Swingers - Swapping Partners

[wkonwtrtom]

I have to go for now. If you want to really delve into the subject of Sex and the Church over the centuries, pick up a copy of Divine Sex by Philo Thelos.

 

[Hentenza]

No we are not in the OT - but Jesus was. So when he spoke of things to the Pharisees, he spoke in the context of the OT law, not the NT. And if you want to live under ANY OT law, you must go back to living under ALL OT law. Gal 5:4, Rom 3:19, & Gal 5:18

The OT only points us to the futility of trying to use the OT law to justify ourselves. It is not a rule book for the NT believer. All of the OT law is summed up by Jesus in the only 2 commandments He gave us. Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.

Matt 19 is Jesus telling the Pharisees that they have circumvented the OT law by allowing a man to discard one piece of property (wife) and take another. This is the same thing that an adulterer does by taking the property (wife) of another man. He is discarding one wife for another. Even when a man only cast away his wife in his own mind by lusting in such a way that he disregarded the wife he already had and wanted another woman more than her.

Jesus never said anything against polygamy so it was not the fact that a man would take a new wife but the fact that he was disposing or discarding one he alreayd had. Again Motive.

I know that you would bring up fornication too. Everyone does eventually. But fornication is not a sexual sin as such but a sin of worshiping another god with sex. Fornication was all about temple sexual worship with priestesses (prostitutes) . The word translated fornication is from the Greek "porneia" which in context and properly translated is about sex during idol worship, not premarital sex in scripture - ever. But that subject is for a whole different thread.

Swinging may be a sin - to those whose consciences convict them. However, to those who are not under that conviction, it is not sin. Just as Romans 14:22-23 says, Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

If you believe something is a sin, it is for you, even if not specifically deliniated in scripture. But because you believe it is does not make it a sin for someone else. That said, knowing that youbelieve it is a sin, I would never ask you to participate as that would be a violation of the second NT commandment to love my neighbor since it would bring offense to you.

This sounds like the "I want to have my cake and eat it too" theology. You are ignoring the basic message taught throughout the bible concerning sexual immorality. Do you think that Jesus would have been OK with married couples exchanging partners for sexual gratification? Does being of one flesh means that you can swap that flesh?

I am dismayed at the "new gospel' being taught by those that think that morality is relative to what they believe which completely takes away the objective truth of scripture.

 

[one11]

I can't find kwonwtrtom's post as this is a LONG THREAD!

I just wanted to point out to kwonwtrtom's that God never allowed divorce. Jesus said Moses allowed divorce because your (men's) hearts were hard.

 

[NaLuvena]

I have to go for now. If you want to really delve into the subject of Sex and the Church over the centuries, pick up a copy of Divine Sex by Philo Thelos.

You still miss the point. The verses do not refer to idol worship, but to sexual immorality. That is what the verses refer to.

 

[holo]

In other words, THE HECK WITH WHAT JESUS SAID in Matthew.

When was the last time you gouged out your eye when it tempted you to sin? To heck with what Jesus said, eh?

You want to create a disposable world where we make promises that
we can violate & go back on our words.

No I don't.

I"m afraid that marriage IS a contract. We make a promise by
it.

And if you for whatever reason fail to live up to that contract, you will never ever get another chance.

What is the grace covenant? A Covenant is a promise - marriage is for
life. Two become one flesh & create their own family unit.
It is a BINDING relationship just like being God's child is binding.

I'm not saying it's not binding. But the fact is that marriages, in the real world, do break apart, and some marriages should never have happened in the first place.

But apparently God cares more about whether or not you've entered into some sort of contract than about what would actually be the greater good for you (and your spouse).

(those who LIVE BY & ACT ON WHAT THEY'RE TAUGHT IN GOD'S WORD
ARE WISE in obedience).

So why do you keep on disobeying God all the time?

I think it's time to mention here that this discussion is now way off topic
& it needs to get back to the subject.

It's way off topic to discuss actual people who are actually influcenced by your stand on these things? Don't think so. This woman I mention, for example, is extremely ON TOPIC. But you don't seem to want to discuss such real-life scenarios.

But every pastor I know says that violence/abuse is biblical grounds for
divorce due to the threat alone. I agree.

OK. Does the bible say this anywhere?

& if someone is doing that, they're most likely not Christian anyways which I think gives the spouse an "out".

Does the bible say you're allowed to divorce someone if they don't share your faith?

If a spouse leaves (separates) and doesn't formally divorce, they can most likely count on the other to divorce them eventually & be free of it.

Oh, so that would be OK with God then, as long as you don't do the divorce part yourself, but rather rely on the other person to do it? Then you're free to go? Too sad then, that you'll be robbing the other person of the chance to ever get married again...

But there are many Christian professionals who have written books &
studies on marriage & when remarriage is not biblically lawful.

And why exactly would you trust in these "christian professionals," whoever they may be?

I'm talking about arbitrary fighting & being unhappy due to personal conflicts that people are divorcing.

Sure, there may be all sorts of stupid reasons people may get a divorce. They may get divorced over the colour of their kitchen floor tiles. But that's not what I'm talking about.

Again we get back to "this is only to the Jews"... divorce & remarriage
affect EVERYONE, not just Jews. If you marry, you take on God's
instruction becuz marriage is a universal institution.

What about the rest of Jesus' instructions? Why aren't they universal?

If it didn't pertain to you, God would say you aren't married in the NT
and be done with marriage.
The act of sex alone makes you ONE with another person - where does
that only apply to Jews? :o It pertains to all human beings who engage in
the sex act.

That makes my situation, for one, kind of tricky.

You see, I once had sex with a woman before I got married. Does this mean my marriage is in fact just one big act of adultery? Am I in fact married to that woman I slept with way back when? Or does God see me and my wife as a validly wed couple?

Are we now going to manipulate the bible to say "oh, murder was only
given to the Jews to obey - I can hate & murder anyone becuz
I'm a gentile" =)~

You could behave like a depraved sinner, but I can't think of any good reason that you should. But hey, if you need a commandment to keep you from murdering people, I guess you confirm what Paul said about the law being for the wicked and ungodly.

Just becuz King David repented of adultery, doesn't mean he went
on to go find another man's wife to take for his own.

I think David had several wives...

All you seem to be advocating here is that 'yes, I know it's adultery
if I remarry, I'll just remarry then 'repent' later on becuz I get a
2nd chance'.

Then you really need to read over again what I've posted. I've said several times pretty much the opposite of that.

Is that repentance? No it's not.
Sadly most people think remarriage is the answer that will bring
happiness too - in most cases, stats show the 2nd marriage doesn't
work either & it's harder with more baggage & emotional scars
& children from the first marriage.
You're assumption is that remarriage solves the problem

No it's not. Not at all. I'm questioning the idea that divorce and/or remarriage is, in and of itself, sinful and that God won't acknowledge or bless a second marriage.

Either way, it doesn't matter what the outcome is, what matters is if we
obeyed God.

Of course the outcome matters! Doesn't God care about the outcome of things?

Too often people think if something good happens from sin, that it
must not be sin.

So, do you think it was a sin for my friend to run away from her abusive, psychopathic husband? Do you think she should've stayed with him?

Are we more interested in ourselves, or pleasing God & doing
His service? This life isn't about us & our comfortability - contrary
to many people who drink the koolaid of postmodern thought.

What is it about?

 

[god's_pawn]

Unhealthy now is a sin? So how do you determine unhealthy? That which would cause injury? Sickness? Death?

Wouldn't it be unhealthy to then participate in almost any physical sport where injury, even permanent injury or death may occur? Like bunjie Jumping, parachuting, car racing, etc? What about just riding a motorcycle on the street?

The facts are that untreatable STDs are rare - rarer than being struck by lightning for instance. But you will still walk in the rain with a metal shaft umbrella. The treatable ones are also the ones that are easiest to prevent. Almost like wearing a back up parachute in case the first on fails.

There is a tremendous amount of hysteria over STDs that is unwarranted. Besides, I have already dealt with the STDs in the swinging community (almost non-existant due to testing, prevention measures, and the fact that swinging is not as indescriminate as most non-swingers believe.)

yes unhealthy is a sin. our bodies are temples and we are told to take care of them. and don't even try your little straw man on me. going out and breaking your arm is obviously unhealthy. playing soccer is fun and even healthy. accidently tripping, falling on your arm and breaking it is an accident, not an automatic unhealthy side effect of playing soccer. whether or not STDs or blown out of proportion, they still exist and are still unhealthy. low risk doesn't matter here, it is still present and therefore still unhealthy. there really is a huge difference between non-existent and almost non-existent. the laws of the OT were not made for the Israelites to have something to follow, but because they were simply good and healthy things to follow. take for instance the dietary laws: it so happens that pork and other forbidden meats are rather unhealthy meats. yes they have nutritional value, but there are also certain other things in them that are not healthy for us to eat. you can always say that because of what Christ did we don't have to follow the law. this is perfectly true, and it cannot save us. however not having to, is different than we should not. the thing that was wrong with Judaism is that they were saying you had to meet the requirements of the law. this is not true, we don't have to follow them; however we can follow it if we feel the need to. what i'm really saying is don't ridicule people for using those laws as arguments, they are still valid at least as healthy issues go. if God didn't want Israel doing things, it was because they were better off when they didn't. we are not required to follow the law (save for the 10 commandments) but it is still good and was made with good in mind.

 

[holo]

So part of that passage was to Jews and part was to 'whomsoever'?
Which parts are which?
Help a girl out here holo !

Jesus said about himself and his ministry that he was sent "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." The jews asked Jesus about issues of the law and he explained them. As Paul says, whatever the law says, it says to those who are under it.

I'm not a jew under the law, so Jesus' teaching and explanations of the law isn't for me in the sense that I'm supposed to follow the law in this or that way. It's a huge misunderstanding in the church today; people think the gospel is what Jesus taught the jews. A jew asked Jesus what he would have to do to get to heaven, and Jesus said he would have to sell everything he owned and give to the poor. That's not the gospel. It's the law (the gospel was completed and revealed later). But all the while people are going on about how "we must do as Jesus said" they conveniently ignore this and many other things Jesus said. They pick out the parts he said about divorce, or about the sabbath, or whatever.

I'm not suggesting there's nothing for us to learn from Jesus' instructions on the law. But those things aren't the gospel.The gospel is what Jesus did. Paul was entrusted with preaching the gospel, and we have to read even Jesus' words in the light of that gospel. Instead of trying to be some sort of half-jews under some sort of half-law which is a mixture of old and new testament.

 

[holo]

My friend, I have to disagree with you on this one.....

If you shack up with someone for years, people might not say anything if you leave her and marry someone else, but one you are joined to someone else, you become one flesh, essentially married in God's eyes.

People tend to give the ceremony more importance than God does. There was no wedding ceremony for Adam and Eve.

Well, that's my point...

A man who's been "shacking up" for most his life may come to church and get saved and all, and be free to marry whoever he wants - it won't be sin. But if he's ever been officially married for, say, a year, he's not allowed to remarry at all. In other words, God can forgive and forget a lifetime of shacking up, but not if you dropped by a priest and did the ceremony...

 

[god's_pawn]

Jesus said about himself and his ministry that he was sent "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." The jews asked Jesus about issues of the law and he explained them. As Paul says, whatever the law says, it says to those who are under it.

I'm not a jew under the law, so Jesus' teaching and explanations of the law isn't for me in the sense that I'm supposed to follow the law in this or that way. It's a huge misunderstanding in the church today; people think the gospel is what Jesus taught the jews. A jew asked Jesus what he would have to do to get to heaven, and Jesus said he would have to sell everything he owned and give to the poor. That's not the gospel. It's the law (the gospel was completed and revealed later). But all the while people are going on about how "we must do as Jesus said" they conveniently ignore this and many other things Jesus said. They pick out the parts he said about divorce, or about the sabbath, or whatever.

I'm not suggesting there's nothing for us to learn from Jesus' instructions on the law. But those things aren't the gospel.The gospel is what Jesus did. Paul was entrusted with preaching the gospel, and we have to read even Jesus' words in the light of that gospel. Instead of trying to be some sort of half-jews under some sort of half-law which is a mixture of old and new testament.

when Jesus was explaining the law, He was explaining parts of it that the Pharisees who followed the law did not understand. true understanding of these parts would have allowed them to better understand the Gospel which Jesus also preached. selling everything and giving to the poor is part of the gospel, not the law. if it was part of the law, you would find it back in the OT where the law was given. by selling everything, you are removing the world's holding on you and thus in a position to serve others. this can be seen with the rich young man. he had many things and therefore could not sell all he had for they were to dear to him. part of the gospel is helping other or rather the good works that are the evidence of our faith and thus the giving to the poor part.

 

[god's_pawn]

Well, that's my point...

A man who's been "shacking up" for most his life may come to church and get saved and all, and be free to marry whoever he wants - it won't be sin. But if he's ever been officially married for, say, a year, he's not allowed to remarry at all. In other words, God can forgive and forget a lifetime of shacking up, but not if you dropped by a priest and did the ceremony...

according to Paul, sex was the real definition of Marriage. which is to say that "shacking up" with someone, you are technically married. if you are trulu saved out of that situation, then you will marry the person you were "shacked up" with.

 

[holo]

when Jesus was explaining the law, He was explaining parts of it that the Pharisees who followed the law did not understand. true understanding of these parts would have allowed them to better understand the Gospel which Jesus also preached. selling everything and giving to the poor is part of the gospel, not the law. if it was part of the law, you would find it back in the OT where the law was given. by selling everything, you are removing the world's holding on you and thus in a position to serve others. this can be seen with the rich young man. he had many things and therefore could not sell all he had for they were to dear to him. part of the gospel is helping other or rather the good works that are the evidence of our faith and thus the giving to the poor part.

The man asked Jesus what he would have to do to get to heaven, and Jesus answered the truth. That's what we'd all would have to do to be saved. But thankfully, our salvation doesn't depend on how well we do, but on what Jesus has already done

 

[holo]

according to Paul, sex was the real definition of Marriage. which is to say that "shacking up" with someone, you are technically married. if you are trulu saved out of that situation, then you will marry the person you were "shacked up" with.

Umm... so am I in fact married to that first woman I slept with? She lived in my apartment for some time.

 

[god's_pawn]

The man asked Jesus what he would have to do to get to heaven, and Jesus answered the truth. That's what we'd all would have to do to be saved. But thankfully, our salvation doesn't depend on how well we do, but on what Jesus has already done

part of we really do end up doing is good deeds. if we really mean our faith then we will do those things. so ultimately yes, we must do those things. perhaps we don't have to take it so litteraly, but still, if we mean our faith we will do thise things.

 

[god's_pawn]

Umm... so am I in fact married to that first woman I slept with? She lived in my apartment for some time.

according to the Paul (i.e. the Bible) yes. 1 Corinthians 6:16 "Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."

i'm not calling her a prostitute, but i think it's obvious that it's not only for prostitutes that this is true.

becoming one flesh is used as a definition of marriage. Ephesians 5:31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."

 

[NaLuvena]

Well, that's my point...

A man who's been "shacking up" for most his life may come to church and get saved and all, and be free to marry whoever he wants - it won't be sin. But if he's ever been officially married for, say, a year, he's not allowed to remarry at all. In other words, God can forgive and forget a lifetime of shacking up, but not if you dropped by a priest and did the ceremony...

My point is, God considers us joined to whomever we have sex with......

A man who's been "shacking up" for most of his life could come to church and marry some else, and the church would be fine with that, but in God's eyes (IMO) the guy was already joined to the lay he shacked up with. Civil law recognizes this, by the "de-facto" marriage status.

BTW, it won't be the first time the church has condoned something that God considers sin, and sadly, it won't be the last....

 

[Nadiine]

Originally Posted by holo

The man asked Jesus what he would have to do to get to heaven, and Jesus answered the truth. That's what we'd all would have to do to be saved. But thankfully, our salvation doesn't depend on how well we do, but on what Jesus has already done
​

The context of that story tells you he was extremely wealthy -
he also thought he obeyed ALL the law (which is indeed
highly doubtful - but he thought he was holy already),

Jesus exposed that his prized possession was love of MONEY -
& until he was able to part with serving money, he couldnt'
serve Christ. It was his biggest hinderance to the kingdom
of God.
As the bible also clearly states, you cannot serve 2 masters -
you can't serve God and mammon. You'll pick 1 or the other.

So he could follow all the laws he claimed to obey, but his love of riches kept him from true salvation; they trust in wealth & it's put before
God.(idolatry).
& yes that does pertain to everyone; Jesus later said it was easier for
a camel to enter the eye of a needle than a rich person
into heaven.

So clearly, wealth consumed this man's heart. & this passage is by
no means any exclusion to the other scriptures which declare
what salvation consists of.

 

[holo]

The context of that story tells you he was extremely wealthy -
he also thought he obeyed ALL the law (which is indeed
highly doubtful - but he thought he was holy already),

Jesus exposed that his prized possession was love of MONEY -
& until he was able to part with serving money, he couldnt'
serve Christ. It was his biggest hinderance to the kingdom
of God.
As the bible also clearly states, you cannot serve 2 masters -
you can't serve God and mammon. You'll pick 1 or the other.

So he could follow all the laws he claimed to obey, but his love of riches kept him from true salvation; they trust in wealth & it's put before
God.(idolatry).
& yes that does pertain to everyone; Jesus later said it was easier for
a camel to enter the eye of a needle than a rich person
into heaven.

So clearly, wealth consumed this man's heart. & this passage is by
no means any exclusion to the other scriptures which declare
what salvation consists of.

The gospel was revealed later, and we know, on this side of the cross, that salvation is a gift from God. Our actions or lack of actions don't save us. But this man asked, like many do today, what we must DO to be saved. And Jesus told the truth. It wouldn't be any different for you. If you want to DO something to get to heaven, you must indeed give away all your possessions. AND keep the entire rest of the law, of course. Jesus' point was to show that even though this man (and you and I and anybody else) constantly try to deserve a place in heaven, the ONLY way to get there is by grace. If it depended anything else, we would all be lost. There's not one single thing that you do, or feel, or mean, that ensures your salvation. Not a single thing. It's ALL grace.

 

[one11]

I don't see why people would take the marriage vows to be faithful unto only each other if they wanted to be "swingers"? Why get married at all then?

I see this swinger lifestyle as partly due to that thing called a "mid life crisis" which is a realization that one really is mortal and going to die or that their youth is over.

I just read some posts on a secular msn page regarding infidelity and all the posters said if it's just a bf and you've been hurt by cheating you may want to move on to another person. However, if you are married and have children, you may want to work it out for the children's sake. But most said once a cheating has occurred in marriage, it might be impossible to regain that bond.

I'd also say that very few couples find this experience of swapping a happy one. People are jealous creatures, even secular ones.

The grass is always greener on the other side... or is it? People are not only basically jealous creatures but they are also selfish creatures and many also want to constantly test God by going outside of certain boundaries.

But again to say we are monogamous creatures I think would be false, but there is happiness to find within monogamy so that trust is not broken. Once trust is broken and suspicions creep in, such as one of the swappers thinking their loved one might be falling in love with someone else, there relationship is going to be on very shaky ground if not fall apart altogether.

People shouldn't live their lives only by what the Bible says or doesn't say. We do have common sense too.

 

[Nadiine]

But again to say we are monogamous creatures I think would be false, but there is happiness to find within monogamy so that trust is not broken.

If God's institution of marriage is for 1 person for life, then I'd
have to say we're created monogamous.
Sin nature however might play a huge roll in the corruption
of that ideal. & depending on how much we feed our sin
nature, it can have alot more power over us than most
other people who don't allow themselves to be tempted
by others or other things.

In other words, a person who continues in porn will only
feed lust. We shouldn't wonder why they're having so
much trouble with sexual immoralities.

Galations 5 tells us how to avoid living defeated in sin, by
walking in the Spirit of God. The closer we are to Him, the
less likely we'll be to fall into traps & snares.

I think there's alot to mid life crisis issues - I've always said
that adultery often has more to do w/ the person committing it
than their spouse; they have internal issues that don't
necessarily have anything to do w/ lack of love of their
partner. (wrong as it may be)

People shouldn't live their lives only by what the Bible says or doesn't say. We do have common sense too.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this,
our common sense shouldn't be violating scripture principles.

 

[one11]

If God's institution of marriage is for 1 person for life, then I'd
have to say we're created monogamous.
Sin nature however might play a huge roll in the corruption
of that ideal. & depending on how much we feed our sin
nature, it can have alot more power over us than most
other people who don't allow themselves to be tempted
by others or other things.

In other words, a person who continues in porn will only
feed lust. We shouldn't wonder why they're having so
much trouble with sexual immoralities.

Galations 5 tells us how to avoid living defeated in sin, by
walking in the Spirit of God. The closer we are to Him, the
less likely we'll be to fall into traps & snares.

I think there's alot to mid life crisis issues - I've always said
that adultery often has more to do w/ the person committing it
than their spouse; they have internal issues that don't
necessarily have anything to do w/ lack of love of their
partner. (wrong as it may be)


I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this,
our common sense shouldn't be violating scripture principles.

I meant it's only common sense that we as humans are jealous creatures, whether Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics, whatever. We don't need the Bible to tell us that, so I'm saying this is a human heart issue that involves common sense whether one is Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist...

Also this comment was meant to be posted to Holo who says we are under Grace once and for all. I believe that too, but that doesn't mean we don't have intuitive wisdom or common sense.