. our bodies are temples and we are told to take care of them. and don't even try your little straw man on me. going out and breaking your arm is obviously unhealthy. playing soccer is fun and even healthy. accidently tripping, falling on your arm and breaking it is an accident, not an automatic unhealthy side effect of playing soccer. whether or not STDs or blown out of proportion, they still exist and are still unhealthy. low risk doesn't matter here, it is still present and therefore still unhealthy. there really is a huge difference between non-existent and almost non-existent. the laws of the OT were not made for the Israelites to have something to follow, but because they were simply good and healthy things to follow. take for instance the dietary laws: it so happens that pork and other forbidden meats are rather unhealthy meats. yes they have nutritional value, but there are also certain other things in them that are not healthy for us to eat. you can always say that because of what Christ did we don't have to follow the law. this is perfectly true, and it cannot save us. however not having to, is different than we should not. the thing that was wrong with Judaism is that they were saying you had to meet the requirements of the law. this is not true, we don't have to follow them; however we can follow it if we feel the need to. what i'm really saying is don't ridicule people for using those laws as arguments, they are still valid at least as healthy issues go. if God didn't want Israel doing things, it was because they were better off when they didn't. we are not required to follow the law (save for the 10 commandments) but it is still good and was made with good in mind.



So then I take it that you follow all the dietary laws of the OT? Do you also forbid yourself from doing anything that would be "unhealthy" or even dangerous? Do you drive? 50k people a year die in accidents in just the US every year. I would say that is a pretty dangerous or "unhealthy" thing to do. It is unhealthy to go to a hospital. It is unhealthy to shake someone's hand or to be near anyone that sneezes. Do you hold up in a sterile room and avoid people? I doubt it.

If you hold to one OT law and believe that God requires you to do so, you are then subject to them all. You can not pick and choose which ones you want to follow. Even Paul said that. And if you choose to hold to the law as your guide then the grace of salvation is null and void to you. Is that what you choose? Not me.

God has shown us the way to His freedom - grace and salvation. Paul was also clear that some things are sin only to those that belive it is sin but not to those who walk in a greater freedom. Some walk in a greater freedom because they do not believe that Augustine had it right concerning sex. And they believe that the church settled in on his ideas about sex since then rather than what the scripture say or do not say about sex. Unfortunately, too many Christians are complacent and just will not look at the history of where some of these dogmatic doctrines have come from, like the church tradition of restrictions on sex and their toxic effects.

It is easy to continue to argue using the standard church line and fear about what "could" happen and how "unhealthy" or "unsafe" sex is without using the same logic on anything else in file. The church has been anti-sex for so long that no one wants to even open their eyes to the possibility that what they are taught may just be wrong. I challenge anyone that really wants to understand this issue to read Divine Sex and to seriously do the research into sex throughout church history. Unless you are afraid of finding out that what you think is Biblical may only be biblianity.
 
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HuntingMan

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OH brother...not that silly argument again.
We gentiles DO NOT FOLLOW THE WHOLE LAW.
ACts 15 shows us what the gentile church was to follow concerning the law and DIETARY laws WERENT included...not to mention that Christ declared ALL foods CLEAN when He said NOTHING we take into our bodies defiles it.

Gentiles and the Mosaic Law - Acts 15

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that Acts 15 presents that while we arent UNDER the Law of Moses that we gentiles ARE to abstain from four items as prescribed IN the law.

Supporting Evidence

In ACTS 15 when discussing whether the GENTILES should follow the law of Moses it was determined that only FOUR things were to be abstained from as per the law.
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
(Act 15:5 KJV) .....
So we see there that the discussion was that some believing pharisees were pushing the idea that we gentiles were keep the law of Moses.
Below we see that the council has discerned that we gentiles ARENT to be bothered with keeping the whole law, but does feel that four items ARE to be abstained from.

.......Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from
-pollutions of idols,
-and from fornication,
-and from things strangled,
-and from blood.
(Act 15:19-20 KJV)
This is repeated again a few verses later and this time it is cemented that the Holy Spirit is involved in this command...
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
That ye abstain from
-meats offered to idols,
-and from blood,
-and from things strangled,
-and from fornication:
from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
(Act 15:24-29 KJV)
So we see that there ARE things we GENTILES are instructed to ABSTAIN from as defined in the law even tho we arent UNDER law.


Also see:
New Testament "fornication" defined by Mosaic Law -Acts 15
 
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wkonwtrtom

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Hunting,

Acts 15 was Paul telling a specific group, harrassed by the "judiazers", to do a few things to get them off their backs about keeping the whole law. LAter in Romans 14 and 1Cor8 he goes on to say something comepletely different. So either Acts 15 is for a specific instance and not the whole body of believers or God and Paul changed their minds. Many see the Acts 15 as a compromise needed to help believers crack the wall of separation between the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers and make them one body rather than dividing the church over non-issues.
 
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Nadiine

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ANd hunting, as I have posted previously, the word "fornication" has to do with sexual idol worship with temple prostitutes.
The word holds several meanings, not JUST this one wkon.

& in the contexts, it's VERY clear that it means ALL conduct
outside the marital bed.

Let's NOT forget the other many verses that spell out that
MERE LUST for another other than one's spouse is adultery.
Do you think that just maybe taking it to the final stages of
fulfilling that lust thru sex might not be considered adultery too?
:doh:

Then lets not for get the verse:
Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled;
but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

ANY SEXUAL CONTACT outside the marriage is sexual sin -
whether fornication or adultery. And this law was carried out
in Israel very strictly!
Remember how Jesus was accused by the Pharisees of being
illegitimate, becuz Mary wasn't married when she gave birth
to Jesus.

Further proof of the expected virginity of the unmarried


Then we have these:
1 Corinthians 7:2
Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality,
let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.

1 Corinthians 7:9
But if they do not have self-control, let them marry;
for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Again, context of ALL scripture spells out the sexual sins.
If lust, sensuality, lasciviousness are condemned, then
certainly taking the lustful desire to their final fruition
of having sex is sinful - outside the marital bed which
is the only lawful place within the covenant of marriage.

Two become one.

So that's a lovely misinformed statement, but it's not true.

Which is very alarming since your member title reads "Pastor".
:eek:
 
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holo

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OH brother...not that silly argument again.
We gentiles DO NOT FOLLOW THE WHOLE LAW.
Well, that's the contradiction right there...

The only thing Jesus said about the jots and tittles of the law that you so conveniently don't think you're bound to follow, was that they should never pass. Either you're under the law, or you're not. If you're under the law you're under the entire law, as Paul said. If you yourself are being picky about certain commandments from the law, how can you judge others who do the same?
 
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one11

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Well, that's the contradiction right there...

The only thing Jesus said about the jots and tittles of the law that you so conveniently don't think you're bound to follow, was that they should never pass. Either you're under the law, or you're not. If you're under the law you're under the entire law, as Paul said. If you yourself are being picky about certain commandments from the law, how can you judge others who do the same?

I thought Paul was saying "if you live by the law you will be judged by the law". I'm not really sure if there is a difference here. If there is or isn't a difference, could someone explain this to me better so I understand.
 
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Nadiine

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Originally Posted by holo
Well, that's the contradiction right there...

The only thing Jesus said about the jots and tittles of the law that you so conveniently don't think you're bound to follow, was that they should never pass. Either you're under the law, or you're not. If you're under the law you're under the entire law, as Paul said. If you yourself are being picky about certain commandments from the law, how can you judge others who do the same?
And the unsaved ARE under the full measure of the law becuz
they do not have Christ's sacrifice to cover their sin.
We're either under the "Law of Christ", or "the Law & the prophets".
Nothing passed from the law; Christ fulfilled the penalty of the law
(thru His obedience as a man on earth) in man's place.
So ONLY those accepting His fulfillment of the law & penalty (2nd
death) to cover over them (His righteousness over us)
are under Christ rather than law.

But people mistake that to mean, the OT is obsolete & gone.
False. ALL the moral laws continue on today; they are love
towards others.
IF we love others, we won't rape, steal, lie, cheat, extort,
kidnap, fornicate, adulterate, covet, abuse, etc. etc.

If the law were gone, we could live in all the immorality we wanted.

Sadly, people just don't choose to get the truth about how the
law operates; what changed & what remains.
They'de rather make easy blanket claims in ignorance that
"we aren't under law" without understanding that we ARE under
the moral code of that law & the lost ARE under the law becuz
Christ hasn't covered their sin....

but... oh well
 
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HuntingMan

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ANd hunting, as I have posted previously, the word "fornication" has to do with sexual idol worship with temple prostitutes.
No, friend, it is NOT about temple prostitutes as some fallaciously claim to keep from accepting the truth.
In SOME cases in scripture fornication exists alongside and as part of idol worship....in SOME cases there is NO MENTION of idolatry but the word fornciation STILL is used.

So Im afraid you are wrong.
Forniation/porneia/ILLICIT SEX can be partaken of as part of an idolatrous ritual....or Forniation/porneia/ILLICIT SEX can be simply a man taking his FATHERS WIFE as his own.....or it can be ANY number of other ILLICIT sexual acts outside the lawful union of a MAN and a WOMAN who are covenanted as husband and wife for a lifetime.

Porneia...aka ‘’fornication’’
By WmTipton


Some claim that fornication in Matthew is PRE marital sex alone and that divorce and remarriage for any other reason is not permissible.
But we see that conflicts with the use of the word throughout the NT.
Porneia is whoredom, harlotry, illicit sex of any kind.
This included every sexual sin of every nature.
Sex with men, women, animals or any other perversion in existence or any new ones that a person can come up with.
This can be commited by anyone. A husband or wife or a single person.
When porneia (any sexual sin) is carried out by the married, the crime of adultery is committed.

Even the current English definition of ‘’fornication’’ is against these false doctrine as it says NOTHING about Unmarried people, but only that the two engaging in ‘’fornication’’ are not married to each other.

Here is the current definition...
Main Entry: for·ni·ca·tion
Pronunciation: "for-n&-'kA-sh&n
Function: noun
: consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other
Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Notice not a single word about either person being ‘’unmarried’.
One or both could be married to someone else, they just aren't married to EACH OTHER.
Or both could be single.

Fornication means just what porneia presents,...having sex with someone who ISN'T your lawful spouse, whether you're married or not.

Porneia is a word in the Greek language that much of the NT was written in originally.
It is not specifically a religious word, nor was it created to write about any specific sexual in in scripture and it does not center around religious intent/meaning, but simply is showing general sexual immorality regardless of its nature.
The word is as ambigious/subjective as the words 'sexual immorality' are. It is not limited to any specific sexually immoral act, but is used to blanketly speak about this type of 'immorality'.


Here is the greek word rendered as ''fornication'' in your KJV bibles.

G4202
porneia
por-ni'-ah
From G4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry: - fornication.
Also....

In Acts 15 and 21, four items are given for gentiles to abstain from as presented in the following verses.

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication (G4202, same as the exception clause in Matthew).
1. Things offered to idols
2. blood
3. Things strangled
4. fornication (G4202 same as the exception clause).

I ask those who say fornication (porneia G4202) is premarital or betrothal sex only and not “adultery”, why is it that the writer ONLY used ''porneia'' in Acts 15 and 21 and didnt seem to think it necessary to mention ''adultery'' as something to abstain from as well?
Hes already on the topic of sexual sin here, why not mention the big one *IF* adultery is a separate sin?

The reason is "porneia'' covers ANY sexual sin. Paul knew that as did whoever rendered Jesus words in Matthew into greek.
When it was used it in Acts 15, he was laying out a blanket coverage for ANY sexual sin, that we abstain from ALL sexual sin. Just as Jesus meant all sexual sin in Matthew 19.
''Porneia'' (whoredom, harlotry), by default, would be ''adultery'' within a marriage, there was no need to mention adultery, it was covered. And neither was there any need for Jesus to use the word adultery, which would have left a hole or two in His teaching (see ''why didnt Jesus say ''except for adultery)

1 Corinthians chapter 5

We see in the following passage that only the fornicator is mentioned..
I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
(1Co 5:9-13 KJV)

Now, *IF* adultery isnt included in 'porneia' or 'fornication', why on earth didnt Paul mention not keeping company with the adulterer ?
Was Paul stating to not keep company with the fornicator ... but hey, its ok to hang out with adulterers ?

Hardly.
Paul used a word that covers all sexual sin.
He mentions a ''brother'' and isnt it odd that the word he chose rendered as 'fornicator' here is the masculine form of porneia ?

G4205
pornos
Thayer Definition:
1) a man who prostitutes his body to another’s lust for hire
2) a male prostitute
3) a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator

Paul was clearly stating to not keep company with any man called a brother who is out having illicit sex.....married or not.
Porneia and its forms are all inclusive of sexual sin of the married and the Unmarried.

In Ephesians and Colossians both we see references to Fornication, but none about adultery.

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
(Eph 5:3-5 KJV)

(whoremonger being the masculine form ...pornos)

and

When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
(Col 3:4-6 KJV)


So if this porneia (fornication) does not include all sexual sin, then we would have to suppose that Paul is only directing these two churches to abstain from SOME sexual sins (incest, premarital sex, etc) , and surely not adultery (if it were the case that porneia is not all inclusive of sexual immorality)

When Jesus' words were rendered as ''porneia'' in Matt 5:32 and 19:9, He was saying the same thing ''Sexual Sin'' or whoredom. Jesus did not mean just PREmarital sex, and neither does the definition of ‘’fornication’’ present that idea either.

He used a word, the same as in Acts 15, that covers ALL sexual sin....whoredom....as ‘’fornication’’ clearly shows as well. ....porneia even covers the possiblity of bestiality if it has occured.
We cannot divorce our spouse and remarry without committing adultery against that union, EXCEPT for any sexual sin...EXCEPT that this person we marry has had sex with someone they arent married to.

That is what is clearly conveyed with ‘’porneia’’ and what is also presented with the REAL definition of ‘’forncation’’ (not the Unmarried tripe that some pass off on us )

What is funny about this one is we can get total agreement from everyone that a man can ‘’divorce’’ his wife for ‘’porneia’’, but the anti-remarriage camp then restricts the meaning of the word to fit their doctrinal stance...whichever it may be based on the many VARIED versions of their doctrine.

2.0

Fornication defined by Mosaic Law

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that the word 'fornication' is in part defined by the sexual prohibitions in the Mosaic law. (clearly that could never be an exhaustive list)

Supporting Evidence
Acts 15 shows and attempt to have GENTILES in the church follow the Mosaic law.
The council of Jerusalem shows that the gentiles werent to be troubled with it other than 4 things which include abstaining from blood and from fornication (sexual immorality).
It is therefore concluded that 'fornication' is DEFINED by the sexual sins listed IN the Mosaic law....this is evidenced by 1 Cor 5 and the man who was committing FORNICATION who had his fathers wife...a sin that was forbidden in the Mosaic law, but nothing that Ive seen specifically mentioned as being sin in the NT except that one passage.
Did Paul just pull this sin out of his ear ?
No.
Fornication....aka sexual sin...is DEFINED by the law and the acts forbidden therein. The law forbids a man to have his fathers wife and that is exactly what this man was condemned for and cast out of the church over.
(Act 15:5 ) But some of those from the sect of the Pharisees rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses...........Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
(Act 15:19-20 )

Lev 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

(1Co 5:1 EMTV) It is actually heard that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not even named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife!
The EVIDENCE supports that "fornication" in the New testament is DEFINED by sexual prohibitons from the Mosaic law.



3.0

We've established that porneia is used to cover a broad range of sexual immorality.
Now that that IS established, we see that it also quite conclusively covers PREmarital sex as well in 1 cor 7:1-2.
Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.
(1Co 7:1-2 EMTV)
Coming at this with our previous conclusion that 'porneia' is ALL sexual immorality this passage shows conclusively that PREmarital sex is also wrong and needs to be dealt with by having ones own spouse.

Even without the previous conclusion that the word is ALL sexual immorality, this passage entirely on its own condemns PREmarital sex by showing that a man or woman is to have their OWN spouse.

Lets play this nonsense game that porneia is only prostitution for just a moment and examine the verse.

Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.
(1Co 7:1-2 EMTV)
Does it say to avoid this sexual sin let each have their own boyfriend/girlfriend ? Their own lover ?

No, it quite clearly shows that we are to have our own husbands or wives to avoid this sexual sin REGARDLESS of what it might actually be.

It is complete folly to try to assert that Paul MIGHT have also mean 'you can also have sex with someone else you arent married to as long as they arent a temple prostitute"...more like purposefully rejecting the facts.
Whether the immoral and argumentative can accept the facts or not, Paul ONLY gives ONE remedy for avoiding this sexual sin and that is to have OUR OWN SPOUSE.
*IF* you are going to partake of sexual intercourse GET MARRIED !
 
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HuntingMan

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Well, that's the contradiction right there...

The only thing Jesus said about the jots and tittles of the law that you so conveniently don't think you're bound to follow, was that they should never pass. Either you're under the law, or you're not. If you're under the law you're under the entire law, as Paul said. If you yourself are being picky about certain commandments from the law, how can you judge others who do the same?
Well, thats an admission that you dont understand Christs words right there....

I GAVE the scriptures that PROVE that we dont follow the whole law, friend.
Christ never said that we gentiles would follow the letter of the law and *IF* He had His purpose here to begin a NEW covenant would have been nullified, now wouldnt it.

The law EXISTS, it has not disappeared from view, that does not mean we are UNDER it.

And Holo...its not ME you are faulting, Im afraid...it is GODS WORD and our LORD Jesus that you have to be faulting here in what you are claiming about His words.


If you yourself are being picky about certain commandments from the law, how can you judge others who do the same?
Pick up a bible.
Read Acts 15.
If, when you are done, you still need to ask this again, then there is nothing more I can do for you.
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us
, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
That ye abstain from
-meats offered to idols,
-and from blood,
-and from things strangled,
-and from fornication:
from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
(Act 15:24-29 KJV)
YOure argument is with Christ and Paul, Im afraid.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(Rom 6:14-15)


But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
(Gal 3:23-25)


But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
(Gal 5:18)
 
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HuntingMan

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Hunting,

Acts 15 was Paul telling a specific group, harrassed by the "judiazers", to do a few things to get them off their backs about keeping the whole law. LAter in Romans 14 and 1Cor8 he goes on to say something comepletely different. So either Acts 15 is for a specific instance and not the whole body of believers or God and Paul changed their minds. Many see the Acts 15 as a compromise needed to help believers crack the wall of separation between the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers and make them one body rather than dividing the church over non-issues.
It doesnt matter that they were being harassed.
Are you claiming that if *I* were being harassed in the same way that the rules would be different ?
Preposterous.
Acts 15 was given in response TO something specific...as MOST instruction and law typically is...that doesnt nullify that it is for the GENTILES who come to God...just as the text shows.
Unless you can PROVE that it does not apply blanketly then you are wasting our time, quite frankly.
What you will HAVE to provide is something AFTERWARD in the NT showing that we ARE to obey the whole law.
Can you provide anything because I just provided a list that shows that we ARENT under law....

Im not interested in how some 'see' Acts 15. I have eyes and a mind...I can read it myself and SEE what it says.
Where the Mosaic Law is concerned, there is little we gentiles need to concern ourselves with....fornication...ILLICIT sex....being one of those things we DO have to obey as proven by 1 Cor 5. And that isnt because we are UNDER law. It is because Gods will is not, even under THIS covenant, that men and woman should be having sex with anyone other than their lawful spouse...as proven by 1 Cor 7:1-2.
 
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HuntingMan

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Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?


Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the image itself of the things, can never with the same sacrifices, which they offer continually every year, make those approaching perfect.


Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(Gal 2:16)


I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
(Gal 2:21)


This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(Gal 3:2-5)


But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
(Gal 3:11-12)

..
 
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chingchang

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Hey chingy...

Hey floaty...I'm going "bold" too.

Do you swing?

No.

Do you know Jesus Christ as your Saviour?

Yes.

Because Christians know that such immoral behaviour separates them from the Lord they love and are supposed to obey. It's a no-brainer.

I agree that sin separates us from God. I also agree that if we love him we will obey him. I disagree with your assessment that this behavior is...in all cases...sinful. I can...and have to some degree in this thread...build a relatively strong Biblical case for this behavior not being sinful in all cases. To you...I am most confident...it would be sinful behavior. You would have to violate your own conscious to engage is "disgusting" swinging sex.
So, why do you argue for such sinful ideas?

I'm not advocating swinging...as some of my other posts have stated. I'm just not going to point at it and call it sin because I'm not convinced it is in all cases. I truly believe that it is possible for Christians to engage in this activity without sinning. Possible is the key word. I'm 100% sure I can't convince you of that at this point in your spiritual life...and I'm 95% sure I'll never be able to convince you of this. I think most believers get puffed-up with the little wisdom of God that they aquire...and they stop seeking. I used to believe what you believe...but I continued to seek and I have grown spiritually. I'll call certain things sin that are very obvious. But...otherwise those "sinful behaviors" have to fail the "royal law"-test before I'll call them sin. Because I believe strongly that swinging is not adultery...it falls under the less-obvious potentially sinful behaviors category. I do think it is possible for swinging to pass the "royal law"-test and that is why I've arrived at where I am on this topic.

Hugs Sister!
CC
 
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Nadiine

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I agree that sin separates us from God. I also agree that if we love him we will obey him. I disagree with your assessment that this behavior is...in all cases...sinful. I can...and have to some degree in this thread...build a relatively strong Biblical case for this behavior not being sinful in all cases. To you...I am most confident...it would be sinful behavior. You would have to violate your own conscious to engage is "disgusting" swinging sex.
You haven't built ANY case whatsoever.

Denial isn't a case, it's rejection of what the bible teaches
clearly. & it's adultery.

Matthew 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her
hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
 
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chingchang

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You haven't built ANY case whatsoever.

Denial isn't a case, it's rejection of what the bible teaches
clearly. & it's adultery.

If you keep repeating that...people will actually start to believe it. Repeat after me "The Bible I hold in my hand is the inerrant Word of God". :thumbsup:

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