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Obedient Christians

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Tinker Grey

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I was listening to my pastor preach through Nehemiah. This particular Sunday, he was emphasizing the importance of scripture, noting how when the law was read the people immediately implemented its commands.

He followed this by saying something on the order of "every time I read the scripture and obey it ... blah blah." (I ended it with "blah" since I neither remember what he said nor is it of import here.)

The question I have is what is that Christians do that allows them to say "I am obedient to God's word."

I'll grant there is a command to baptism, Eucharist, witnessing, etc. I'll also grant that Messianics and at least old style Seventh Day Adventists may obey the OT and carry out the commands to some degree.

But what is it that Christians do on a day-to-day basis that constitutes obedience?

Is there anything besides religious behavior (prayer, witnessing, Eucharist, etc.)?
 
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Chesterton

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On a daily basis, I think obeying God is done by complying with Jesus’ words “love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength” and “love thy neighbor as thyself”. Doing these things constitutes obedience.

And obeying God will usually mean obeying your conscience. On a personal note, there’s something going on in my life right now, which I have to make an “either/or” choice about. There’s one thing I would rather do, but the other thing is the one I know God would have me do. I need to obey God by doing the second thing, even though I’d rather not.

And I guess there’s another kind of obedience, not necessarily moral in nature, which is particular to certain persons at certain times - such as when God calls a person to be a missionary, or any other specific thing.
 
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Tinker Grey

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As has been noted elsewhere, the admmonition to "love thy neighbor" is not unique to Christianity.

Is there anything distinctive in Christian behavior that differs from that of a non-Christian?

Is there anything about this thing that you know you need to do that suggests that a competent non-Christian counselor might not suggest? Well, perhaps we ought to skip that since some people distrust counselors, psychologists, etc. out-of-hand. Do you think it is possible or probable that a non-Christian wouldn't do what you know you need to do? (I'm assuming that this action is not akin to selling all your goods and becoming a missionary.) Let me ask a generality, is this action a question of morality (that is, doing some moral thing as opposed to some immoral thing) or is it rather obeying what you perceive to be a direction from God?

Thanks for responding.
 
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hsmommyofmany

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for me it is not about ME. christianity is about Christ. i have a relationship with him. just like i would have a relationship with anyone else.

yes alot of religions have similar doctrine-love, peace, marriage, etc. this is not what makes christianity unique. what makes it unique is Jesus...not just that he existed but that he lives in our hearts. being obedient means giving up your life to live a life for Christ, listening to the holy spirit and living a life that would make him proud and do the things that will advance his kingdom, pointing others to him. my desire is to be Christ-like, to be more like him everyday. in order to do this it does require reading his word adn lots of prayer.

by the way, the verse about love thy neighbor...forgets the other part. before mention of the neighbor he says...love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. this is true obedience to Christ.

thanks for asking a great question.

just out of curiosity...i have to ask...if you are an athiest, why to you go to church? perhaps you are not an athiest after all :D are you just not sure?
 
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Tinker Grey

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for me it is not about ME. christianity is about Christ. i have a relationship with him. just like i would have a relationship with anyone else.
That's nice, but off topic.

yes alot of religions have similar doctrine-love, peace, marriage, etc. this is not what makes christianity unique. what makes it unique is Jesus...not just that he existed but that he lives in our hearts. being obedient means giving up your life to live a life for Christ, listening to the holy spirit and living a life that would make him proud and do the things that will advance his kingdom, pointing others to him. my desire is to be Christ-like, to be more like him everyday. in order to do this it does require reading his word adn lots of prayer.
In many ways, this question is practical. What is it that Christians do that is unique aside from certain religious practices that is identifiably Christian? Are there behavior patterns that are uniquely Christian? What practical things does the Bible require of Christians (in terms of behavior) that identify them uniquely as Christians? Obviously, keeping the sabbath and the feast of the tabernacles, etc. are no these behaviors. As best I recall, the NT requires of Christians to behave in a generically ethical behavior and to observe baptism and communion. This generically ethical behavior, as best I can tell, is not in any way distinct from the behavior of humanity, say within 1 standard deviation of the mean. What about Christian behavior patterns is distinctly Christian?

Claiming that you have a relationship with Jesus is unique in the sense that no other religion asks or requires you to have a relationship with Jesus. (I imagine a muslim might suggest that she has a relationship with Allah and that a hindu has a relationship with Vishnu.) But what are the practical outworkings of such a claim?

I guess as I right this, I realize there are two parts to my original question: Is there anything that the Bible requires of Christians (other than religious duty) that is distinctly Christian? and 2) Is there anything dinstinctly Christian about Christian behavior?

by the way, the verse about love thy neighbor...forgets the other part. before mention of the neighbor he says...love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. this is true obedience to Christ.
Right. But what about this answers the question?

thanks for asking a great question.
Quite welcome.

just out of curiosity...i have to ask...if you are an athiest, why to you go to church? perhaps you are not an athiest after all :D are you just not sure?

I am an atheist. I was a Christian all my life until this year. This entails being reared as a Christian. It entails having a born again experience. It entails having been a Sunday school teacher, treasurer, usher, special music, short term missionary and an elder.

I go to church because that is where my friends are. As I said, I was a Christian until this year. All the friends that I've acquired since living in this location are from church.

You might well then ask, where does this question come from. The answer is from the observation that Christianity makes little practical difference in peoples lives apart from religious observance.
 
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Chesterton

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Is there anything distinctive in Christian behavior that differs from that of a non-Christian?

I hate it when people answer with “yes and no”, but I think one has to here.

I hope you know what I’m trying to say, Tinker, because of your formerly being a Christian, and because I’ve seen you write things that make me think you probably know more than I do.

You know the Christian life should be an attitude (in a literal sense of the word) or like an alignment, where if your life is aligned toward God on a daily basis, the “behavior” sort of takes care of itself. And you’re familiar with the Christian idea of “dying to self” or “dying to the world”? Something like that idea is found in Buddhism. There’s a similarity, but they’re not the same thing. In Buddhism there is the idea of denying wants and desires, but the reason is different, and the goal is different.

I guess you could write a whole book trying to explain the differences fully (or even just to explain “dying to the world”), but maybe the above is one example where you can see how the behavior is not totally distinctive, but the underlying idea is.

Do you think it is possible or probable that a non-Christian wouldn't do what you know you need to do?

Ah, now here's a question I can answer with authority, because two years ago I was a non-Christian, and if this were two years ago I almost certainly would not do what I need to do. (Okay, well limited authority, I can only speak for me.) :)

Let me ask a generality, is this action a question of morality (that is, doing some moral thing as opposed to some immoral thing) or is it rather obeying what you perceive to be a direction from God?

It’s just a question of morality. I didn’t perceive a specific direction, it just falls under that big general direction to “do the right thing”.
 
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Emmy

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Dear Tinker Grey. You had some good replies, may I elucidate? with love and humity. Jesus, our Saviour, left us with 2 Commandments, they contain all 10 Commandments which God gave us. 1) Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. ( He created us in His image, and He loves us.) 2) love our neighbour, ( all others ) as we love ourselves. Everybody, no matter what colour, creed, or background, is our neighbour, and we try to treat them as we would like to be treated by them. This is not easy, and some Christians find it harder than others, but we have Jesus to help and guide us, in fact He is our Way, and we follow Him. Jesus died for all, you included, Tinker Grey, and God will accept all who want to come. Our part is to Repent, to exchange our selfish and wilful characters into loving God, and loving and treating our brothers, as we would like to be treated by them. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.
 
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Tinker Grey

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I hope you know what I’m trying to say, Tinker, because of your formerly being a Christian, and because I’ve seen you write things that make me think you probably know more than I do.
Thank you for your kind words. I don't know if they're true, but I appreciate them nonetheless.

You know the Christian life should be an attitude (in a literal sense of the word) or like an alignment, where if your life is aligned toward God on a daily basis, the “behavior” sort of takes care of itself. And you’re familiar with the Christian idea of “dying to self” or “dying to the world”? Something like that idea is found in Buddhism. There’s a similarity, but they’re not the same thing. In Buddhism there is the idea of denying wants and desires, but the reason is different, and the goal is different.

I guess you could write a whole book trying to explain the differences fully (or even just to explain “dying to the world”), but maybe the above is one example where you can see how the behavior is not totally distinctive, but the underlying idea is.
I know what you are saying I think.

Does that you mean you agree that there is little or no practical difference between the behavior of a Buddhist and that of a Christian? That the primary difference between a Buddhist and a Christian is not behavior but an underlying philosophy? (Aside, of course, from those actions that are purely religious like baptism.)

Ah, now here's a question I can answer with authority, because two years ago I was a non-Christian, and if this were two years ago I almost certainly would not do what I need to do. (Okay, well limited authority, I can only speak for me.) :)

It’s just a question of morality. I didn’t perceive a specific direction, it just falls under that big general direction to “do the right thing”.
So if I understand you correctly, there is a difference between you as a non-Christian and you as a Christian? (I appreciate your candor. In matters of morals, we might all admit to occasionally preferring the immoral but few would agree that they actually would do those actions under certain circumstances.) And again, as you admit by "limited authority", you are not saying that non-Christians would inevitably select the immoral ... just that at a different point in your life, you would have chosen the immoral--and indeed are somewhat tempted by it now.

Is it possible you would agree with the idea that there is little or no difference in the required behavior Christian and that of a non-Christian?

(NOTE: I don't think I was clear in the OP. Largely because I'm just now recalling the distinction that I'd been thinking about. I'm interested in active behavior--things that one does because one is a Christian apart from religious actions; NOT things that one does not do.)

In short, a convert to Christianity might limit herself from things she formerly found acceptable, but wouldn't necessarily find herself engaged in (non-religious) activities that she formerly would never have considered. I'm speaking in generalities. Of course, some individual somewhere might never have considered hammering nails for Habitat, but we know that many non-Christians do exactly that.

Make sense?
 
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Tinker Grey

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Dear Tinker Grey. You had some good replies, may I elucidate? with love and humity. Jesus, our Saviour, left us with 2 Commandments, they contain all 10 Commandments which God gave us. 1) Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. ( He created us in His image, and He loves us.) 2) love our neighbour, ( all others ) as we love ourselves. Everybody, no matter what colour, creed, or background, is our neighbour, and we try to treat them as we would like to be treated by them. This is not easy, and some Christians find it harder than others, but we have Jesus to help and guide us, in fact He is our Way, and we follow Him. Jesus died for all, you included, Tinker Grey, and God will accept all who want to come. Our part is to Repent, to exchange our selfish and wilful characters into loving God, and loving and treating our brothers, as we would like to be treated by them. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

Thank you for your effort in posting. So what you are saying is that there is no distinction in the proactive behavior of a Christian and a non-Christian.
 
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GreenMunchkin

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This is a good question. Am always worried about seeming egocentric with questions like this, though, because it's very "me focused" and hsmommyofmany is bang on in that this really isn't about us. Just a pre-emptive apology, really, for all the impending "I this" and "I that"s.

I'm a bi-sexual single woman, and a Christian of 2 and a half years, and I obey God every single day in not acting on homosexual thoughts or feelings. It's entirely His strength and grace, but I choose to lean on that strength and to accept that grace. I was never ever promiscuous, but where I could so easily hook up with an ex of either gender for one night or one weekend, I now choose to trust the Lord, and to trust His word.

It's only in doing so that I've discovered how unhealthy a relationship with sex many of us have - primarily women, perhaps - and it's only getting distance from it that's given me a real sense of peace and joy. Before Christ: feeling lonely, or miserable? Have sex with my girlfriend or boyfriend and let them temporarily chase the shadows away. With Christ, though, feelings of loneliness are given to Him, and He stills the soul as opposed to making you feel sated in the short run.

That's a monumental change, and not one I can explain any better than I've done so, appallingly.

Obeying God is being kind to someone who is cruel to me and truly, truly forgiving them and acknowledging am no better; obeying Him is giving even when I feel like I don't really have any to spare. Please understand, this isn't me saying am an awesome person - am a sucky excuse for a Christian, and am barely mediocre as a person, but God asks me to do these things, because He's extraordinary, so I do.

And it's only afterwards that I see how right He really was. I'll give an example. Have mentioned here before actually, the way people react if you give them money in line when they don't have enough. But the process leading up to it is interesting. God whsipers that you should give them the money they need - whether it's one pound, or whether they've left their wallet at home and need every penny - and your cheeks start to burn because it's not easy! If you only have enough on you for your own shopping, it's hard in that respect, but knowing you'll create suspicion isn't easy, either. It's actually embarrassing. What if they look at me funny? What if they say no thanks?

But God has asked you to do it, so you do, and there is often suspicion at first, but once they understand you really, really mean it and no, there's no catch, the relief and the surprise is amazing, and you realise you didn't need everything in your own basket, anyway. I've never said "God told me to give you this!" but I will say, "I'm a Christian, and this is the right thing to do..."

Their happiness, and the chance to witness for Him in such a normal, non-threatening situation is such a blessing, and makes me wonder why I was ever resistant. Who cares if they look at me funny!

I'm not for a second saying only Christians will give something to someone in need; most of my closest friends are atheists, and they're some of the most loving, best people I know... but I think only someone who has been prompted by God will give *everything* they have, because we know He will restore it, and we've done it because we know He loves the person we're giving it to.

Obeying Him by praying and fasting is all well and good - and as Christians, we should be doing both - but doing so out of obligation speaks to religiosity, as opposed to doing it because we know He loves us, and we want to do as He asks, because we love Him back.

I think, ultimately, what it comes down to is it's pointless obeying God "religiously" - we aren't saved by works. But by obeying Him in love, we ARE His hands here, because He asks us to love others, just as He did. Perhaps that's the difference between follwoing Him, and not.

Am sorry for typing such a long answer :hug:


 
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Tinker Grey

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This is a good question. Am always worried about seeming egocentric with questions like this, though, because it's very "me focused" and hsmommyofmany is bang on in that this really isn't about us. Just a pre-emptive apology, really, for all the impending "I this" and "I that"s.
No worries.

I'm a bi-sexual single woman, and a Christian of 2 and a half years, and I obey God every single day in not acting on homosexual thoughts or feelings. It's entirely His strength and grace, but I choose to lean on that strength and to accept that grace. I was never ever promiscuous, but where I could so easily hook up with an ex of either gender for one night or one weekend, I now choose to trust the Lord, and to trust His word.
As I clarified above, the OP is about positive actions; not about that from which we refrain. Of course as long as your post is, you were probably writing this as I was making that clarification.

It's only in doing so that I've discovered how unhealthy a relationship with sex many of us have - primarily women, perhaps - and it's only getting distance from it that's given me a real sense of peace and joy. Before Christ: feeling lonely, or miserable? Have sex with my girlfriend or boyfriend and let them temporarily chase the shadows away. With Christ, though, feelings of loneliness are given to Him, and He stills the soul as opposed to making you feel sated in the short run.
Even though this thread is about things we do rather than about things we don't do, let me attempt to address this (and the last paragraph) briefly.

I would rather expect that any sort of conversion would have effects similar to what you describe. Those who are serially convert from one religion to another only stop (if they stop) when the new religion helps them address problem areas in their lives. Or if they are less introspective, they stop when the religion gives them what they want.

I'm glad you found what you need. However, I don't think your experience is different from, say, a disillusioned Christian who converts to Buddhism.

That's a monumental change, and not one I can explain any better than I've done so, appallingly.
You are doing fine.

Obeying God is being kind to someone who is cruel to me and truly, truly forgiving them and acknowledging am no better; obeying Him is giving even when I feel like I don't really have any to spare. Please understand, this isn't me saying am an awesome person - am a sucky excuse for a Christian, and am barely mediocre as a person, but God asks me to do these things, because He's extraordinary, so I do.
Again, the principles here are not distinctly Christian. I'm glad framing it as Christian works for you. However, atheists and Buddhists and Confucians and Hindus and Muslims and Taoists and Jews all know that letting go and forgiving is the healthier way to go.

And it's only afterwards that I see how right He really was. I'll give an example. Have mentioned here before actually, the way people react if you give them money in line when they don't have enough. But the process leading up to it is interesting. God whsipers that you should give them the money they need - whether it's one pound, or whether they've left their wallet at home and need every penny - and your cheeks start to burn because it's not easy! If you only have enough on you for your own shopping, it's hard in that respect, but knowing you'll create suspicion isn't easy, either. It's actually embarrassing. What if they look at me funny? What if they say no thanks?
Great story. I can identify with it to some degree. My life has been relatively easy in latter years and some of the people I am friends with have hard lives. I find it relatively easy to give them what they need. I.e., with experience, you don't get so flustered about it.

WRT the OP though, charity is not uniquely Christian.

I'm not for a second saying only Christians will give something to someone in need; most of my closest friends are atheists, and they're some of the most loving, best people I know...
Rather the point of my thread ...

but I think only someone who has been prompted by God will give *everything* they have, because we know He will restore it, and we've done it because we know He loves the person we're giving it to.
I've never know a single Christian anywhere to sell their clothes, cars, and house (or even a fraction of the above) and give it all away. We've legends of Siddhartha Buddha and St. Francis et al. I've seen people give when they have little; but, I've never seen anyone give away *everything*. Perhaps, you mean only "giving until it hurts"? In which case, again this is not uniquely Christian. We need only point to ascetics of any given faith tradition (particularly those where the swami doesn't get the novitiate's stuff).

Obeying Him by praying and fasting is all well and good - and as Christians, we should be doing both - but doing so out of obligation speaks to religiosity, as opposed to doing it because we know He loves us, and we want to do as He asks, because we love Him back.

I think, ultimately, what it comes down to is it's pointless obeying God "religiously" - we aren't saved by works. But by obeying Him in love, we ARE His hands here, because He asks us to love others, just as He did. Perhaps that's the difference between follwoing Him, and not.

Am sorry for typing such a long answer :hug:
Again, I'm not particularly interested in religious activity or the motivations for doing so. But, I will say that those who've converted to other religions would claim similar sorts of noble reasons for their religious devotion.

I'm happy that Christianity works for you.
 
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GreenMunchkin

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I won't quote you, but I'd like to ask: if your point is that not only Christians are "good people", may I ask why you don't just ask outright? Or are you hoping we'll "work it out for ourselves"? Because, I don't believe anyone has said, inferred or implied that only Christians are generous, or kind... so am a little confused about the way you've laid out the question.

I have to say, though, I disagree with you in terms of never seeing Christians give up *everything* they have in order to help others. Look up Jackie Pullinger, or David Wilkerson, or Demos Shakarian.

But even without those examples, the ones I've given you are the just the experiences of a Christian, and another faith teaching something similar in no way negates Christ's exortations, or the Christian faith, which is what you seem to want to do. If someone feels Buddhism, for example, is the faith they want to follow, they have that right. But you appear to be trying to undermine the Christian faith, and no amount of intellectualizing or ethical debate will do so. Its tenets may be comparable, so its theology can be debated and compared and dissected, but Christianity is about Christ, and that's not something that be altered, regardless of how much some wish it could be.

And, thank you :hug: I really am so sorry it didn't make you happy.
 
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Chesterton

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Does that you mean you agree that there is little or no practical difference between the behavior of a Buddhist and that of a Christian? That the primary difference between a Buddhist and a Christian is not behavior but an underlying philosophy? (Aside, of course, from those actions that are purely religious like baptism.)

I don’t know enough about Buddhism to answer, except I can think of extreme examples. Do you ever recall hearing of some Buddhist monks in Vietnam who protested their government’s actions by setting themselves on fire? Christians see suicide as morally wrong, so of course a Christian shouldn’t do that. On the other side, traditional Christian belief is that one should allow oneself to be killed rather than deny the faith. And I don’t know what a Buddhist would think of dying rather than denying their faith, it might be different.

Granted these are not your everyday situations (thank God) but just an example of how the underlying beliefs can call for different behavior in some circumstances, even if not in most circumstances.

So if I understand you correctly, there is a difference between you as a non-Christian and you as a Christian?

Yes.

And again, as you admit by "limited authority", you are not saying that non-Christians would inevitably select the immoral

No, I'm not.

... just that at a different point in your life, you would have chosen the immoral--and indeed are somewhat tempted by it now.

Right.

Is it possible you would agree with the idea that there is little or no difference in the required behavior Christian and that of a non-Christian?

Yes, I’d absolutely agree with that, and here’s the reason:

I’m going to construe your sentence strictly. By that I mean - you used the word “required”. I don’t know that you intended it like this, but I will take it like this anyway :) since I believe it’s true -

The behavior God requires of all men is the same, and all men know it. It is “published” in our conscience. All religions have recognized this, and have spoken of it in slightly differently ways, but it could be stated as it was in the East as the “Tao”, the Way. Founders and teachers of most religions have pointed to a Way, or pointed out and described the Way, but when Christ came, he pointed to Himself, He said “I’m it”, “I Am the Way”. We have in his biographies a picture of moral perfection, and he told all men to imitate it. “Be ye perfect”.

And again, the word “required” is key, because if good Buddhist behavior is required of Buddhism, it only matters if Buddhism is true. (To be accurate I’d have to say it only matters where it’s true, and to the extent it’s true, since I believe there’s truth in it, but I don’t believe all of it is true.) If the Buddha was only making up nice sounding stuff, with no actual relation to reality, then nothing at all is “required”. The same is true of Christ. By the same token, if there is no God, then there is no required behavior. In that case, “do what thou wilt...”

Anyway, I’d answer that question yes, for the above reason, but I’m still not sure if anyone’s addressing exactly what your getting at?

(NOTE: I don't think I was clear in the OP. Largely because I'm just now recalling the distinction that I'd been thinking about. I'm interested in active behavior--things that one does because one is a Christian apart from religious actions; NOT things that one does not do.)

In short, a convert to Christianity might limit herself from things she formerly found acceptable, but wouldn't necessarily find herself engaged in (non-religious) activities that she formerly would never have considered. I'm speaking in generalities. Of course, some individual somewhere might never have considered hammering nails for Habitat, but we know that many non-Christians do exactly that.

Make sense?

I’m sorry but I am confused on the above. By religious actions do you mean like some of the sacraments - baptism, Eucharist, confession, etc.?
 
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hsmommyofmany

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This is a good question. Am always worried about seeming egocentric with questions like this, though, because it's very "me focused" and hsmommyofmany is bang on in that this really isn't about us. Just a pre-emptive apology, really, for all the impending "I this" and "I that"s.

I'm a bi-sexual single woman, and a Christian of 2 and a half years, and I obey God every single day in not acting on homosexual thoughts or feelings. It's entirely His strength and grace, but I choose to lean on that strength and to accept that grace. I was never ever promiscuous, but where I could so easily hook up with an ex of either gender for one night or one weekend, I now choose to trust the Lord, and to trust His word.

It's only in doing so that I've discovered how unhealthy a relationship with sex many of us have - primarily women, perhaps - and it's only getting distance from it that's given me a real sense of peace and joy. Before Christ: feeling lonely, or miserable? Have sex with my girlfriend or boyfriend and let them temporarily chase the shadows away. With Christ, though, feelings of loneliness are given to Him, and He stills the soul as opposed to making you feel sated in the short run.

That's a monumental change, and not one I can explain any better than I've done so, appallingly.

Obeying God is being kind to someone who is cruel to me and truly, truly forgiving them and acknowledging am no better; obeying Him is giving even when I feel like I don't really have any to spare. Please understand, this isn't me saying am an awesome person - am a sucky excuse for a Christian, and am barely mediocre as a person, but God asks me to do these things, because He's extraordinary, so I do.

And it's only afterwards that I see how right He really was. I'll give an example. Have mentioned here before actually, the way people react if you give them money in line when they don't have enough. But the process leading up to it is interesting. God whsipers that you should give them the money they need - whether it's one pound, or whether they've left their wallet at home and need every penny - and your cheeks start to burn because it's not easy! If you only have enough on you for your own shopping, it's hard in that respect, but knowing you'll create suspicion isn't easy, either. It's actually embarrassing. What if they look at me funny? What if they say no thanks?

But God has asked you to do it, so you do, and there is often suspicion at first, but once they understand you really, really mean it and no, there's no catch, the relief and the surprise is amazing, and you realise you didn't need everything in your own basket, anyway. I've never said "God told me to give you this!" but I will say, "I'm a Christian, and this is the right thing to do..."

Their happiness, and the chance to witness for Him in such a normal, non-threatening situation is such a blessing, and makes me wonder why I was ever resistant. Who cares if they look at me funny!

I'm not for a second saying only Christians will give something to someone in need; most of my closest friends are atheists, and they're some of the most loving, best people I know... but I think only someone who has been prompted by God will give *everything* they have, because we know He will restore it, and we've done it because we know He loves the person we're giving it to.

Obeying Him by praying and fasting is all well and good - and as Christians, we should be doing both - but doing so out of obligation speaks to religiosity, as opposed to doing it because we know He loves us, and we want to do as He asks, because we love Him back.

I think, ultimately, what it comes down to is it's pointless obeying God "religiously" - we aren't saved by works. But by obeying Him in love, we ARE His hands here, because He asks us to love others, just as He did. Perhaps that's the difference between follwoing Him, and not.

Am sorry for typing such a long answer :hug:

what a wonderful, powerful testimony you have. praise God for the change he has brought to your life! he has given you such wisdom and strength. thank you for sharing. you have blessed me today.:amen:
 
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hsmommyofmany

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I am an atheist. I was a Christian all my life until this year. This entails being reared as a Christian. It entails having a born again experience. It entails having been a Sunday school teacher, treasurer, usher, special music, short term missionary and an elder.

I go to church because that is where my friends are. As I said, I was a Christian until this year. All the friends that I've acquired since living in this location are from church.

You might well then ask, where does this question come from. The answer is from the observation that Christianity makes little practical difference in peoples lives apart from religious observance.

i am very sorry that you feel that way...i think it is great that you are still going to church, perhaps one day someone or something will draw you back to the Lord...that is my prayer for you.

as far as making a practical difference, i am not sure which God you were worshipping when you did all those "things", but the one i worship makes a tremendous difference in my life everyday. i fear you may find out what a difference he could have made but it will be too late.

i hope that does not sound like i am putting you down...i am just being honest.:(
 
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Emmy

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Dear Tinker Grey. We come to God as we are, Jesus died for all humankind and reconciled us to God. We come to God as we are, and it is our choice to choose to follow Jesus, or go our own way. Jesus paid the price for our transgressions, which we could not pay, because we had wandered too far away from God. Obedient Christians follow Christ our Saviour, back to God. We are obedient to God`s Law of Love, Agape. Jesus told us to become perfect as God is perfect, we have been given years to become better and better, every time we dishonour God, or do not love/treat others as we would like others to love/treat us, we ask God for forgiveness. God sees our hearts, He knows how sincere we are, and He will forgive us. We might never reach perfection while on Earth, but God will know how sincerely we try, and we will find that our obedience bears fruit. We will be given the Love, Joy and Peace, only Jesus gives, and we will find that we have life abundant. Until we truly try to become obedient Christians, we will never know that God is with us, and His Blessings make all the difference. I say this humbly and with love, Tinker Grey. Emmy, sister in Christ.
 
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Chesterton

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You might well then ask, where does this question come from. The answer is from the observation that Christianity makes little practical difference in peoples lives apart from religious observance.

Okay, I just re-read this part, I understand what you're getting at.
 
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Tinker Grey

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I won't quote you, but I'd like to ask: if your point is that not only Christians are "good people", may I ask why you don't just ask outright? Or are you hoping we'll "work it out for ourselves"?

No. That isn't the question. As I stated (or tried to), the question is what does Christianity require of you in outward non-religious behavior that is unique to Christianity.

The answer so far appears to be nothing. Other religions do charity. Other religions require forgiveness. Other religions require thinking of others first. So, so far, the answer is nothing.

Because, I don't believe anyone has said, inferred or implied that only Christians are generous, or kind... so am a little confused about the way you've laid out the question.
No. No one has. And, I'm quite grateful for that. (I always find it interesting that those who claim such a thing display the least amount of grace.)

The question is simply what I stated.

I have to say, though, I disagree with you in terms of never seeing Christians give up *everything* they have in order to help others. Look up Jackie Pullinger, or David Wilkerson, or Demos Shakarian.
I know who Wilkerson is, but I don't know the others. But again, other religions have that.

But even without those examples, the ones I've given you are the just the experiences of a Christian, and another faith teaching something similar in no way negates Christ's exortations, or the Christian faith, which is what you seem to want to do. If someone feels Buddhism, for example, is the faith they want to follow, they have that right. But you appear to be trying to undermine the Christian faith, and no amount of intellectualizing or ethical debate will do so. Its tenets may be comparable, so its theology can be debated and compared and dissected, but Christianity is about Christ, and that's not something that be altered, regardless of how much some wish it could be.
Now, now. No need to get defensive. And, please don't read what I haven't written--I have no such desires.

The question was simple--and intended simply.
 
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Tinker Grey

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i am very sorry that you feel that way...i think it is great that you are still going to church, perhaps one day someone or something will draw you back to the Lord...that is my prayer for you.

as far as making a practical difference, i am not sure which God you were worshipping when you did all those "things", but the one i worship makes a tremendous difference in my life everyday. i fear you may find out what a difference he could have made but it will be too late.

i hope that does not sound like i am putting you down...i am just being honest.:(

Let me simply say I appreciate your sentiment and assure you that I've never been happier.

Let me also say I'm a little put-out that you would suggest that I didn't understand who I was worshipping--but we can let that go. I know you mean well but this smacks of condescension.

Again I wasn't speaking of a "practical difference" in what it means to you and your "heart", but rather I was speaking about actual actions.
 
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Tinker Grey

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Dear Tinker Grey. We come to God as we are, Jesus died for all humankind and reconciled us to God. We come to God as we are, and it is our choice to choose to follow Jesus, or go our own way. Jesus paid the price for our transgressions, which we could not pay, because we had wandered too far away from God. Obedient Christians follow Christ our Saviour, back to God. We are obedient to God`s Law of Love, Agape. Jesus told us to become perfect as God is perfect, we have been given years to become better and better, every time we dishonour God, or do not love/treat others as we would like others to love/treat us, we ask God for forgiveness. God sees our hearts, He knows how sincere we are, and He will forgive us. We might never reach perfection while on Earth, but God will know how sincerely we try, and we will find that our obedience bears fruit. We will be given the Love, Joy and Peace, only Jesus gives, and we will find that we have life abundant. Until we truly try to become obedient Christians, we will never know that God is with us, and His Blessings make all the difference. I say this humbly and with love, Tinker Grey. Emmy, sister in Christ.

I know the theology. I've believed it. I've taught it.

The question is about practical day-to-day behaviors.
 
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