Obedient Christians

[Tinker Grey]

Okay, I just re-read this part, I understand what you're getting at.

Thank you. I think from this and your last post, you've answered the question in a way that makes. It confirms my suspicions and my retrospections (is that a word) about my life as a Christian and my subsequent life as a non-Christian.

Contrary to GreenMunchkin's suspicions, there is no other shoe to drop.

Thanks for your efforts.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Okay, I just re-read this part, I understand what you're getting at.

Actually let me clarify -- since someone else used the word practical differently than I did.

I don't deny that religion (of any sort, actually) doesn't have an emotional impact and for many has positive personal implications.

So when I said practical, I meant outward observable behavior patterns.

And again, I think you answered the question admirably.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

No. That isn't the question. As I stated (or tried to), the question is what does Christianity require of you in outward non-religious behavior that is unique to Christianity.

The answer so far appears to be nothing. Other religions do charity. Other religions require forgiveness. Other religions require thinking of others first. So, so far, the answer is nothing.

If you were a Christian your entire life, why do you not already know this? Why did its being, apparently, outwardly identical to other faiths not bother you before? I don't meant that in the accusative sense - I just really don't understand your motives here, unless they are attempts at undermining the faith.

For argument's sake, let's say you're correct about Christianity being no different outwardly in terms of behaviour, how blessed we are that outward works aren't what saves us. We don't earn salvation, we're given it for free. That is precisely what differentiates Christianity from all other paths.

No. No one has. And, I'm quite grateful for that. (I always find it interesting that those who claim such a thing display the least amount of grace.)

I don't think it's at all as simple as that. "New Atheists", for example, have fundamentally altered what many perceive atheism to be, and many now see atheism as aggressive and cruel and relentlessly vitriolic, so if some perceive atheists to be mean, I can understand that.

Some Christians simply don't get it and feel they are somehow better than others and, yeah, they display an abject lack of grace, but it would behoove us all to open our minds to the possibility than people often feel a certain way because they've been hurt, not just because they're bad people.

The question is simply what I stated.

I know who Wilkerson is, but I don't know the others. But again, other religions have that.

That's awesome Do you have any examples, please? Am always interested in reading about kind things people have done. The problem here, though, is you keep shifting the goal-posts. You make a claim and rest your case; I repudiate your claim, and you quickly shift and say it doesn't matter anyway and others have done the same. Truly, why ask the question if you don't *want* an answer?

Now, now. No need to get defensive. And, please don't read what I haven't written--I have no such desires.

The question was simple--and intended simply.

I think you misconstrued my post, Tinker. I always find that people read defensiveness into the words of others when they want to see it there. Accusing someone of being defensive is sometimes intended to *put* them on the defensive - although, it may not be that with you and I'm trying not to prescribe motive. But in discussing Christ's glory, there's no need for it, so I promise, there's no bad feeling whatsoever from this side of the discussion.

I think atheists often feel that we feel somehow pressured into persuading you of something and if we can't, we get defensive and frustrated. There is no such pressure. We can share our beliefs as openly and honestly as possible - after that, it's up to God.

 

[Tinker Grey]

If you were a Christian your entire life, why do you not already know this?

There is a difference between not knowing and not really having thought about it before.

Why did its being, apparently, outwardly identical to other faiths not bother you before?

You assume that it did not. This aspect of life became a subtle part of my framework for evaluating things probably at least 10 years ago. I've only recently articulated it.

I don't meant that in the accusative sense - I just really don't understand your motives here, unless they are attempts at undermining the faith.

How about genuine curiosity? As I stated above (I believe to Chesterton), to the best of my recollection and experience, other than specifically religious activities (being a missionary, tithing, praying, baptizing, taking communion, going to church), Christianity doesn't ask anything in terms of day-to-day activity that distinguishes one as a Christian.

Unless I were to witness one praying, absent specialty clothing like a Sikh's turban or a Jew's tefillin, there is nothing in ones behavior that distinguishes one religion from another.

Christians, Buddhists, Taoists, etc. all have injunctions to treat people well. Basic human psychology enjoins us to practice a semblance of forgiveness.

If I remember correctly, and reading Chesterton's posts suggests that I do, what distinguishes Christianity is the underlying philosophy of it. "We do it to be closer to God. We do it to honor God for what he did for us. We do it because we love God." Whereas, a non-Christian humanitarian might do the same acts because "people have instrinsic value; and it is necessary for the propagation of the species"; or whatever.

For argument's sake, let's say you're correct about Christianity being no different outwardly in terms of behaviour, how blessed we are that outward works aren't what saves us. We don't earn salvation, we're given it for free. That is precisely what differentiates Christianity from all other paths.

Sure. I understand that. I've taught that. In some ways, I admire that.

I didn't give up Christianity because its doctrines, but rather for failure to have anything to do with reality, IMHO.

That's awesome Do you have any examples, please?

How about Buddhist and Hindu monks?

You make a claim and rest your case; I repudiate your claim, and you quickly shift and say it doesn't matter anyway and others have done the same. Truly, why ask the question if you don't *want* an answer?

You keep presupposing an ulterior motive. I just want a simple question answered.

Wilkerson lived in his car in New York to be a missionary to the gangs there. You really don't think other religious groups don't give up lives of relative comfort to spread the good news of their religions.

Besides, I consider this dialog a process that helps me refine the question. Wilkerson's acts are of a fundamentally religious sort. I looking, I guess, for what moral positive behaviors that Christians do (as opposed to immoral things abstained from) that distinguishes them as a Christian. Maybe that should read "what average Christians do" -- not the Billy Grahams and Wilkersons, et al. do.

Again, Chesterton answered the question. Others (even you) have answered the question in effect. All your answers are relatively consistent. And, as I said above, there is no other shoe to drop.

Undermining the faith? Seriously? Do you have a problem admitting that it is the philosophical underpinnings of your faith that make all the difference? Or, in spite of your protestations above, do you really think works save you?

I don't think you do.

I think you misconstrued my post, Tinker. I always find that people read defensiveness into the words of others when they want to see it there. Accusing someone of being defensive is sometimes intended to *put* them on the defensive - although, it may not be that with you and I'm trying not to prescribe motive. But in discussing Christ's glory, there's no need for it, so I promise, there's no bad feeling whatsoever from this side of the discussion.

I'm glad to here that there are no bad feelings. But when you suggest that I want to undermine the faith, that I am somehow not being genuine, that you seem suspicious of what I say (doubting my integrity) out-loud, as it were, then yes, I think you are being defensive.

I think atheists often feel that we feel somehow pressured into persuading you of something and if we can't, we get defensive and frustrated. There is no such pressure. We can share our beliefs as openly and honestly as possible - after that, it's up to God.

If you can't answer, just say so. It's like teaching your kids, whether you teach as a vocation or as a parent, the best parenting is to admit what you don't know. If they smell BS, your students and/or children will learn not to trust you.

As I said earlier, I've gotten answers that are consistent with each other and with my sense of things.

If you have nothing to add, then we can be done.

 

[Harry3142]

There is a 'Christians' Code of Conduct' which Scripture states that we are to live by. This is it:

"So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law."

"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will never inherit the kingdom of God."

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other." (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

An 'obedient Christian' is simply one who has permitted the Holy Spirit to take the lead, and then willingly follows that lead. It's not a reason for any of us Christians to boast, due to the fact that it's the Holy Spirit who is doing the work; we are just cooperating with him.

 

[RobinRedbreast]

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Thread closed at the request of the OP.

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