• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Can a Christian be a Freemason???

Status
Not open for further replies.

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
72
SC
Visit site
✟21,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That quote is in fact from a website that says it is in all those editions. Rather than sit down and write what I saw in that particular one I copied what they posted. The copy I read is exactly like they quoted. This is a quote from an older monitor and is not found in my copies. All I can say with a surety is that it was in the copy I read and was exactly like I worded it here.
I think you mistake my purpose in asking. I am not questioning its existence, I am merely trying to ascertain a date for the monitors mentioned, in order to determine exactly when the "Masons, Hiram" adulterated Pike quote first appeared, and when it disappeared, and thus understand how long it was around. I've chased this thing around the internet and I find it cited as simply "Kentucky Monitor," and so far the dates have ranged anywhere from 1921 to 1946.

As I've already stated, to my thinking it's a non-issue anyway, when you consider that Pike was not asserting any such bizarre idea as "multiple saviors" as some of the more idiotic accusers claim. He was simply discussing pre-Christian religions which also had a messiah-motif to be found in their ancient writings. And since his discussion of it in his material covering the Scottish Rite 18th degree ultimately points to Christ, I have no problem with it.
 
Upvote 0

JerryL

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2008
584
357
Kentucky
✟69,849.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I think you mistake my purpose in asking. I am not questioning its existence, I am merely trying to ascertain a date for the monitors mentioned, in order to determine exactly when the "Masons, Hiram" adulterated Pike quote first appeared, and when it disappeared, and thus understand how long it was around. I've chased this thing around the internet and I find it cited as simply "Kentucky Monitor," and so far the dates have ranged anywhere from 1921 to 1946.

As I've already stated, to my thinking it's a non-issue anyway, when you consider that Pike was not asserting any such bizarre idea as "multiple saviors" as some of the more idiotic accusers claim. He was simply discussing pre-Christian religions which also had a messiah-motif to be found in their ancient writings. And since his discussion of it in his material covering the Scottish Rite 18th degree ultimately points to Christ, I have no problem with it.
To be honest, I don't have a clue as to the date that quote came from. I don't have access to that particular monitor any longer. The copies I have are from newer versions and don't have that quote.
 
Upvote 0

JerryL

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2008
584
357
Kentucky
✟69,849.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
It’s easy to see that this is lifted totally out of context. “This” is because? What is “this?” We don’t really even have a complete thought here at all, because “this” is not identified, nor is the sentence even concluded, but instead is cut off at the end. Do you actually HAVE a Ky. Monitor, or are you simply repeating the accusations of others? I ask this because I notice a lot of your questions and your list of quotes, are word-for-word, even with the exact same cutoff points, identical to the ones found in a website article, "Can a Christian be a Mason?" by David J. Riggs.
"This is because masonry is a religious institution...." is what your reply is about. I will post the total paragraph to show that it isn't out of context.

"You were ***, because as mason we are taught that no man should ever enter upon any great or important undertaking without first invoking the blessing of Deity. This is because Masonry is a religious institution, and we thereby show our dependence upon and our trust in God."

I can't remember the exact words represented by the ***, but it had to do with kneeling and praying at the alter.
Which brings back to mind about the satanist I met. Who did he invoke in his prayer? During the corperate prayer at the beginning and ending of lodge, who is he and other non-Christians invoking in their prayers? How can we as Christians, stand and have corporate prayer with the various people in lodge that are calling upon their "god"? How can we as Christians yoke ourselves together, at the time of prayer, with the guy calling on satan?

"The important design of the degree is to symbolize the great doctrines of the resurrection of the body and the immortality of the soul; and hence it has been remarked by a learned writer of our order, that the Master Mason represents a man saved from the grave of iniquity, and raised to the faith of salvation. Book of Constitutions, Grand Lodge South Carolina, 1965, pages 141-2)
"You were presented a Lambskin or white leather apron. The lamb has in all ages been deemed an emblem of innocence. By the lambskin, therefore, the Mason is reminded of that purity of life and conduct which is essential to his gaining admission to the Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides."

Does anyone in lodge explain to the satanist that this paragraph doesn't apply to him and he will never see the "celestial lodge above" as long as he prays to satan?
 
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
72
SC
Visit site
✟21,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I have met a "satanist" at a lodge function. I don't think we worship the same god. He, like everyone else, answered that he believed in god. A hindu will have to say he believes in god. Does he believe in the same god as Christians.
I've seen other statements about supposed "satanists" in lodge. If a satanist indeed enters Masonry, he does so as a liar, because a satanist would not have a belief in God. Satanism is not about worship of some being "satan" who is considered "a god" or supreme, its principles are all about the glorification of self and self-determination.

Neither is Masonry about "believing in the same god." Masonry fully acknowledges that men have different ideas about God, and does not try to subsume all into one, but makes no attempt at such a determination at all, telling the individual Mason that his religious beliefs are up to him and not the lodge.
 
Upvote 0

JerryL

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2008
584
357
Kentucky
✟69,849.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I've seen other statements about supposed "satanists" in lodge. If a satanist indeed enters Masonry, he does so as a liar, because a satanist would not have a belief in God. Satanism is not about worship of some being "satan" who is considered "a god" or supreme, its principles are all about the glorification of self and self-determination.

Neither is Masonry about "believing in the same god." Masonry fully acknowledges that men have different ideas about God, and does not try to subsume all into one, but makes no attempt at such a determination at all, telling the individual Mason that his religious beliefs are up to him and not the lodge.
Not really, satan is his "god", so he could answer in the "affirmative" when asked if he believed in "god".
 
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
72
SC
Visit site
✟21,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How can we as Christians yoke ourselves together, at the time of prayer, with the guy calling on satan?
I don't know how you experienced Masonry, but to me it's no "yoke." A yoke is that which is intended to bind two animals together so that they pull a plow in the same direction. I was told when I joined that nothing in Masonry would conflict with my religious beliefs, and I find it to be true. I was told I have the freedom to interpret Masonry according to my religious faith, and I do. There is nothing there that binds me, even to membership, as you yourself should know as a former member.

I can't remember the exact words represented by the ***, but it had to do with kneeling and praying at the alter.
I appreciate the effort, but until such time as I might have a Kentucky Monitor to look at for myself and see both immediate and larger contexts, I will reserve direct comment on even this broader quote. But as I pointed out in the post to which you refer, "religious institution" does not = "a religion," no matter how much material you cite in support of the claim. Just because the comment says Masonry is to be considered a "religious institution," and that its designation as such is tied to the reasons for opening with prayer, and that our trust is in God, do not establish the absurd notion that Masonry is thereby to be taken as "a religion." For one thing, Masonry freely acknowledges that taken as a whole, its members hail from different religions. That in itself should tell you that a designation as "a religion" in the sense that "a Mason" may be taken as a similar designation to "a Christian" or "a Muslim," is false.
How can we as Christians, stand and have corporate prayer with the various people in lodge that are calling upon their "god"?
The same way we do it, potentially at least, every time prayer is offered in any public--and therefore potentially multi-faith--setting. I bowed and prayed at school when prayer was offered by a student before my daughter's induction into Junior Beta Club. I bowed and prayed at school when we attended the awards banquet at my son's high school. I bow and pray when prayer is offered before the football games at the local high school. I bowed and prayed in the chaplaincy program at a Catholic hospital, which I went through as a requirement for the process of ordination--a group which was not merely potentially multi-faith, as we had a Jewish Rabbi as a member of our group of chaplains. I did so also, in the knowledge that I had no way of knowing what faith all the patients in the hospital may hail from, patients who were also hearing the prayer over the hospital intercom and thus being provided with the opportunity to pray the same prayer. I bowed and prayed at meetings with scouts when I was asked to assist with the merit badge requirements of those going for the God & Country badge--scouting being an organization whose principles are perhaps more directly comparable with Masonry than any other organization you could name. I bowed and prayed with members of an advisory board charged with assisting the school district with allocation of 3 million dollars in Title I funds, because as a clergy member of the board, I was generally the one asked to pray. I bowed and prayed along with Lions Club members when I was asked to sit in on a meeting, with no way of knowing what faith any of them may profess.

I really don't understand why, with all the ways in which various settings and organizations in which one may find oneself, they may be engaging in prayer with someone of some other faith, why Freemasonry is thus singled out for such censure, when others are not. The principle, after all, is exactly the same. The Christian is there as a member of his faith, anyone of some other faith is there as a member of his/her faith, even to the point that both are members of said organization; yet no one hints at the least propriety in one, while condemning the practice by Masons. I find the application of this accusation to be inconsistent on the part of accusers.
 
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
72
SC
Visit site
✟21,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not really, satan is his "god", so he could answer in the "affirmative" when asked if he believed in "god".
You miss my point. To my understanding, seeing satan as "god" is not a reflection of anything satanists affirm. Read the principles, for instance, of the "Satanic Bible," and you will find they are all about glorification of the self and of self-will.
 
Upvote 0

angrylittlefisherman

the worst of sinners
Jun 22, 2008
524
57
occidental ca
✟23,426.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Interesting.
There is a man I work with who is an ex mason. He believes that you can be both. I am not so sure. However he believes that the masons are guarding the Ark of the Covenant from the world. Specifically to protect it from pre-milleniallists, who if it was found would probably push for the next Temple to be built, causing a huge war (Armageddon maybe.) He tells me that the sole function of the Masons (formerly known as the Templar Knights and possibly Knigts of Malta too) is to keep peace in the world by hiding the ark of the covenant.
I do not know if it is true. Would make a great read though.
 
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
72
SC
Visit site
✟21,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
53+ pages, and we're still going with this thing? Alright, I'm bored enough to chime in. ^_^

Wayne is right about "satanism"... sort of. There are essentially two groups that identify themselves as "satanists"; theistic satanists and atheistic satanists.

Theistic satanists essentially believe in satan, as he is described in christian mythos. Before you assume that this description helps your case though, remember that christian mythos describes satan as a fallen angel... not a god.

Atheistic satanists believe that "satan" is actually more of a concept or metaphor for the natural desires of mankind. This group is most commonly associated with Anton LeVay, who was the author of The Satanic Bible.


So... in either case, a satanist could not be a mason unless they lied and entered masonry under false pretenses.

And in our jurisdiction, as I'm sure it probably is in many others as well, it's a little more direct than that, as anyone can see from the current Ahiman Rezon, which contains the constitution and by-laws governing all lodges in SC:

Atheist. No atheist can be made a Mason, nor has the institution a fitting place for one who, after acceptance, shall be found to be or to have become an atheist. Hence the fact that one who has been received as a Mason is an atheist is a Masonic offense, and upon conviction thereof he shall stand expelled. (Ahiman Rezon, Code of the Grand Lodge, Second Part, Chapter XXII, Section 248.2, p. 417)
They make it pretty clear, an atheist cannot be made a Mason, and if one tries to slip through the cracks and is found to be an atheist, or even to have become an atheist after joining, upon conviction they will be expelled.
I daresay you will probably find little difference in the by-laws of any other Grand Lodge.
 
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
72
SC
Visit site
✟21,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Just to be clear though, I wouldn't say the issue comes up all that often. Some of the bylaws make it sound like there's a constant "witch hunt" for atheist Masons. In actuality, I've never inquired about the religious beliefs of my brothers, nor have they ever inquired about mine.
From my research on this issue, I'd say the history agrees with you. For most lodges, it seems, their "statement on atheism" is the basic "stupid atheist or irreligious Libertine" statement from Anderson's Constitutions of 1723. But even that is still a statement. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, eh?
 
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
72
SC
Visit site
✟21,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hypothetical:
Wayne, A Christian/non mason and a Mason/non Christian apply for a job at your "company", ALL else being equal, and you've narrowed it down to these two, who gets the job?
Gee, you ask this question almost as if you expect that a Mason would HAVE to hire the Mason making the application. No such understanding exists in regards to Masonry, that’s pure myth.

But to answer your question, and believe me, I do so in all sincerity: One cannot help but notice the emphasis with which you chose to state the matter as “ALL” else being equal. If I do not presume too much upon your intent, I take that to mean that as far as the paperwork—job history, recommendations from former employers, job qualifications—the two are evenly matched?

That being the case, then as I see it: (1) there are not enough variables identified here for me to make anything other than a subjective evaluation. You have identified no “company” to fit your hypothetical situation; (2) a lot would depend on being able to do a one-on-one face-to-face interview and evaluation. I would want to pose questions to each of the individuals, and get a feel for their responses, paying particular attention to eye contact and body language.

A lot rides on what the situation is. If I am a personnel manager conducting an interview for someone to take a position as a co-anchor for a TV newscast, I will be looking for something very different personality-wise than I would for a foreman of a construction company. The hypothetical aspect, as I said, leaves too many variables wide open to make a decision.

But if the question is posed to me in my own present reality, with only the situation described being the hypothetical part, then my response is as easy as it gets. As a Christian pastor of a Christian Church, hiring the Christian is a no-brainer.
 
Upvote 0

Ave Maria

Ave Maria Gratia Plena
May 31, 2004
41,138
2,043
43
Diocese of Evansville, IN
✟131,836.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
After reading up on the issue, I am not sure that I can say that Freemasonry is compatible with Christianity. I would have to do further research before I made a definitive decision on whether or not the two are compatible but my preliminary decision is to be cautious about it.
 
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
72
SC
Visit site
✟21,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
After reading up on the issue, I am not sure that I can say that Freemasonry is compatible with Christianity. I would have to do further research before I made a definitive decision on whether or not the two are compatible but my preliminary decision is to be cautious about it.
A wise decision. Take your time, no one can push you but yourself. I went through a caution period of 12 years. My experience while asking questions of Masons during that time was, they would probably be the last ones to push you.
 
Upvote 0

Brennin

Wielder of the Holy Cudgel of Faith
Aug 2, 2005
8,016
376
California
Visit site
✟10,548.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Freemasonry used to be more cultish than it currently is (Freemasons murdered William Morgan in the 19th century for revealing aspects of the cult), but even in its current form I do not think it is compatible with Christianity. Besides which, it is beyond silly for grown men to join a super secret club and wear aprons in order to feel special.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sphinx777
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
72
SC
Visit site
✟21,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Freemasonry used to be more cultish than it currently is (Freemasons murdered William Morgan in the 19th century for revealing aspects of the cult), but even in its current form I do not think it is compatible with Christianity.
You are making assumptions, unless you have incontrovertible proof this took place. The accounts by MASONS at the time, which everyone naturally chooses to ignore, told of a clandestine sneaking away into Canada by Morgan, even perhaps by arrangement that may have even involved Masons. The only thing anybody knows for sure is that nobody knows for sure.

It's not like it had any lasting impact. There were some people who demitted here and there, but Masonry was back and thriving in a couple of decades. What was it Gamaliel advised? Be careful what you do regarding these men, for if it is not of God, it will come to naught. But if it IS found to be of God, then you will find yourselves fighting against God.

Besides which, it is beyond silly for grown men to join a super secret club and wear aprons in order to feel special.
What's even more absurd, is for anyone to be making disparaging remarks about anyone else's apron while ""Wielding the Holy Cudgel of Faith."

:hahaha:
 
Upvote 0

Floatingaxe

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2007
14,757
877
73
Ontario, Canada
✟22,726.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Secret societies and secret handshakes and stripping to one's undies and being held in a coffin, and taking oaths to all gods as part of one's initiation, etc, is all foolish and not of God, not to mention bringing a curse upon oneself and one's household by the joining of oneself to the diabolical.

Masonicsignal.gif


Masonic signal!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JerryL

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2008
584
357
Kentucky
✟69,849.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I do have one observation Wayne. You are a preacher, posting on a Christian forum and 174 out of your last 175 posts are in defense of masonry. Does this give a little insight to where your heart really is?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
72
SC
Visit site
✟21,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Secret societies and secret handshakes and stripping to one's undies and being held in a coffin, and taking oaths to all gods as part of one's initiation, etc, is all foolish and not of God, not to mention bringing a curse upon oneself and one's household by the joining of oneself to the diabolical.

I'll tell you what's diabolical: posting this many untruths in one post without a shred of anything to substantiate any of it, and calling it "Christian."
 
Upvote 0

JerryL

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2008
584
357
Kentucky
✟69,849.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I'll tell you what's diabolical: posting this many untruths in one post without a shred of anything to substantiate any of it, and calling it "Christian."
The first sentence, up to the comma, is 100% true.

Secret societies and secret handshakes and stripping to one's undies and being held in a coffin,
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.