Which creation do creationists want us to believe took place?

[thaumaturgy]

...

 

[AintNoMonkey]

Hey, did you ask for reference on the growth of continent before? If you did, why don't you teach Chalnoth a little bit on that?

I do not need references on continental growth. I have an above-average understanding of how that works.

Are you still in school now? Did you get your BS?

Yes, I am still in school. I will be receiving my BS in a few weeks, providing the uni's administration clears up an internal SNAFU in time. If they do not, there will be heck to pay. Either way, I am continuing classes in the spring, and will be applying for fall admission into several grad programs. Thanks for asking.

 

[BananaSlug]

No. North on the earth is a natural feature. We simplified this feature to call it the geographic north.

I do not know if ancient Israelis used a compass (I guess not at 2000 B.C.). If not, they would not have the idea on what north is. In other words, they do not express the idea of north by the word north as we understand it today.

I mentioned this only to respond to your "small world" comment. If their world is small (local), then would they even describe what the north is? If they did, what would they say?

North is relative. The early people's small world was still quite large to them. You make it seem that the world was only as big as their backyard. The rising/setting of the sun and the "pole" star were very useful for navigation. North, South, East, West, were the names called for these directional points.

The etymology of east is from a Proto-Indo-European language word for dawn, *hausos. Cf. Latin aurora and Greek eōs. Eostre, a Germanic goddess of dawn, might have been a personification of both dawn and the cardinal point.
By convention, an ordinary terrestrial map is oriented so the right side is east. This convention dates from the Renaissance. Many medieval maps were oriented with the Orient (the East) east at the top, which is the source of the verb orient.

The English word "west" is cognate to the Old High German word westar, which may derive from an Indo-European root from which the Latin word vesper, meaning "evening", derives.

In Chinese Buddhism, the West represents movement toward the Buddha or enlightenment (see Journey to the West). The ancient Aztecs believed that the West was the realm of the great goddess of water, mist, and maize. In Ancient Egypt, the West was considered to be the portal to the netherworld, and is the cardinal direction regarded in connection with death, though not always with a negative connotation. Ancient Egyptians also believed that the GoddessAmunet was a personification of the West.[1] The Celts believed that beyond the western sea off the edges of all maps lay the Otherworld, or Afterlife.

<H2>Roles of north as prime direction

The visible rotation of the night sky about the visible celestial pole provides a vivid metaphor of that direction corresponding to up. Thus the choice of the north as corresponding to up in the northern hemisphere, or of south in that role in the southern, is, prior to world-wide communication, anything but an arbitrary one. On the contrary, it is of interest that Chinese culture even considered south as the proper top end for maps.
In Western culture:

• Maps tend to be drawn for viewing with either true north or magnetic north at the top
• Globes of the earth have the North Pole at the top, or if the earth's axis is represented as inclined from vertical (normally by the angle it has relative to the axis of the earth's orbit), in the top half.
• Maps are usually labelled to indicate which direction on the map corresponds to a direction on the earth,
  • usually with a single arrow oriented to the map's representation of true north,
  • occasionally with a single arrow oriented to the map's representation of magnetic north, or two arrows oriented to true and magnetic north respectively,
  • occasionally with a compass rose, but if so, usually on a map with north at the top and usually with north decorated more prominently than any other compass point.
• Up is a metaphor for north. The notion that north should always be up and east at the right was established by the Greek astronomer Ptolemy. The historian Daniel Boorstin suggests that perhaps this was because the better-known places in his world were in the northern hemisphere, and on a flat map these were most convenient for study if they were in the upper right-hand corner.

Roles of east and west as inherently subsidiary directions

While the choice of north over south as prime direction reflects quite arbitrary historical factors, east and west are not nearly as natural alternatives as first glance might suggest. Their folk definitions are, respectively, "where the sun rises" and "where it sets". Except on the Equator, however, these definitions, taken together, would imply that

• east and west would not be 180 degrees apart, but instead would differ from that by up to twice the degrees of latitude of the location in question, and
• they would each move slightly from day to day and, in the temperate zones, markedly over the course of the year.

Reasonably accurate folk astronomy, such as is usually attributed to Stone Age peoples or later Celts, would arrive at east and west by noting the directions of rising and setting (preferably more than once each) and choosing as prime direction one of the two mutually opposite directions that lie halfway between those two. The true folk-astronomical definitions of east and west are "the directions, a right angle from the prime direction, that are closest to the rising and setting, respectively, of the sun (or moon).

</H2>

 

[juvenissun]

I don't know what's worse. You not being willing to provide any explanation for your assertions, or thinking that you actually have. Of course, you started to in a couple of posts. But you never provided a full explanation for any of your assertions.

So I never did. What to disappoint about? As long as you keep saying that I never did, then I will never do.

 

[juvenissun]

North is relative. The early people's small world was still quite large to them. You make it seem that the world was only as big as their backyard. The rising/setting of the sun and the "pole" star were very useful for navigation. North, South, East, West, were the names called for these directional points.

I don't believe you are saying this. North on the earth is NOT relative. Sigh ! You are worse then the cave man.

 

[Chalnoth]

So I never did. What to disappoint about? As long as you keep saying that I never did, then I will never do.

Why does my saying it have anything to do with whether or not you do it? And I'm disappointed because I definitely prefer discussions where people actually explain themselves.

 

[Chalnoth]

I don't believe you are saying this. North on the earth is NOT relative. Sigh ! You are worse then the cave man.

Sure it is! North and South are effectively identical. We could swap the two, reorient our maps, and except for a few changes in the words we use, nothing else would change.

 

[juvenissun]

Do you have any references to back this assertion up? Were they familiar with compasses and "magnetic north?" If not, then no, they were not familiar with "north." In addition, you asked if they were familiar with the concept of "the north pole." This is not the same as "north," or magnetic "north."

I am not an archaeologist of any kind. I do not have any reference. I only have one (in fact, half) Bible verse. I guess you would not be interested in knowing it. But, anyway, keep this question in your mind. May be some Jewish rabbis could give you better references.

 

[Chalnoth]

I am not an archaeologist of any kind. I do not have any reference. I only have one (in fact, half) Bible verse. I guess you would not be interested in knowing it.

Why not? We don't consider the Bible to be evidence of the truth of its claims, but we do consider it to be ample evidence of the knowledge and beliefs of at least some people of the time and place it was written.

 

[marktheblake]

What does this have to do with how long it took to build the ark?

There is two possibilities for the meaning of Gen 6:3
1. The flood will come in 120 years.
2. That mans age will be limited to 120 years

I do not know of any conclusive argument that rules out one of those possibilities, with the exception of one(?) Japanese lady that apparently snuck in an extra year or two in the 20th century. Maybe she ate lots of fish.

What does this have to do with gathering food for the animals on the ark? Your quote shows only that God could have magicked up food for the animals if He wanted to... not that He did so.

There is 3 realistic possibilities for why God commanded Noah to bring food on the ark
1. To eat while on the Ark
2. To eat after disembarking the Ark
3. Both

Even if God placed all the animals into a hibernation on the ark, they still need to eat when they wake up.

 

[juvenissun]

Why not? We don't consider the Bible to be evidence of the truth of its claims, but we do consider it to be ample evidence of the knowledge and beliefs of at least some people of the time and place it was written.

Originally Posted by Chalnoth

I will treat you with respect when you make a post deserving of it. Until you actually engage in a discussion, I have no reason to present you with any respect at all.

After all, your entire method of discussion is horribly dishonest, hypocritical, and vacuous. You are still doing nothing more than presenting bald assertion after bald assertion. You provide no reasoning, no evidence whatsoever. And yet you claim to be "teaching", and you claim that if we "ask nicely" we'll get answers.

You cannot demand respect or decency when you show none yourself.

You take the above words back and apologize. Then I will post that half verse in the Bible. I don't think you will buy this deal.

 

[Chalnoth]

No. I stand by what I said.

 

[thaumaturgy]

You take the above words back and apologize. Then I will post that half verse in the Bible. I don't think you will buy this deal.

Juvenissun likes to make others do things before he will deign to give his information. Everyone has to pay something.

Juvenissun doesn't want to "give" anything away. This is an overarching pattern to his posts.

Here's a couple of classics:

Not a wise hope. Even I do have something, I won't tell you. The reason is obvious.

It is VERY EASY to explain that what you said above does not apply to the situation of a global flood. But I am NOT going to tell you why this time. Why should I educate you if you do not appreciate anything I have said? I have posted many idea along this thread. However, to you, it seemed I have said nothing. If so, why should I continue?

You are confused on who you are in this forum. I am not obligated to explain anything to you. In fact, until you touched the very point, I am not going to explain anything to you. Demand me to give evidence on what I said is an useless effort. When I feel I should give you some, I will. Otherwise, if you don't like what I said, very simple, don't respond.

Alright, you obviously do not consider my answers provided to you as answers. If so, how did the conversation continue? Exactly because of this attitude, I will NOT provide you any of my comment until the question is specific. A good education is a two-way communication after all.

To your benefit, if you do not understand, then humble yourself and start to ask some basic questions. One of the purpose for me to hang around here is to educate.

It sounds like you do not believe what I said. You are not paying me tuition and I could not teach you here as in a classroom. I tell you what I know. You do not take it, then that is it.

Otherwise, ask one answerable question with a decent attitude, so the conversation could be continued.

Now, remember, this man is apparently a "teacher" of some sort.

So remember, in Juvenissun's class you have to give him his required "tuition" before you will get his information. (One assumes).

 

[BananaSlug]

Sure it is! North and South are effectively identical. We could swap the two, reorient our maps, and except for a few changes in the words we use, nothing else would change.

Thank you!

Aren't we overdue for another pole reversal?

 

[Chalnoth]

Thank you!

Aren't we overdue for another pole reversal?

I don't think we're overdue, but from what I understand it appears one may be starting. If so, the full reversal would occur in a few thousand years or something like that.

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't think we're overdue, but from what I understand it appears one may be starting. If so, the full reversal would occur in a few thousand years or something like that.

According to the Bible, the last one took place in AD58.

 

[BananaSlug]

According to the Bible, the last one took place in AD58.

Isaiah 24:1 Behold, the Lord makes the earth empty, and makes it waste, and
turns it upside down.

^Are you refering to this verse? Here's the rest...

1BEHOLD, THE Lord will make the land and the [a]earth empty and make it waste and turn it upside down (twist the face of it) and scatter abroad its inhabitants.

2And it shall be--as [what happens] with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the creditor, so with the debtor.
3The land and the earth shall be utterly laid waste and utterly pillaged; for the Lord has said this.
4The land and the earth mourn and wither, the world languishes and withers, the high ones of the people [and the heavens with the earth] languish.
5The land and the earth also are defiled by their inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, disregarded the statutes, and broken the everlasting covenant.(A)
6Therefore a curse devours the land and the earth, and they who dwell in it suffer the punishment of their guilt. Therefore the inhabitants of the land and the earth are scorched and parched [under the curse of God's wrath], and few people are left.(B)
7The new wine mourns, the vine languishes; all the merrymakers sigh.
8The mirth of the timbrels is stilled, the noise of those who rejoice ends, the joy of the lyre is stopped.
9No more will they drink wine with a song; strong drink will be bitter to those who drink it.
10The wasted city of emptiness and confusion is broken down; every house is shut up so that no one may enter.
11There is crying in the streets for wine; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is banished and gone into captivity.
12In the city is left desolation, and its gate is battered and destroyed.
13For so shall it be in the midst of the earth among the peoples, as the shaking and beating of an olive tree, or as the gleaning when the vintage is done [and only a small amount of the fruit remains].
14[But] these [who have escaped and remain] lift up their voices, they shout; for the majesty of the Lord they cry aloud from the [Mediterranean] Sea.
15Wherefore glorify the Lord in the east [whether in the region of daybreak's lights and fires, or in the west]; [glorify] the name of the Lord, the God of Israel in the isles and coasts of the [Mediterranean] Sea.
16From the uttermost parts of the earth have we heard songs: Glory to the Righteous One [and to the people of Israel]! But I say, Emaciated I pine away, I pine away. Woe is me! The treacherous dealers deal treacherously! Yes, the treacherous dealers deal very treacherously.
17Terror and pit [of destruction] and snare are upon you, O inhabitant of the earth!
18And he who flees at the noise of the terror will fall into the pit; and he who comes up out of the pit will be caught in the snare. For the windows of the heavens are opened [as in the deluge], and the foundations of the earth tremble and shake.
19The earth is utterly broken, the earth is rent asunder, the earth is shaken violently. 20The earth shall stagger like a drunken man and shall sway to and fro like a hammock; its transgression shall lie heavily upon it, and it shall fall and not rise again.

It seems that "turning the earth upside down" is refering to a earthquake, rather than a pole shift. This is an old testament verse, where is it in the NT?

 

[Chalnoth]

According to the Bible, the last one took place in AD58.

Well, that's just incorrect. The last reversal was 780,000 years ago. Though it looks like one may be coming in the 1,000-2,000 year time frame.

 

[AV1611VET]

According to the Bible, the last one took place in AD58.

It seems that "turning the earth upside down" is refering to a earthquake, rather than a pole shift. This is an old testament verse, where is it in the NT?

Well, that's just incorrect. The last reversal was 780,000 years ago. Though it looks like one may be coming in the 1,000-2,000 year time frame.

Not hardly, Chalnoth --- try 1,950 years ago. In fact, the Christians were blamed for it, and Nero persecuted them [literally] to death --- not for Rome burning as some say --- but for the pole reversal - (which they wouldn't have understood at the time).

And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;

 

[Chalnoth]

Not hardly, Chalnoth --- try 1,950 years ago. In fact, the Christians were blamed for it, and Nero persecuted them [literally] to death --- not for Rome burning as some say --- but for the pole reversal - (which they wouldn't have understood at the time).

It's hilarious that you think that's actually the case.

And, by the way, a magnetic pole reversal is hardly turning the world upside-down. The rotation of the Earth is almost completely unaffected by the pole reversal, and we still would see the same stars in the North after one occurs.