YES or NO: Is It Fair That Some People Are Going To Hell? (2)

[Floatingaxe]

Actually, faith is logical. Faith, precisely speaking, is a blessing of knowledge bestowed upon us by the Holy Spirit. Faith is knowledge.



What is faith, but a knowledge of God? What is knowledge but a logical construct of human rationality and mentality?

Faith defies logic in many ways. After all, how did Elisha's stick cause a heavy, iron axehead to float up from the bottom of the Jordan River? By faith I know the power of God caused it to become of less mass than water! What does your logic say?

Human rationale and mentality is flawed at best. So, knowledge is not to be prized above knowing the truth of God.

 

[Tissue]

Faith defies logic in many ways.

If faith defied logic, then it would be irrational, such that a person would literally have to become insane to become a Christian, and this is simply not the case. It's ridiculous to suggest that, in order to become more in touch with reality, we must become irrational.

Human rationale and mentality is flawed at best. So, knowledge is not to be prized above knowing the truth of God.

See? You even used the word "knowing". What you effectively said here is "Knowledge is not to be prized above knowledge". The truth of God is, within us, knowledge. This knowledge is implanted by the Holy Spirit, is rational, and is therefore subject to the same mental issues that our brains are limited to. We cannot have absolute certainty.

If you will not refute my argument, then you and I really have nothing further to say to each other. You cannot make further headway in this discussion without resolving my points.

 

[Floatingaxe]

That doesn't mean anything. How can you refute a logical argument by saying it doesn't have faith?

You are being irrational, now. If you do not refute my argument, then, regardless of what you say about faith, you are entirely unable to maintain sincerity, intelligence, and your position. You can't just enter a discussion, make your claims, entirely ignore counter-arguments, and then expect to maintain some sort of dignity or rationality. This forum isn't your personal soapbox.

It's not yours either, pal.

 

[Tissue]

This is a debate forum. I am providing my opinion accompanied by argument (such as my main one on page 26, which disproves your's, HuntingMan's, and Zaac's positions, and which none of you have been able to refute). You are only providing your opinion, with no accompanying argument, or willingness to confront the arguments of others.

 

[HuntingMan]

Faith defies logic in many ways. After all, how did Elisha's stick cause a heavy, iron axehead to float up from the bottom of the Jordan River? By faith I know the power of God caused it to become of less mass than water! What does your logic say?

Human rationale and mentality is flawed at best. So, knowledge is not to be prized above knowing the truth of God.

We're both old school, FA...back when things were a bit clearer. I dont see you getting any agreement from that particular poster on the matter regardless.

Hebrews 11 shows us what faith is...and it is nothing like what that poster seems to think..

 

[Floatingaxe]

This is a debate forum. I am providing my opinion accompanied by argument (such as my main one on page 26, which disproves your's, HuntingMan's, and Zaac's positions, and which none of you have been able to refute). You are only providing your opinion, with no accompanying argument, or willingness to confront the arguments of others.

Oh we refute alright, and very well, because what we believe is the truth of the matter.

I haven't seen ANYTHING to refute us yet.

 

[HuntingMan]

Biblical faith surpasses mans fallible reasoning and logic...

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Heisenberg, whoever he is, sounds like someone Id personally avoid like the black plague.

*LMAO* If your computer works, its proof Heisenberg was correct. Education and knowledge won't hurt you you know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

 

[Floatingaxe]

If faith defied logic, then it would be irrational, such that a person would literally have to become insane to become a Christian, and this is simply not the case. It's ridiculous to suggest that, in order to become more in touch with reality, we must become irrational.



See? You even used the word "knowing". What you effectively said here is "Knowledge is not to be prized above knowledge". The truth of God is, within us, knowledge. This knowledge is implanted by the Holy Spirit, is rational, and is therefore subject to the same mental issues that our brains are limited to. We cannot have absolute certainty.

If you will not refute my argument, then you and I really have nothing further to say to each other. You cannot make further headway in this discussion without resolving my points.

Faith is irrational, praise God!

 

[HuntingMan]

*LMAO* If your computer works, its proof Heisenberg was correct. Education and knowledge won't hurt you you know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

Yeah yeah..we've heard it all before....modern medicine wouldnt exist without evolution theory

Complete nonsense.

A person can be right and figure ONE thing out and still be dead wrong about everything else.
Science can figure out how to make a microwave oven to burn my burger quicker....but that doesnt mean that men evolved from lower life forms.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Its still fine.
Gods truth is absolute. Either these true believers have come to understand that truth, or they havent. Hopefully they will.
It remains truth, however ....whether they do or do not ever finally understand or accept it.

Thats what both tissue and I are saying!

An objective, single Truth DOES exist... however, it is beyond any mere human to understand it. All we can ever do is attemp[t to understand it, and, while some of us may be closer than others, none of us will ever nail it 100%.

 

[HuntingMan]

Faith is irrational, praise God!

absolutely it is....you wont convince these types tho...

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,


By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
(Heb 11:24-25 KJV)


Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.



​

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Yeah yeah..we've heard it all before....modern medicine wouldnt exist without evolution theory

Complete nonsense.

A person can be right and figure ONE thing out and still be dead wrong about everything else.
Science can figure out how to make a microwave oven to burn my burger quicker....but that doesnt mean that men evolved from lower life forms.

Um, proof that you aren't reading links at least... Heisenberg was a theoretical physicist and Quantum mechanic. His theoretical work was an integral part of developing nuclear fission, and is now an integral part in semi-conductor technology. Nothing to do with evolution or medicine.

As someone who claims to have access to "the Truth", I'd have thought you'd know this.

 

[HuntingMan]

Thats what both tissue and I are saying!

An objective, single Truth DOES exist... however, it is beyond any mere human to understand it. All we can ever do is attemp[t to understand it, and, while some of us may be closer than others, none of us will ever nail it 100%.

No....you are making it some game where we question everything to death so as to NEVER come to ANY actual conclusion....I know the game, EP...

 

[HuntingMan]

Um, proof that you aren't reading links at least... Heisenberg was a theoretical physicist and Quantum mechanic. His theoretical work was an integral part of developing nuclear fission, and is now an integral part in semi-conductor technology. Nothing to do with evolution or medicine.

I see you missed the point, as usual. Typical.

As someone who claims to have access to "the Truth", I'd have thought you'd know this.

uh...the truth *I* care about is in Gods word....not some philosophers nonsense.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

No....you are making it some game where we question everything to death so as to NEVER come to ANY actual conclusion....I know the game, EP...

What? I come to conclusions all the time! I merely accept that any conclusion I have may be subject to refinement in the face of additional evidence that I may not have been aware of when making the initial conclusion.

Seems to be a lot more sensible to be open to the possibility that there is more information than what you possess than to claim "This belief right here is the TRUTH" despite any subsequent evidence that may later be presented.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I see you missed the point, as usual. Typical.

If people keep missing your point, have you ever considered the possibility that maybe it is your explanations that are at fault?

uh...the truth *I* care about is in Gods word....not some philosophers nonsense.

Heisenberg's theories are very VERY well supported by evidence. Every charector apearing on your screen as you type is a direct demonstration that his uncertainty principle is an accurate descriptor of reality.

But I anticipate that you would rather deny reality so that you can make vague and tenuous claims about being in possesion of "Truth".

Can't you see how ludicrous it is to claim to have the complete Truth when you don't have access to every FACT?

 

[Tissue]

Oh we refute alright, and very well, because what we believe is the truth of the matter.

I haven't seen ANYTHING to refute us yet.

You believe that you can know absolute truth with absolute certainty. You also believe that only the Triune God has infinite knowledge. Nevertheless, to believe that you can know absolute truth is also a personal claim of infinite knowledge when fully worked out. In order to know that you can know absolute truth with absolute certainty, you must be certain of your knowledge because of the basis upon which it is built.

This certainty is placed within the mind, which is a physical organ and prone to hallucinations and dementia. It is entirely possible that you are the victim of some mental anomaly that produces hallucinations of the sort that would cause you to believe in certain things with absolute certainty. Yet, if it is based upon a mental anomaly, such knowledge would be entirely unjustified. Finally, since such a mental anomaly is at least possible, and since you clearly can provide no argument proving that you are not underneath some mental anomaly, then you cannot be absolutely certain.

Of course, that's a rather extreme example. I don't think you've got a mental anomaly. You don't think you do either. But it is entirely possible that you do (or I do, or anyone does), and since even one possibility negating the proper development of absolute certainty exists, then the whole of absolute certainty must necessarily come crashing down. We might get danged close to absolute certainty (after all, how can we possibly believe 1 + 1 = 3?), but it is ultimately a circumstance only possible to God in his infinite wisdom and knowledge.

Ultimately, to know with absolute certainty, one MUST have infinite knowledge, for one would need to know that every possibility that would defeat our absolute certainty is not true (that is, you would need to be able to know that you are not under a mental anomaly, which you can not know), and since there are an infinite number of potential possibilities, one must possess infinite knowledge.

This is my argument, from page 26. If you choose to ignore it (which is what you're currently doing, apparently), then you can do nothing more in this discussion. I have literally proved you wrong. If you do not see how this argument relates, then I'm not sure how relevant your opinions are, and I certainly don't think you're capable of teaching.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Oh... and just thopught I'd point out the significant difference between philosophical nonsense and observable physics.

 

[HuntingMan]

What? I come to conclusions all the time!

Really ?
Share some of them here with us so we can see if we can question those conclusions to death for you.
As I said, this is more about the question than it is the answer.

I merely accept that any conclusion I have may be subject to refinement in the face of additional evidence that I may not have been aware of when making the initial conclusion.

Thats really nice, poster...and for those of us who HAVE read the whole bible and DO continually read it so that WE probably HAVENT missed much of it, if anything ?...are you going to concede the same sort of reasoning on our parts and admit that if we HAVENT missed anything on a given matter that there may not be any additional evidence to find ?

Again...it doesnt matter what conclusion modern thinking comes to, it ALWAYS keeps pushing more questions so that there is NO such thing as objective truth....EVERY conclusion is subjective as it must be in that sort of mindset.

Seems to be a lot more sensible to be open to the possibility that there is more information than what you possess than to claim "This belief right here is the TRUTH" despite any subsequent evidence that may later be presented.

And WE HERE are discussing scripture.
I realize its hard for some here to grasp, but the bible only has so much data on AnY given topic...so...you know....there isnt some infinite stream of incoming data to constantly be on guard for.

Ive READ the bible, poster...I KNOW what it says about things like sex and marriage. There is nothing more to ADD except new revelation...and hopefully you know better than that....