Abortion is Murder.

[Clay Good]

First of all, We shouldn't even be debating this. It is Murder, PERIOD. We need not have further discussion. The sperm unites with the egg, this is the beginning of life and abortion takes life which = Murder. Why is it if someone were to kill a Pregnant Women they would be charged with two murders but, Doctors can ABORT living beings. It is sick, but we shouldn't be surprised I mean we think Evolution is true. Evolution shows the human being as nothing important and without worth. We just evolved. Our Nation needs prayer lots of it but mainly it needs Souled Out Believers for Christ. We are Ambassadors For Christ We need to start acting like Christ would act, not just talking but doing as well. God Bless You.

 

[Trashionista]

First of all, We shouldn't even be debating this. It is Murder, PERIOD.

Opinion is not fact. Not everyone agrees, therefore, given the lack of a universal consensus, one cannot declare abortion to be murder. Abortion can be interpreted as murder; but it cannot be proven as so.

We need not have further discussion.

It's sad some of the more militant pro-life groups don't also abide by this. It'd be nice if they stopped trying to erode away at women's reproductive rights.

So, all sides really are in the wrong - depending on who one look's at.

The sperm unites with the egg, this is the beginning of life

Again. Interpretation doesn't equal fact.

and abortion takes life which = Murder.

Not quite so cut and dry.

Why is it if someone were to kill a Pregnant Women they would be charged with two murders but

Abortion requires informed consent of the mother. No citizen consents to be murdered.

Doctors can ABORT living beings.

They can choose whether they perform abortions or not.

It is sick

Then don't become a OB/GYN who performs abortion. Simple.

but we shouldn't be surprised I mean we think Evolution is true.

There's a quite a bit of evidence to support evolution.

Evolution shows the human being as nothing important and without worth. We just evolved.

Wrong.

Our Nation needs prayer lots of it but mainly it needs Souled Out Believers for Christ.

Every nation needs prayer. Though perhaps competent voters and competent leaders moreso, but I diegress.

We are Ambassadors For Christ We need to start acting like Christ would act, not just talking but doing as well. God Bless You.

That's nice.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Throughout the history of jurisprudence abortion has never been considered "murder" and even in the brief time it was criminalized it was always considered a much lesser crime. Moreover, the Bible specifically says it is not, in Exodus 21:22 in which it is clearly identified as a lesser offense. The assertion "abortion is murder" is merely excessive rhetoric much like "the Jonas Brothers are the most beautiful young men who ever lived."

 

[Ave Maria]

Throughout the history of jurisprudence abortion has never been considered "murder" and even in the brief time it was criminalized it was always considered a much lesser crime. Moreover, the Bible specifically says it is not, in Exodus 21:22 in which it is clearly identified as a lesser offense. The assertion "abortion is murder" is merely excessive rhetoric much like "the Jonas Brothers are the most beautiful young men who ever lived."

Exactly! Abortion is not murder. Period. End of story.

 

[Hentenza]

Throughout the history of jurisprudence abortion has never been considered "murder" and even in the brief time it was criminalized it was always considered a much lesser crime. Moreover, the Bible specifically says it is not, in Exodus 21:22 in which it is clearly identified as a lesser offense. The assertion "abortion is murder" is merely excessive rhetoric much like "the Jonas Brothers are the most beautiful young men who ever lived."

Exodus 21:22 does not describe abortion but merely the unfortunate miscarriage of a baby resulting from an assault on a woman. These verses do not say that it is ok for a doctor to kill a baby when the woman has not suffered injury by a third party. Heck, the intentional killing of a baby is not alluded to in these verses at all. Lets read the verse in context.

Exodus 21:22-25
22"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide.
23"But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,
24eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.



The "lesser" offense relates to the woman not being injured, however, if the woman is injured then a stronger penalty is called for. These verses in no way condone the horrible practice of killing a baby.


Furthermore, killing a baby in the womb flies in the face of God's creation. God creates us and knows us in the womb. Those that condone abortion are destroying that which God has created.



Jeremiah 1:4-5
4Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,
5"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,


Psalm 139:12-16
13For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother's womb.
14I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.
15My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
16Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.





So, is abortion murder? It is in the eyes of the Lord.

 

[Ave Maria]

Exodus 21:22 does not describe abortion but merely the unfortunate miscarriage of a baby resulting from an assault on a woman. These verses do not say that it is ok for a doctor to kill a baby when the woman has not suffered injury by a third party. Heck, the intentional killing of a baby is not alluded to in these verses at all. Lets read the verse in context.

Exodus 21:22-25
22"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide.
23"But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,
24eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.



The "lesser" offense relates to the woman not being injured, however, if the woman is injured then a stronger penalty is called for. These verses in no way condone the horrible practice of killing a baby.


Furthermore, killing a baby in the womb flies in the face of God's creation. God creates us and knows us in the womb. Those that condone abortion are destroying that which God has created.



Jeremiah 1:4-5
4Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,
5"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,


Psalm 139:12-16
13For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother's womb.
14I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.
15My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
16Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.





So, is abortion murder? It is in the eyes of the Lord.

I strongly disagree. Please read the following articles:

http://www.rcrc.org/pdf/RCRC_EdSeries_Personhood.pdf

http://www.rcrc.org/pdf/RCRC_EdSeries_Fetus.pdf

Besides that, even if abortion were murder in the eyes of God, that is still not a sufficient reason to ban abortion. Why? We live in a nation that has separation of Church and State. Religious based laws cannot and should not be made or enforced.

 

[Hentenza]

I strongly disagree. Please read the following articles:

http://www.rcrc.org/pdf/RCRC_EdSeries_Personhood.pdf

http://www.rcrc.org/pdf/RCRC_EdSeries_Fetus.pdf

Besides that, even if abortion were murder in the eyes of God, that is still not a sufficient reason to ban abortion. Why? We live in a nation that has separation of Church and State. Religious based laws cannot and should not be made or enforced.

You can disagree. It matter none to me since that is between you and God.

Let me ask you a question, can you can separate your love for the Lord, your Christianity from your human worldly existence? You do understand that most abortions are for convenience and selfishness, don't you?

 

[Texas Lynn]

Exodus 21:22 does not describe abortion but merely the unfortunate miscarriage of a baby resulting from an assault on a woman. These verses do not say that it is ok for a doctor to kill a baby when the woman has not suffered injury by a third party. Heck, the intentional killing of a baby is not alluded to in these verses at all. Lets read the verse in context.

Exodus 21:22-25
22"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide.
23"But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,
24eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.



The "lesser" offense relates to the woman not being injured, however, if the woman is injured then a stronger penalty is called for. These verses in no way condone the horrible practice of killing a baby.


Furthermore, killing a baby in the womb flies in the face of God's creation. God creates us and knows us in the womb. Those that condone abortion are destroying that which God has created.



Jeremiah 1:4-5
4Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,
5"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,


Psalm 139:12-16
13For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother's womb.
14I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.
15My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
16Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.





So, is abortion murder? It is in the eyes of the Lord.

Citing a litany of verses out of context to reach that conclusion is a logical error of post hoc ergo propter hoc ("it does not follow"). No mortal is competent to state with any certainty at all what exists "in the eyes of the Lord".

 

[Hentenza]

Citing a litany of verses out of context to reach that conclusion is a logical error of post hoc ergo propter hoc ("it does not follow"). No mortal is competent to state with any certainty at all what exists "in the eyes of the Lord".

LOL!!!! The verses that I quoted are very much in context. Does not God create a baby or do you think that is a purely biological function apart from God? Does God not know us in the womb? Does God not wove me in my mother's womb?

 

[Ave Maria]

You can disagree. It matter none to me since that is between you and God.

Let me ask you a question, can you can separate your love for the Lord, your Christianity from your human worldly existence? You do understand that most abortions are for convenience and selfishness, don't you?

Of course I can celebrate my love for the Lord and my Christianity from my worldly human existence. I find no problem in doing that. And in doing so, I still see no conflict between abortion and my Lord and my Christianity.

As for abortions being for convenience and selfishness, I beg to differ. And besides that, even if abortion is selfish, so what? I now quote from another site:

Abortion is selfish.

Even if it is, so what? All actions can be construed as selfish, upon closer examination. Eating is selfish. Some animal or plant had to be killed to provide that food. And there's probably starving people somewhere who need that food more than you do. Dating/marrying is selfish. Your partner could do better than you. Having children is just about the most selfish thing we humans can do. Think about the main reasons why people have them--to carry on the family name, to perpetuate one's genes, to hang onto the other partner, because I want someone who will love me unconditionally. When you really think about it, RTLers are the most selfish people one could possibly meet! What's more selfish, saying, "I will make my own reproductive decisions, and respect your right to do the same for yourself," or thinking your morality needs to be the law of the land, and that you should be able to make other people's decisions for them, when you are not the one who will suffer any of the negative consequences of those decisions.


Plus many women were pushed into facing the abortion decision due to the selfishness of others. The boyfriend who fled after she turned up pregnant. His new girlfriend or wife who wants him to "prove his love" for her by cutting off contact with his ex, even if she's currently pregnant by him or raising children he fathered. Why should the pregnant woman have to do the "unselfish" thing when no one else has to? If she doesn't look out for what's best for her, who will?

Also, is abortion so selfish when it is the mother choosing to abort the child who has a severe deformity or something and does not want that poor child to have to go through life with such a severe deformity or disability? Is it so selfish when the mother has an abortion because the pregnancy is affecting her health or endangering her life? I don't hardly think so.

 

[Texas Lynn]

LOL!!!! The verses that I quoted are very much in context. Does not God create a baby or do you think that is a purely biological function apart from God? Does God not know us in the womb? Does God not wove me in my mother's womb?

That's poetry. When Robert Burns wrote "My luve's like a red, red rose" he did not mean she had crimson petals and thorns either.

 

[Hentenza]

That's poetry. When Robert Burns wrote "My luve's like a red, red rose" he did not mean she had crimson petals and thorns either.

Robert Burns did not give us the Word of God so his words are irrelevant. Do you consider the verses that I quoted simply "poetry"? Are the words untrue?

 

[Hentenza]

Of course I can celebrate my love for the Lord and my Christianity from my worldly human existence. I find no problem in doing that. And in doing so, I still see no conflict between abortion and my Lord and my Christianity.

As for abortions being for convenience and selfishness, I beg to differ. And besides that, even if abortion is selfish, so what? I now quote from another site:



Also, is abortion so selfish when it is the mother choosing to abort the child who has a severe deformity or something and does not want that poor child to have to go through life with such a severe deformity or disability? Is it so selfish when the mother has an abortion because the pregnancy is affecting her health or endangering her life? I don't hardly think so.

Tell me, what percentage of abortions are carried out for deformity or a child with similar problems? What percentage of abortions are carried out because it endangers the mother's life?

 

[Ave Maria]

Tell me, what percentage of abortions are carried out for deformity or a child with similar problems? What percentage of abortions are carried out because it endangers the mother's life?

I have no idea. I don't know the statistics. I'm sure you could find them if you Googled them though. That said, what you have just asked is irrelevant to what I asked and you did not answer my questions either.

 

[Hentenza]

I have no idea. I don't know the statistics. I'm sure you could find them if you Googled them though. That said, what you have just asked is irrelevant to what I asked and you did not answer my questions either.

Here is what you asked:

Also, is abortion so selfish when it is the mother choosing to abort the child who has a severe deformity or something and does not want that poor child to have to go through life with such a severe deformity or disability? Is it so selfish when the mother has an abortion because the pregnancy is affecting her health or endangering her life? I don't hardly think so.

I responded with questions about the statistics because when you look them up you will realize that the percentage of abortions relating to woman life endangerment and child deformity is very small. What remains is mainly selfish abortions which are nothing more that killings of convenience. So, yes, it is very relevant.

 

[Ave Maria]

Here is what you asked:



I responded with questions about the statistics because when you look them up you will realize that the percentage of abortions relating to woman life endangerment and child deformity is very small. What remains is mainly selfish abortions which are nothing more that killings of convenience. So, yes, it is very relevant.

Well frankly, I disagree that a woman getting an abortion because she is not ready for a pregnancy is selfish.

 

[Hentenza]

Well frankly, I disagree that a woman getting an abortion because she is not ready for a pregnancy is selfish.

So is not convenient so lets just kill the baby? What is the baby guilty off?

 

[Texas Lynn]

Robert Burns did not give us the Word of God so his words are irrelevant.

Not at all. Both are classic sources chock-full of metaphor. All you have quoted are metaphors.

Do you consider the verses that I quoted simply "poetry"?

Poetry is never "simply".

Are the words untrue?

They most definitely are not factual. And, they say absolutely zero about abortion and provide zero support for the antiabortion argument.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Tell me, what percentage of abortions are carried out for deformity or a child with similar problems? What percentage of abortions are carried out because it endangers the mother's life?

Accurate information as to 'reasons" for abortions are difficult to ascertain; but it is certainly not in any sense at all the business of anyone other than the woman involved. Whatever the reasons a woman obtains an abortion, it is irrelevant as to the debate over its legality.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Well frankly, I disagree that a woman getting an abortion because she is not ready for a pregnancy is selfish.

Very astute. It is a very responsible position for the woman to take.