• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Genesis to be Taken Literally?

Status
Not open for further replies.

DontSpamMeBro

Newbie
Dec 22, 2008
2
0
✟22,612.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Hey all,

just signed up because I couldn't find any books I liked on whether or not the first chapters in Genesis are supposed to be taken literally. Obviously there are some differing opinions, but I was hoping I could get some good book recommendations to educate me on the subject and what the current leading theories are and why.

Links and such would also be appreciated as well, but in general the more in depth information I can get the better.

Thanks.
 
Last edited:

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,262
52,668
Guam
✟5,158,996.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Hello --- nice to meet you --- :wave:

Hey all,

just signed up because I couldn't find any books I liked on whether or not the first chapters in Genesis are supposed to be taken literally. Obviously there are some differing opinions, but I was hoping I could get some good book recommendations to educate me on the subject and what the current leading theories are and why.

Links and such would also be appreciated as well, but in general the more in depth information I can get the better.

Thanks.
The best book I've read to date on taking the Bible literally is Things to Come, by J Dwight Pentecost.

It's very technical, but it gives the history of the Allegorical Method, and how allegorists wanted to combine Greek thought with Hebrew literalism.

A very good read --- but it is technical.

He brings it all down to the School of Alexandria (Allegory Method) vs the School of Antioch (Historical-Grammatical Method).
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
Well, there's always Answers in Genesis (www.aig.com , if memory serves me correctly) and ICR for some of the more serious neo-creationist viewpoints. You'll also find them advertising a lot of their own materials on those websites.

Good books that I've read from the theistic evolutionist viewpoint, from highest priority to lowest, would be:

Perspectives on an Evolving Creation (edited by Keith Miller)
Genesis 1-4: A Linguistic, Literary and Theological Commentary (C. John Collins)
Finding Darwin's God (Kenneth Miller)
The Creationists (Ronald Numbers)
Darwin's Forgotten Defenders ([first name?] Livingstone)

The last two are more historical overviews of the background of the creationist movement than theological treatises. From the atheist / non-religious point of view, The Creationist Debate by Arthur McCalla is just about the kindest coverage of the whole thing. If you can get past the constant liberal slagging of the Bible. I recently also came across a compilation called The Panda's Black Box which is a good, fair and reflective set of essays specifically about ID.

One of the best resources online in this respect is a blog maintained at http://evanevodialogue.blogspot.com . I don't personally follow it very closely but whatever I've seen from it is good and solid.
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hello --- nice to meet you --- :wave:

The best book I've read to date on taking the Bible literally is Things to Come, by J Dwight Pentecost.

It's very technical, but it gives the history of the Allegorical Method, and how allegorists wanted to combine Greek thought with Hebrew literalism.

A very good read --- but it is technical.

He brings it all down to the School of Alexandria (Allegory Method) vs the School of Antioch (Historical-Grammatical Method).
Wasn't Paul from Tarsus? Gal 4:24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Paul's allegorical interpretation predates either of the early church schools of Antioch or Alexandria.
 
Upvote 0

Mallon

Senior Veteran
Mar 6, 2006
6,109
298
✟30,412.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
Scope out:
Evolutionary Creation by Denis Lamoureux (summarized here: http://www.ualberta.ca/~dlamoure/3EvoCr.htm)
Beyond the Firmament by Gordon Glover (he's got a great sister site with excellent video presentations here: http://www.beyondthefirmament.com/)
Paradigms on Pilgrimage by Stephen Godfrey and Christopher Smith

If it's YECism you're interested in exploring, their most commonly cited textbook is probably Henry Morris' Scientific Creationism.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Darwin's Forgotten Defenders ([first name?] Livingstone)

David

DontSpamMeBro said:
Links and such would also be appreciated as well, but in general the more in depth information I can get the better.

A couple of links you might like:

on the Framework interpretation of Genesis 1
http://www.upper-register.com/papers/framework_interpretation.html


on the Genesis flood and the changing scene of 19th century geology
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p82.htm
 
Upvote 0

DontSpamMeBro

Newbie
Dec 22, 2008
2
0
✟22,612.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Alright thanks everybody, much appreciated

I'll probably buy a couple of these books within the next few days and see what they have to say. I can't imagine not believing Genesis is either

[A] Poetry

or

Wrong*

though, because as of right now, I think the evidence for evolution and the big bang is absolutely overwhelming. But I've always gotten reasonable explanation before when I researched questions I was having difficulty with in my faith so hopefully that'll happen again.

I am thinking I'll purchase "Things to Come" and "Beyond the Firmament." But as I already stated, I think it is going to be incredibly difficult to prove to me (by prove I mean show it's more likely than not, not prove in the 100% sense) the Earth was literally created in a few days a few thousand years ago. So I'm hoping ahead of time these books suggests Genesis isn't meant to be taken literally since as I already said, I feel taking Genesis literally is fighting an uphill battle with me since I've already done some research and pretty convinced in the Big Bang and Evolution (the former of which I think greatly points to a creator as well). That's not to say it's impossible enough information can win an uphill battle and change my mind, it would just require a lot of non-Biblical evidence.

Anyways, thanks again, do these two books sound like solid choice or is there a third or fourth must read?

*And if I thought Genesis was wrong then there would be a bunch more assumptions I'd have to make (such as it is not God inspired, or it is misinterpreted or mistranslated, etc).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,262
52,668
Guam
✟5,158,996.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Anyways, thanks again, do these two books sound like solid choice or is there a third or fourth must read?
I can vouch for Things to Come --- it is rock solid and informative, but very dry. All you'll need though, are the first two or three chapters.

Here's a thread I started some time ago that you may find interesting, but it's based on a literal translation of the Bible, of course.

Click here: 1

God bless!
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
I am thinking I'll purchase "Things to Come" and "Beyond the Firmament."

Anyways, thanks again, do these two books sound like solid choice or is there a third or fourth must read?

Since AV1611VET is recommendng "Things to Come" it is probably as solid a case as you can get for a literal interpretation of Genesis.

"Beyond the Firmament" (and most of the other suggestions you have received) make the opposite case, so starting with these two will give you a good balance of pro and con.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hey all,

just signed up because I couldn't find any books I liked on whether or not the first chapters in Genesis are supposed to be taken literally. Obviously there are some differing opinions, but I was hoping I could get some good book recommendations to educate me on the subject and what the current leading theories are and why.

Links and such would also be appreciated as well, but in general the more in depth information I can get the better.

Thanks.
Literally.
Read Genesis with the[real] Book of Jasher and with 1 Enoch. Enoch and Jasher are not updated into everyday English yet, as both translationsg o back to the 1800's, but they will help you understand that Genesis is true and will fill in the details that Moses left out which he wrote in The Book of Jasher.
http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/home.html
http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch.htm

This is the best version of 1 Enoch at this time: http://www.amazon.com/Book-Enoch-Ronald-K-Brown/dp/0967573718/ref=ed_oe_p



Jasher is also written by Moses [and Joshua, as is said in it].
 
Upvote 0

matt09832

Newbie
Dec 21, 2008
22
0
ohio
✟22,639.00
Faith
Nazarene
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Others
think about creation a little bit...one day? that could mean many things right? millions of years of "evolution" or whatever could of meant "one day".but its all under gods name. then the nexts days or whatever, it could of been millions of years. one day doesnt neccesarily mean our modern 24 hours. God just started the thing and knew what was going to happen. thats just something to think about.
 
Upvote 0

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟26,929.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
think about creation a little bit...one day? that could mean many things right? millions of years of "evolution" or whatever could of meant "one day".but its all under gods name. then the nexts days or whatever, it could of been millions of years. one day doesnt neccesarily mean our modern 24 hours. God just started the thing and knew what was going to happen. thats just something to think about.

But, why not push your logic in the other direction? Why cant the dynamic processes we use to measure time be fit into the 24 hour day?

When we deal with all these dimensionless constants, I think there is a pretty pedestrian preference in the most sophisticated science for a certain set of assumptions that happen to fit nothing more than people's normal sense of what the world is like. Quite frankly, I see Richard Dawkins and Stephen Hawking in some senses are trying to fit these concepts into the worldview of a 10 year old. Things must grow like the bean seed in a jar in the elementary school window, in predicable daily quanta of progression.

Yet, all the while they end up dealing with the most extraordinarily large numbers -- which are mostly unobserved abstractions. The closer you look at this math, the more you see the built-in assumptions by which they operate and which is built in to every test for veracity.

So, if you are going to be playing with enormously powerful exponential processes, why not just push the dynamic rates themselves to outlandish, exponentially large scales and cram it all into six days? Why not? Its largely an imaginary exercise anyway.
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But, why not push your logic in the other direction? Why cant the dynamic processes we use to measure time be fit into the 24 hour day?
So instead of taking hours to cook Christmas dinner in an oven, do you think it could be done in seconds in a blast furnace? Or would it burn to a crisp on the outside before the inside is cooked? In cowboy films the barman slides a glass of beer the whole length of the bar, do you think it could be done a million times faster if he just hit the glass hard and fast enough?

You can't simply make processes run faster. Is there a limit to how fast a glacier can flow? Increase the temperature and it does flow faster. Increase the temperature further and it is no longer a glacier. It melts instead. Mantle plumes push plate tectonics. Would a hotter faster mantle plume push the techtonic plates at superfast speed? Or just melt them?
 
Upvote 0

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟26,929.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So instead of taking hours to cook Christmas dinner in an oven, do you think it could be done in seconds in a blast furnace? Or would it burn to a crisp on the outside before the inside is cooked? In cowboy films the barman slides a glass of beer the whole length of the bar, do you think it could be done a million times faster if he just hit the glass hard and fast enough?

You can't simply make processes run faster. Is there a limit to how fast a glacier can flow? Increase the temperature and it does flow faster. Increase the temperature further and it is no longer a glacier. It melts instead. Mantle plumes push plate tectonics. Would a hotter faster mantle plume push the techtonic plates at superfast speed? Or just melt them?

That's why we conserve energy. As long as we can do Big Bang as something imaginary, just imagine the rules of physics are obeyed in another model, and conserve energy.
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Are the two really comparable busterdog? There are questions about the Big Bang which happened beyond the limits observable universe, for which we have very little information, in conditions of temperature and density far beyond the understanding of science where relativity and quantum mechanics merge in ways that are unknown. On the other hand with the age of the earth, the current scientific models are based on known science and are give a beautiful explanation of the vast amount of data we actually have about the earth. Yet because of difficulties understanding the very edge and beginning of the known universe you think it is reasonable basis to replace well established science of the earth with imaginary rules of physics, never yet proposed or observed, when no such creationist model has been found in the 150 years since Origin of Species was published?

What are the limits of this imaginary science you propose? Should we also propose imaginary rules that physics can obey in another model that gives geocentrism? How about a flat earth? If imaginary rules of physics can be proposed to support a young earth, why ever not a flat one?

The Big Bang was accepted because it was a better model that fitted more scientific observations than the previous Steady State model. It will be replaced if a better model comes along, or a modified version of the Big Bang explains present data and new observations better. But what you are proposing is unlike the Big Bang, which was the best explanation available with such limited data. You propose rejecting a thoroughly tested model which fits the vast amounts of data available on the history of the earth, in favour of an non existent imaginary model which explains none of the data, except of course in the imagination.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟26,929.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Are the two really comparable busterdog? There are questions about the Big Bang which happened beyond the limits observable universe, for which we have very little information, in conditions of temperature and density far beyond the understanding of science where relativity and quantum mechanics merge in ways that are unknown. On the other hand with the age of the earth, the current scientific models are based on known science and are give a beautiful explanation of the vast amount of data we actually have about the earth. Yet because of difficulties understanding the very edge and beginning of the known universe you think it is reasonable basis to replace well established science of the earth with imaginary rules of physics, never yet proposed or observed, when no such creationist model has been found in the 150 years since Origin of Species was published?

What are the limits of this imaginary science you propose? Should we also propose imaginary rules that physics can obey in another model that gives geocentrism? How about a flat earth? If imaginary rules of physics can be proposed to support a young earth, why ever not a flat one?

The Big Bang was accepted because it was a better model that fitted more scientific observations than the previous Steady State model. It will be replaced if a better model comes along, or a modified version of the Big Bang explains present data and new observations better. But what you are proposing is unlike the Big Bang, which was the best explanation available with such limited data. You propose rejecting a thoroughly tested model which fits the vast amounts of data available on the history of the earth, in favour of an non existent imaginary model which explains none of the data, except of course in the imagination.

They are probably not comparable in terms of the time spent in working out the scientific bugs. Far fewer man-hours (and grants) have been invested in creationism. The latter is probably as not as elegant and refined as a field of study. However, that does not make the challenges to the conventional model any less staggering and revolutionary. Progressing science proves the assumptions are enormous.

There are really two core issues here.

One is that I just generally dont buy into grand equations with large numbers, except as, very strictly, theories. Theories generally are not the same as proof. Proof is what excludes competing theories. The Big Bang has huge issues with its underlying assumptions.

The dark energy problem is a valid recognition of ciphers in the overall math, but if one is to assume that this energy must only manifest in a certain way, at that point we are doing the imagination thing and condemning other competing theories because they dont fit the dream.

Whether one looks at an electric universe or some other outlandish model, there is indeed alot energy manifest in terms of its results.

In sum, cosmology involves impossibly grandiose assumptions. They are so grandiose that there should be freedom to re-arrange what is assumed to be constant and what is assumed to be an enormous and wildly fluctuating variable -- which dark energy represents.

The second issue is the conservation of energy issue. Many theoreticians who dont even like Setterfield do lots of interesting math that doesnt even find mass to be constant in fundamental particles. This is used to account for some of the observed phenomena, such as red-shift. You are also aware that conventional science has started to document and explore the frontier of variation in dimensionless constants. It is hard to image a less reliable and stable science than one in which such things are so changeable. It certainly allows for interesting theories, but it is pretty laughable as a method of deriving dogma to exclude the competition. All other things are not equal in such a universe -- necessarily -- and as such, there is no reason why one cannot conserve energy when the rate of atomic decay, for example, is increased.
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
One is that I just generally dont buy into grand equations with large numbers, except as, very strictly, theories. Theories generally are not the same as proof. Proof is what excludes competing theories. The Big Bang has huge issues with its underlying assumptions.

The dark energy problem is a valid recognition of ciphers in the overall math, but if one is to assume that this energy must only manifest in a certain way, at that point we are doing the imagination thing and condemning other competing theories because they dont fit the dream.

Whether one looks at an electric universe or some other outlandish model, there is indeed alot energy manifest in terms of its results.

In sum, cosmology involves impossibly grandiose assumptions. They are so grandiose that there should be freedom to re-arrange what is assumed to be constant and what is assumed to be an enormous and wildly fluctuating variable -- which dark energy represents.

The irony, of course, is that Setterfield's entire work up to now consists of about two dozen grand equations with large numbers (and some fits of statistics with dubious data).

The further irony is that your support of Setterfield often feels like an imaginative flight of fancy that discards any theory that doesn't fit your dream of Biblical literalism.

The second issue is the conservation of energy issue. Many theoreticians who dont even like Setterfield do lots of interesting math that doesnt even find mass to be constant in fundamental particles. This is used to account for some of the observed phenomena, such as red-shift. You are also aware that conventional science has started to document and explore the frontier of variation in dimensionless constants. It is hard to image a less reliable and stable science than one in which such things are so changeable. It certainly allows for interesting theories, but it is pretty laughable as a method of deriving dogma to exclude the competition. All other things are not equal in such a universe -- necessarily -- and as such, there is no reason why one cannot conserve energy when the rate of atomic decay, for example, is increased.

Firstly - who, precisely, are the "theoreticians" connecting change of mass to redshift? If you're talking about redshift quantization, that's been knocked out of contention by the data several times, most recently in 2007.

Secondly, variation in dimensionless constants is miles away from what Setterfield is suggesting. The speed of light is "dimensionful", and in fact changes in dimensionful constants are pretty meaningless anyway in the grand physical scheme of things.

After all, the speed of light was about 5% higher in Rome than today: guess why? Because the Roman mile was about 5% shorter than today's mile, so the speed of light that is 168,000 miles per hour today would have been about 176,000 miles per hour in the day of Jesus. I hope you can see that this kind of change has no real physical significance.

What really matters are changes in dimensionless physical constants. For example, the ratio of mass between a proton and a neutron is very roughly 1:1. A ratio is a dimensionless quantity: whether or not we measure in pounds or kilograms or electronvolts, the ratio of a proton to a neutron should be 1:1. Or else something has gone quite wacky physically.

Thirdly, and for reasons I'm too lazy to explain in layman terms, Setterfield's model actually shouldn't conserve energy. (Noether's conservation theorems: if physical laws aren't isotropic in time then energy shouldn't be conserved, just as how momentum is not conserved when physical constraints aren't isotropic in space) If Setterfield's theorems are self-consistent when energy is conserved, then it isn't actually consistent with the real world; and as far as I've seen, if energy isn't conserved, the world melts down at around the time of Abraham. It's a no-win situation. :p
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.