What if Jesus' body were found?

[WalterPlinge]

Hello.

I'd like to ask a hypothetical question of the members of this forum.

Let's say that tomorrow it was announced that the remains of a man with injuries fitting the description of Jesus Christ was unearthed in the Jerusalem area. These remains are exhaustively tested by the Jewish, Islamic, Christian and secular authorities. They are also examined by respected members of whatever denomination, brotherhood, congregation or fellowship you are affiliated with. The end results are definite and the evidence is overwhelming - these are bones of Jesus of Nazareth.

What would this mean to you?

Before you answer please read on...

Over the years I've asked this question of Christians from many different denominations. Their replies fell (mostly) into three groups. I say mostly because a few of the responses I received can't be shown here on the grounds of politeness.

I call these three groups the Rejecters, the Deniers and the Realists.
The first comprises those who can't or won't entertain the question.
Next are those who deny that the discovery of Jesus's remains would make any difference to what they believe.
Lastly, the Realists, who accept that the finding of Christ's body would undermine everything they believe and know to be true.

Here are some examples from each group.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Rejecters.

"I don't want to even think about that question, let alone answer it."

"The question is irrelevant because the Bible says that He rose from the dead after three days. Therefore those bones aren't His."

"These bones are religious relics like the Shroud of Turin and I'm not a Catholic, so I won't answer your question."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Deniers.

"Even if these are Jesus' bones it means nothing. My personal relationship
with Him proves to me that he is real. I know that He lives because I know Him as my Lord and Saviour."

"I don't believe Jesus' remains can be found because he ascended into heaven. Those who claim the bones are His are doing the devil's work. Anything like this would just be part of an atheist conspiracy."

"This is a matter of faith. Earthly evidence can't overturn faith, which is a spiritual gift from God."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Realists.

"Yes. A discovery like this would mean that my faith is false. Since this is just a hypothetical question there's no harm in saying that. My relationship with Jesus isn't threatened by this - in fact it's strengthened."

"Finding mortal remains as you've suggested would mean that there was no resurrection as described in the Gospels. No resurrection would put the Bible and the whole Christian belief-system into doubt."

"It'd mean that Christianity is a lie. By the way, I'm certain that His bones won't be found. I've no problem thinking hypothetically."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now it's not my intention to insult anyone here or to cause offence. I'm simply asking the members of this forum the same question that I've asked other Christians face-to-face. If the terms Rejecters, Deniers and Realists is problematic, then I'm sorry. These words just seem to me the best way of grouping together the types of response I received to the question. I can, of course, retract them because they're just collective terms of my own making.

Finally, to describe the premise behind the question...
The position I'm holding to when I pose this question is that because the Bible, the Christian faith and practicing Christians exist in the real world they should also deal with any evidence that comes from the real world. If this premise is flawed in any way please feel free to point it out. That was another thing I asked all those I put the initial question to.

So...

"What would the discovery of Jesus' remains mean to you?"

Thanks,

Walter.

 

[Leonard]

Without question that would falsify Christianity. Christianity at its base exists on two statements:

1. Jesus Christ rose from the dead.
2. That Resurrection somehow means my salvation.

The first statement is an historical statement that an event took place. No particular meaning need be attached to that statement. An atheist could feasibly believe in the Resurrection of Jesus. He or she would simply not attach any more significance to the event than to any other event; like "Joe ate a hot dog on Wednesday."

The second statement is the faith statement; the MEANING Christians attach to the event of Christ's Resurrection. "It means my salvation." Now you could argue back and forth all day on that basis and get nowhere: "Jesus' Resurrection means I'm saved."

"Oh, does not!"

"Does too!"

"Does not!"

Ad infinitum.

But the only way for the 2nd statement to have any possibility of being true, is if statement number 1 is true. There MUST have been a physical resurrection of Jesus in our own space/time reality, in order for us to begin to speak intelligently of that resurrection MEANING my salvation.

Christianity has put all its eggs in one basket: The basket of HISTORICITY. If the bones of Jesus are found, Christianity must of necessity cease to exist.

 

[AV1611VET]

So...

"What would the discovery of Jesus' remains mean to you?"

Nothing.

For the record, you can put me in the DENIERS category.

In fact, I'm surprised this hasn't been done yet, given that they've made other anti-Biblical "discoveries":

• the Flood wasn't global
• Egyptians existed before Mizraim was even born
• Moses crossed the Sea of Reeds
• there was no Wilderness Wanderings
• man came from apes

The only thing keeping scientists from finding "Jesus' bones", in my opinion, is that the False Prophet, who, in my opinion, will be earth's greatest scientist*, is reserving that doosey for himself.

* He will "discover" the secret of abiogenesis ---

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

[NewToLife]

I'll start with noting that I think the hypothetical is absurd and that even if a body could be found there would be no method or combination of methods that could actually give any certainty to the identity. That said, taking the hypothetical at face value it would falsify Christianity as Jesus according to the faith is living and ascended. I guess that makes me a realist.

 

[AV1611VET]

So...

"What would the discovery of Jesus' remains mean to you?"

On another note, it wouldn't matter what it meant to me.

As Paul put it:

And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

Not to mention:

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

 

[PastorJim]

Nothing.

For the record, you can put me in the DENIERS category.

Same here.

1 Corinthians 15:17 says that if Christ isn't raised from the dead, then our faith is in vain and we're still dead in our sins.

The Bible is clear: no resurrection = no faith = no forgiveness of sin and no reconciliation with God.

However, if that's true (and it has to be true because it is the only logical conclusion), Paul had no reason to champion the resurection unless he knew (or at least had evidence that caused him to believe) that the resurrection actually happened and I believe that 2 Peter 2:16 shows that this is the case.

Notice that it says that they didn't make up Christ's resurrection and they didn't just hear about Christ's resurrection, but they actually saw the resurrected Christ and they saw Him ascend into Heaven.

Now, obviously, anybody can claim that they saw anything but it simply does not make sense that they would die in order to proclaim something they knew wasn't true.

It also doesn't make sense that the Roman government, which was desperate to put down this new sect they believe posed such a threat, would not have simply presented the body and said, "Here is your Christ. He is dead".

I'm more than willing to consider the consequences of no resurrection, but there is just so much evidence and such an ironclad case for the resurrection that it would be utterly insane to believe that it never happened.

the Flood wasn't global

Not to get off the subject, but I just saw a thing on the Discovery Channel the other day that talked about archaeologists finding fossils of skates and rays and other fish in the mountains of Montana and Idaho.

 

[chosenpath]

This is not a hypothetical question because guess what? You have found the body of Jesus Christ!

WE ARE THE BODY!!!

Roman 12:5
so we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.

1 Corithians 12:12
For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also [is] Christ.

 

[Celticflower]

The hypothetical of the OP is fraught with absurdities. How can positive identification of human remains thousands of years old be made? How would this identification be verified? And how on earth do you propose that all the various branches of Christianity be brought into accord over this identification when we can't even agree on much beyond the basic foundation of our faith?

Of course, I'm not worried about this situation coming up. There are no human remains of Christ, just humans who remain in Him.

 

[Radagast]

The Realists.

"Yes. A discovery like this would mean that my faith is false. Since this is just a hypothetical question there's no harm in saying that. My relationship with Jesus isn't threatened by this - in fact it's strengthened."

"Finding mortal remains as you've suggested would mean that there was no resurrection as described in the Gospels. No resurrection would put the Bible and the whole Christian belief-system into doubt."

"It'd mean that Christianity is a lie. By the way, I'm certain that His bones won't be found. I've no problem thinking hypothetically."

I would agree with that, and so did the Apostle Paul:

"And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. ... And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men -- but Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep." (1 Corinthians 15:14-15,17-20)

You might be interested in the movie The Body (starring Antonio Banderas), which explores exactly this question.

 

[ebia]

Hello.

I'd like to ask a hypothetical question of the members of this forum.

Let's say that tomorrow it was announced that the remains of a man with injuries fitting the description of Jesus Christ was unearthed in the Jerusalem area. These remains are exhaustively tested by the Jewish, Islamic, Christian and secular authorities. They are also examined by respected members of whatever denomination, brotherhood, congregation or fellowship you are affiliated with. The end results are definite and the evidence is overwhelming - these are bones of Jesus of Nazareth.

What would this mean to you?

Before you answer please read on...

Over the years I've asked this question of Christians from many different denominations. Their replies fell (mostly) into three groups. I say mostly because a few of the responses I received can't be shown here on the grounds of politeness.

I call these three groups the Rejecters, the Deniers and the Realists.
The first comprises those who can't or won't entertain the question.
Next are those who deny that the discovery of Jesus's remains would make any difference to what they believe.
Lastly, the Realists, who accept that the finding of Christ's body would undermine everything they believe and know to be true.

Here are some examples from each group.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Rejecters.

"I don't want to even think about that question, let alone answer it."

"The question is irrelevant because the Bible says that He rose from the dead after three days. Therefore those bones aren't His."

"These bones are religious relics like the Shroud of Turin and I'm not a Catholic, so I won't answer your question."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Deniers.

"Even if these are Jesus' bones it means nothing. My personal relationship
with Him proves to me that he is real. I know that He lives because I know Him as my Lord and Saviour."

"I don't believe Jesus' remains can be found because he ascended into heaven. Those who claim the bones are His are doing the devil's work. Anything like this would just be part of an atheist conspiracy."

"This is a matter of faith. Earthly evidence can't overturn faith, which is a spiritual gift from God."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Realists.

"Yes. A discovery like this would mean that my faith is false. Since this is just a hypothetical question there's no harm in saying that. My relationship with Jesus isn't threatened by this - in fact it's strengthened."

"Finding mortal remains as you've suggested would mean that there was no resurrection as described in the Gospels. No resurrection would put the Bible and the whole Christian belief-system into doubt."

"It'd mean that Christianity is a lie. By the way, I'm certain that His bones won't be found. I've no problem thinking hypothetically."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now it's not my intention to insult anyone here or to cause offence. I'm simply asking the members of this forum the same question that I've asked other Christians face-to-face. If the terms Rejecters, Deniers and Realists is problematic, then I'm sorry. These words just seem to me the best way of grouping together the types of response I received to the question. I can, of course, retract them because they're just collective terms of my own making.

Finally, to describe the premise behind the question...
The position I'm holding to when I pose this question is that because the Bible, the Christian faith and practicing Christians exist in the real world they should also deal with any evidence that comes from the real world. If this premise is flawed in any way please feel free to point it out. That was another thing I asked all those I put the initial question to.

So...

"What would the discovery of Jesus' remains mean to you?"

Thanks,

Walter.

The reality is that such a discovery isn't possible. We simply don't have enough physical data about Jesus' body to ever be able to confirm with certainty that such a corpse really was Jesus of Nazareth. Your question is an impossible hypothetical - whether or not Christianity is true.

In principle, however, such a discovery would - if it were possible and were found - put the nail in the coffin of historical Christianity since that depends 100% on a physical resurrection on Easter morning.

As you note, there would always be those that carried on because they didn't believe the evidence, and those (liberal Christians) who carried on because they didn't believe a physical resurrection in the first place. But historic Christianity takes the risk of saying that (in principle) the resurrection was a real, historical event that happened to a real, historical person on a real historical day in a real historical place, and therefore if one could disprove that one would have disproved the central hinge on which all of Christianity swings.

So I guess that puts me in your final category - in principle it would matter, but in practice you won't disprove Christianity in that particular way because there is insuffient data to be able to make positive identification even in theory. Crucified palestinian males in their early thirties were ten-a-penny. What else do you have to look for?

 

[drich0150]

What if Jesus' body were found?

In the accounts of Jesus's accent ion into Heaven, it doesn't say whether or not he takes his resurrected body, merely that he ascended into the clouds, and as he left so he would return in a similar way... We do know that he is body was resurrected because of the accounts of Thomas and the wittiness that had seen him in the time he spent here after the crucification.. But after that.. The Bible is unclear as to what Jesus does with his body when he leaves.

If it is found, then I guess we all will know.. Maybe that's how we get the anti Christ!! We find Jesus and try and clone him. Then I guess man's cup of iniquity will truly have over flowed! I think if nothing else it may make a good book! If anyone is interested in writing this book let me know I have some pretty good twists and turns for it!

So what will this mean for the rest of christianity? I believe this will be a defining moment that will force a separation from wheat and weeds, from sheep and Goats.. Just like the bible says, OOOH scary stuff!

 

[ephraimanesti]

I'd like to ask a hypothetical question of the members of this forum. What if Jesus' body were found?

Ah, the quintessential atheist prayer of desperation and hubris--"What if . . . ."

Why is it that atheists have such difficulty dealing with reality that they are forced to dwell in the land of hypthetical questions? Could it be that in their heart of hearts they know, instintively, that they are not, in fact, evolved animals but are human beings, created in the image and likeness of their Creator-God. How much better if would be if they would consider surrendering themselves to the reality of existence and stop wasting so much time and energy playing mind-games![/SIZE]

The position I'm holding to when I pose this question is that because the Bible, the Christian faith and practicing Christians exist in the real world they should also deal with any evidence that comes from the real world.

YES, YES, YES, YOU'VE GOT IT--you DO understand!

Now what if . . . . you applied it!

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[WalterPlinge]

Thank you all for your responses.

May I politely request those members who have replied but not actually declared their hand to do so. By this I mean the following...

1. If you agree with the basic premise of the initial question and agree that your beliefs fit into one of the three categories, please indicate where you stand. Should you wish to justify your position that's fine.

2. If you disagree with the titles and/or number of categories please say why and offer alternatives. Please select one of those alternatives.

3. Please look at my profile and take note of the fact that I am not an atheist who is looking for Jesus/God/salvation,etc. What I am looking for are answers from the members of this forum to the question at the start of this thread.

I plan to reply here more fully, once other members have had a chance to read and reply to the question.

Thanks,

Walter.

 

[Radagast]

3. Please look at my profile and take note of the fact that I am not an atheist who is looking for Jesus/God/salvation,etc. What I am looking for are answers from the members of this forum to the question at the start of this thread.

If it's debate you are looking for, then "Exploring Christianity" is not the place.

 

[chosenpath]

Thank you all for your responses.

May I politely request those members who have replied but not actually declared their hand to do so. By this I mean the following...

2. If you disagree with the titles and/or number of categories please say why and offer alternatives. Please select one of those alternatives.

My alternative if you must label me is SPIRITUALIST.
why?
John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

There were some who could not understand what Jesus was trying to teach because they were taking his words literally.

John 6:53-54, 56
Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

John 6:60, 63, 66
Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard [this], said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and [they] are life.

From that [time] many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

However there were some who understood and still do to this day.

John 6:67
Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?" But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

 

[WalterPlinge]

If it's debate you are looking for, then "Exploring Christianity" is not the place.

Hello Radagast.

Being very new to this forum I'd appreciate it if you could point me to a section where debate between Christians and non-Christians can take place. After all, polite debate does no harm, right? Thanks.
If such an area doesn't exist do you happen to know of a suitable site where such debate is possible please?

Btw, I'm not actually looking to debate this issue here, within this thread. At the moment I'm more interested in understanding the answers Christians give to the initial question, "If Jesus' body were found, what would this mean to you?"

Are you interested in submitting an answer?

Thank you,

Walter.

 

[Radagast]

At the moment I'm more interested in understanding the answers Christians give to the initial question, "If Jesus' body were found, what would this mean to you?"

Are you interested in submitting an answer?

Watch the movie I mentioned.

 

[WalterPlinge]

Hello again Radagast.

I will certainly seek out and watch the film you mentioned. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Ummm... I do happen to have another question that follows on from your 6:47 a.m. posting on the 18th.

If I want to say something in this thread about any of the replies to my initial question, would that constitute a debate? If so, seeing that you say that "Exploring Christianity" is not the place for a debate could you help me out please?

Please note that I've asked you politely and I don't think that I've written anything here in a rude or offensive manner. Wouldn't it just be common courtesy and good forum etiquette to furnish my polite question with a polite answer?

Thanks in advance,

Walter.

 

[arunma]

Hello Radagast.

Being very new to this forum I'd appreciate it if you could point me to a section where debate between Christians and non-Christians can take place. After all, polite debate does no harm, right? Thanks.
If such an area doesn't exist do you happen to know of a suitable site where such debate is possible please?

As far as I know, such an area doesn't exist on this forum. We used to have a forum on CF called General Apologetics, but this forum was removed because of abuses by atheists. Basically atheist posters would cluster in various threads and make snide and blasphemous comments about Christ, without saying anything of substance. Alas, we all know the power of rhetoric. It became impossible to have intelligent debate in this forum on account of the behavior of certain "angry atheists," and so it does not exist anymore (but you can view the archived threads). If you're looking for any sort of confrontational debate, you'll have to look for it in another forum. If you're looking for discussion here, there are many of us who would be happy to have it with you. However, the Bible teaches that there is no possibility of salvation apart from Jesus Christ, and it will always be our motive that you one day confess Christ as Lord and be saved. This is indeed our agenda, and I prefer not to keep it hidden.

 

[Maranatha27]

First I think I would cry, I think I would be in strong denial, then I belive I would continue in His teachings, because they are matchless. Christ is a substitute for anything, but nothing is a substitute for Christ.

Don't get me wrong, Christ is right now sitting at the right hand of God in that body people so desperately want to find. He promised us everlasting life, and we follow Him, because we know His voice.