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I was a Creationist...now I don't know what I believe.

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WorshipBassist

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I've been doing a LOT of research about evolution and Creationism and I'm beginning to realise that many of the Creation science theories are fundamentally flawed.

In particular I've been reading the works of Prof. Richard Dawkins, the world-famous evolutionary scientist.

So can anyone help me? What should I as a Christian believe? Can evolution and religion sit together?
 

AV1611VET

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I've been doing a LOT of research about evolution and Creationism and I'm beginning to realise that many of the Creation science theories are fundamentally flawed.
Good for you --- I agree --- :thumbsup:

Creation Science is a contradiction in terms.
In particular I've been reading the works of Prof. Richard Dawkins, the world-famous evolutionary scientist.
Okie-doke.
So can anyone help me? What should I as a Christian believe? Can evolution and religion sit together?
Indeed there is help --- you can tell science to take a hike (where it contradicts the Scriptures); and, yes, limited evolution and our relationship to Jesus Christ can sit together, albeit in separate seats.

Just remember that science was made for man --- not man for science --- and you'll be alright.
 
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Mallon

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Welcome, WorshipBassist. I invite you to come hang out in the evolutionary creationist (TE) subforum and ask your questions there. Many of us have gone through (and are going through) the same struggle as yourself. We believe that science and religion can indeed interact harmoniously, as opposed to the dichotomous 'warfare' model pushed by Dawkins and by people here like AV1611VET.

There's an excellent essay concerning the interaction of science and Christian faith here:
http://www.ualberta.ca/~dlamoure/3EvoCr.htm
Definitely worth checking out and considering seriously.
 
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Matthewj1985

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Stay away from Dawkins if you are a thinking person. Dawkins really helped me over the hump from agnosticism to atheism. Look at Ken Miller (great videos on the web BTW) or Dr. Francis Collins. Anyone who tells you that it is Young Earth Creationism or hell is lying to you and hurting the faith more than they realize. As a seeker of the Christian faith I can also say that AV's attitude of "no matter how much evidence there is, if it disagrees with the bible it has to be wrong" is also a bit silly. Many people, much smarter than all of us here of no problem with Christianity and science.
 
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BeforeTheFoundation

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Hello Worshipbassist! Many Christians go through this and I have mixed feelings about what you posted.

On one hand, I think that Creation 'Science' is ridiculous. I am sorry if I offend anyone by saying that but it is how I feel.

However, at the same time, I think that Richard Dawkins is awful. Not because he is an atheist but because he refuses to actually address the plurality of views in Christianity when he argues against it. When he argues against Christianity he constructs a straw man argument in order to knock it down. If you don't really really know a lot about Christian doctrines he can seem quite convincing, but truth is he makes a lot of things up.

A good alternative would be Alister McGrath. He is a professor with a PhD in molecular biophysics and an excellent theologian and is the Professor of Historical Theology at Oxford University.
 
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gluadys

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So can anyone help me? What should I as a Christian believe? Can evolution and religion sit together?

Absolutely! There is a growing list of resources for those interested in exploring science and faith together. The July 8 post on this blog lists 10 recent books mostly by scientists who are also Christian.


http://evanevodialogue.blogspot.com/search/label/recommendations


If you check out some of the names (Kenneth Miller, John Polkinghorne) you can also find quite a few You Tube videos that give you a flavour of the ideas.

For reading, probably the best place to start is with either Finding Darwin's God by Miller or The Language of God by Collins. Both of these are good introductions for the average reader.
 
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shernren

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Well, if there are any particular, specific issues, why not just ask them here and now? Some of us have undergone the YEC-to-evolutionary creationist transition and, lo and behold, still Christian we are. (Unless you ask some of our YEC brethren of course, but that's their business.)

There are really two big questions:

1. Why should I believe in Young-Earth Creationism? and
2. If I can no longer believe in Young-Earth Creationism, why should I still believe in Christianity?

It will help over the course of your thinking to be able to clearly sort out your questions into those two categories, not least because Richard Dawkins obviously isn't going to be very much help at all in category 2.

Feel free to ask around, we promise we've heard all the questions before.
 
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WorshipBassist

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Well, if there are any particular, specific issues, why not just ask them here and now? Some of us have undergone the YEC-to-evolutionary creationist transition and, lo and behold, still Christian we are. (Unless you ask some of our YEC brethren of course, but that's their business.)

There are really two big questions:

1. Why should I believe in Young-Earth Creationism? and
2. If I can no longer believe in Young-Earth Creationism, why should I still believe in Christianity?

It will help over the course of your thinking to be able to clearly sort out your questions into those two categories, not least because Richard Dawkins obviously isn't going to be very much help at all in category 2.

Feel free to ask around, we promise we've heard all the questions before.

Unfortunately my problem comes from my belief that the Bible is to be taken ABSOLUTELY literally and anything else is a rejection of faith.

:prayer: PLease don't let me become atheist.
 
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shernren

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Well there's an interesting assumption right there. What makes you think that the Bible needs to be taken literally?

Of course the Bible needs to be taken seriously. But the two may at times be opposed to each other.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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Two points to consider. First, many people confuse their interpretation of the Bible with the Bible itself. Second, many people fall into the trap of equating the evolution/creation issue with the age of the earth, when in reality they are two separate issues.
 
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Mallon

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Unfortunately my problem comes from my belief that the Bible is to be taken ABSOLUTELY literally and anything else is a rejection of faith.
Hmmm... you appear to buy into the idea that in order for the Bible to be true, it must be read literally throughout. So to echo shernren: Why?
By insisting that the Bible must rise or fall based on how literally it can be read, or based on how well it accords with science, you're setting yourself up for a crisis of faith. A quick glance at Church history shows that these simplistic assumptions have not withstood the test of time. That's why militant atheists like Dawkins are so quick to attack the science assumed by the Bible rather than its message.
Instead, why not reconsider your starting assumptions by taking a lesson from the incarnation of Christ? The embodiment of Christ was an accommodation by the Lord to human perspective and understanding. It was God getting down on one knee so that He could better relate to us His message of love and salvation. With God's accommodating nature in mind, does it not therefore make sense to assume that He would accommodate similar spiritual messages in the form of the Bible, using language and imagery the Hebrew people would have been familiar with? If so, then trying to force a literal reading of the Bible (especially Genesis) to align with 21st century science is missing the forest for the trees. The messages of faith, love, creation, and redemption that God has given us stand apart from the incidental vessel in which He has delivered them to us. Magical gardens and talking snakes need not have existed in order for us to know that we are sinful and in need of salvation.
 
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vossler

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you can tell science to take a hike (where it contradicts the Scriptures); and, yes, limited evolution and our relationship to Jesus Christ can sit together, albeit in separate seats.

Just remember that science was made for man --- not man for science --- and you'll be alright.
Great advice, you can never go wrong when you rely on the Scriptures. Man and his theories are fine for earthly matters but nothing, absolutely nothing, ever supersedes God's Word. Trust in Him and His Word; if you can do that I can guarantee you that you will receive the peace of God the surpasses all understanding. Contrary to what you've heard, you and I don't need to know everything, everything we need to know, God has told us. Beyond that, everything else is superfluous.

Evolutionists will distract you with their science and other man-derived theories. Ultimately you need to remember this; man's ideas are in a constant state of change and flux, and evolution, like all other man-derived ideas, is no different. Over the last 150 years it's been under constant change, yet through it all the Word of God, and God Himself, have never changed. Stay anchored to the Rock and you'll never be led astray.

So when you hear things like:

There are really two big questions:

1. Why should I believe in Young-Earth Creationism? and
2. If I can no longer believe in Young-Earth Creationism, why should I still believe in Christianity?
Remember that neither question is even remotely big, what is big is what does God say? So if you want to understand Scripture, please don't look to science to give you answers to biblical questions. God has spoken, have faith and trust Him to be true and never ever put your trust in man and his theories, many of which are based on speculation and conjecture. If you do, you'll be disappointed every time. No, rely on the Holy Spirit to guide and direct your path to the Truth which is clearly written in God's Word.

The reason we sometimes can't fully understand the Bible isn't because there is something missing. No, it is because we haven't removed the dirt and film (secular thinking) covering our eyes and replaced it with spiritual thinking. Think of it like having 20/400 vision and instead of looking to man for assistance in seeing the spiritual truth of God's Word, you turn to the Holy Spirit instead. He will help you see and understand all that you need to know, everything else is just a distraction from the Truth. Don't forgot what the Bible says about the crafty source of all those distractions.

Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.
Don't be like the scribes and pharisees who were caught up in their own pride and unable to see and hear the truth when it was presented to them. Instead they became pawns of Satan.

John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
All lies have their origin with Satan, evolution is no different.

May God bless you in your pursuit of the Truth. :amen:
 
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huldah153

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Unfortunately my problem comes from my belief that the Bible is to be taken ABSOLUTELY literally and anything else is a rejection of faith.

:prayer: PLease don't let me become atheist.

I can appreciate your desire to read Genesis absolutely literally, and to some extent Dawkins is right when he says that evolution invalidates the doctrine of original sin. However, I have seen nothing in the fossil record that invalidates the historical evidence for the Resurrection of Christ (see 'The Case for the Resurrection' by Gary Habermas).

The Bible did not exactly appear to us from Heaven in a chariot. Each book, including Genesis, was subject to committee approval in 400 AD. In fact, the first Christian canon did not include Genesis at all, so it's fair to say that Christ's message can prevail without the Old Testament.
 
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AV1611VET

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Unfortunately my problem comes from my belief that the Bible is to be taken ABSOLUTELY literally and anything else is a rejection of faith.
That's not your PROBLEM, Bassist, that's your SOLUTION --- :)

When you consider that Jesus interpreted the Scriptures literally, you're on your way to becoming a mature student of the Word.

It was Plato that popularized the Allegorical Method of interpretation of the Old Testament. He wanted to blend Hellenistic thinking with Judaism, and the only way he could do it was to blur the line between the two by allegorizing everything.
 
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huldah153

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When you consider that Jesus interpreted the Scriptures literally, you're on your way to becoming a mature student of the Word.


  1. Mark 10:6, in context, is teaching about divorce. Jesus uses the Genesis creation story to illustrate his point in verse 9: "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." This point can still stand even if the reference verse 6 was allegorical. Just because Jesus refers to scripture, doesn't demonstrate that the scripture was intended to be taken literally. This is reinforced by what Matthew records for the same event (Matthew 19:4) "Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female", showing that Jesus is using what the audience would have read in scripture of Genesis, rather affirming what actually happened at creation, to illustrate his point.
  2. When Jesus mentions the Flood (Matthew 24:37–39, Luke 17:26-27), he is using it as an simile to the second coming. Even a fictional story could be used in such a way, just as a forbidden romance could today be likened to Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. There is again no reason to assume that Jesus is actually affirming the truth of Genesis.
  3. This assumes that the texts of the New Testament accurately document Jesus' words. Not all people (or even all Christians) agree on this point; only those that do will find this claim convincing.
http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Creationist_claims
 
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