Nicene Creed -- what's yer beef?

[Albion]

Dear Anglian and Thekla,

Do you both agree that the other one's church (EO,OO) is Orthodox?

 

[Thekla]

Dear Anglian and Thekla,

Do you both agree that the other one's church (EO,OO) is Orthodox?

I have not been involved in, nor attended, an OO Church; there is no way for me to assess such a thing. At any rate, it is not my judgment to make.

 

[Anglian]

Dear Albion,

Having attended many Russian and Greek Orthodox Liturgies I see no difference whatsoever; all are Orthodox.

Indeed, having been to a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church this Sunday last, it differed in no way from a Greek Orthodox service except in its language (Ukrainian). I don't understand Ukrainian, but understand koine Greek and so followed the whole service save for the homily.

peace,

Anglian

 

[Anglian]

Some some creed made by men is the universal accepted appeal?

The Creed is a statement of what the early Christians defined as the norm; it has been accepted by Christians for as long as the NT canon in which you put all your faith; indeed it was the same council which validated both; you accept one of its decisions and query the other.

Evidently it does. Becuase if I don't subscribe to it, adhere to it, confess it, make use of it, I'm not "orthodox." And by that, I mean that don't believe the same things the early Christians did.

Only you can say so; if you do, it is as you say.

And God's word the Bible can't do that, only the Nicene Creed can do that?

No. The same council which decided on the canon you rely on decided on this Creed; how do you know the Bible you rely on is God-inspired? Where, in its pages, does it tell you what books are and are not to be included?

As I stated how many times before, what I critize is the use of it as an identifier of who is and who isn't to be considered a Christian! What I critize is the use of it as a determining factor for church membership!

Well, that is what it has been for these 1700 years; you prefer your own judgement, fair enough.

Well I can! My Bible tells me so!

And you know that the Bible as you receive it is the right one how? The earliest surviving codices include books you and I do not receive; it was the decision of the Church which created the book you receive.

I beleive in Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God!

As do we all.

I AM SAVED! I AM SAVED BY THE GRACE OF GOD, I AM SAVED!

And not only that but I have assurance of it :

Splendid. Let us hope God agrees.

I am truely saddened that you cannot say this

I am only saved in that I have been born again in water and in blood, but I am being saved by His Grace, and I hope to be saved by His mercy. For Orthodox Christians salvation is a process, not an event.

Therein lies the difference. You have the creed, and I have the "God-Breathed" word.

You have the latter because you accept the books which the Church decided were the genuine Apostolic deposit. How do you know that the Codex Sinaiticus is not the God-breathed word? It is the earliest surviving copy of the NT we have. Neither yourself, nor any who claim to hold only to the Bible actually do so; you all hold to the book which the early Church decided should be received by all.

peace,

Anglian

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Again, that may have been the case in the past, but why should it be the standard today???????????????????????????????

Like I said, evidently, my confession isn't enough, I must adhere to, submit to, recite some creed to be accepted as, identified as, a Christian.

That I cannot, and I will not accept.

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean,

I don't believe anyone is suggesting that anyone's salvation is in jeopardy whether or not they choose to recite the Nicene Creed.

The orignal point of this thread was to discover what parts of the creed specifically people have a problem with.

I spent a good majority of my life in the Baptist Church, and know that while they do not recite the creed, they do not have a problem with the principles it promotes.

Furthermore, the creed is still used today because it is just as true today as it was when it was written. It is not meant to be critical to our salvation to recite it; what is critical is that we believe the prinicples in what it teaches.

The purpose of this thread is to ask those who disagree with these principles WHY they disagree with them.

As I stated earlier, I learn more from those who disagree with me than those who agree with me.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Dear Anglian and Thekla,

Do you both agree that the other one's church (EO,OO) is Orthodox?

We recognize them as Christians, but we are not in communion with one another.

 

[DeaconDean]

deleted

 

[Tonks]

Let me ask you something, Dean...

Up front let me say that I'm not going I'm not going to get dragged into a discussion about the Nicene Creed on CF...as far as I'm concerned that is a settled debate as it is not used anymore. I want an answer which addresses the question purely from a statement of faith angle.

I was reading the Restorationist forum to learn a bit more about them and came across this post of yours:

I'm not here to debate or anything like that, so please do not not draw me into anything like that.

I have a simple question that once answered, I'll leave.

Can somebody direct me to a place where I can find a list of Church of Christ beliefs and/or doctrines?

Just like Baptists have their Confessions of Faith, I am looking for something along these lines.

Something along the lines of what exactly do you teach concerning salvation, faith, the scriptures, etc.

Thank you.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I'd like you to address the bit in red with respect to the Creed. While I'll concede that that the Creed doesn't address Scripture I'd like to know 1) how the Creed cannot be considered a baseline Confession of Faith and 2) how it does not outline what we teach and / or believe.

As you, likewise, mentioned in that thread...you deal in specifics and not generalities...so please be specific regarding why the Creed is substantially different than a Confessional statement...while noting that both can be backed up with Scripture.

Muchas gracias.

ps - didn't know you were in seminary. how's that going?

 

[DeaconDean]

deleted

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

IMHO, all this is very simple....


The word "credo" means "I believe."
Creeds are, by definition and understanding, statements of our belief.

"Jesus is Lord" is a creed.
"You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God" is a creed.
"I believe in Jesus" is a creed.
"God's Word is truth" is a creed.
"I don't believe in creeds" is (ironcially) a creed!

Jesus said, "If you profess with your mouth...." Creed.....


I've never known a Baptist or Fundamentalist who insisted that he not say what he believes; in fact, many of them are very open about what they believe and what they regard as truth, issuing a LOT of creeds in the process.

Thus, I've always found it confusing why some of them will say "I don't believe in creeds!" (thus, stating a creed - contradicting their very point).





Now, what I asked Deacon Dean earlier but he didn't answer, is the question I've asked several others who have the creed: "I don't believe in creeds." Is the issue that you are strongly opposed to saying what you believe (creeds) OR is the issue that our statements of what we believe are regarded as normative equal to Scripture? In other words, is the "issue" creeds or the authority given to them? DeaconDean chose not to answer that. I don't recall anyone who said they were opposed to creeds ever answering that....


IF the problem is creeds = norma normans, then all Protestants agree. Lutherans always use the ancient, ecumenical Creeds in our liturgy - the Nicene is associated with the Holy Eucharist and the Apostle's with Holy Baptism (my church used both last Sunday since we had a Baptism). As we do, we are holding hands with the whole communion of saints, over all the centuries and contentents, professing "We believe....." But NO Protestant is saying such is norma normans (norma normata at MOST, at MOST). It's not the Rule or Canon, it is OUR statement of what we beleive. Now, with billions of other Christians, I think those Creeds are biblical (you may not fully agree) but they are not norma normans - and NO Protestant denomination known to me believes they are, and I CERTAINLY don't think so.




Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





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[DeaconDean]

deleted

 

[Rhamiel]

I have said it before and I'll say it again, the confessions are not binding in any way, rather they are a summary of what we believe the bible teaches.

how is it not binding? you are claiming it as your belief, your summery of the Bible? That is how we look at the Nicene Creed, a summery of what the Bible teaches and a statement of what we believe

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

You said:

"That's your creed. So, how can you say your against creeds?"

That is the problem friend, you have this notion that if a person says they believe anything, that is a creed. Its the way you define "creed" that gets to me.

If I say, "I believe in the tooth fariy" then by your standard, that is my creed.

If I say "I believe in Santa Claus" then that is my creed.

If I say "I believe that the sun will shine if it don't rain" that is my creed.

I believe that my wife loves me, is that my creed?

You said:

Creed. From the Latin "credo." The word means "I believe."
Creeds are statements of faith.
​

I believe a number of things. I believe that there is a fallen angel named Lucifer, Satan. Is that my creed?

If I go to a resturant, I say: "I believe I'll have the ham and eggs" is that my creed?

I believe that if the Lord doesn't return before I get through posting this, it'll be posted. Is that my creed?

Its the way you define "creed" that I take issue with.

I personally believe a number of things, does that qualify them as my creeds?

I believe that even though I may personally disagree with Catholicism, we are still brothers in Christ. Is that my "creed?"

I believe that if I pull the trigger on my 9mm, the pistol will fire. Is that my "creed?"

Like I said, its the way you define "creed" that I take issue with. According to your standard, if I say I believe anything, even the rediculous, that becomes my "creed."

And yes, I have an issue with creeds and confession usurping authority.

Yes.

By definition, all those things you said are creeds.
They might be personal creeds or corporate creeds, but obviously, they are creeds.


Creed = a statement of belief.


I believe Toyota makes good cars. That is, by definition, a creed.
I believe my mom makes great mac and cheese. A creed.
I believe in Jesus. That is, by definition, a creed.



I'll ask yet again: What is so very wrong with saying what we believe?
What is wrong with saying, "Jesus is Lord" or "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God?"






Again, I'll ask: Is your 'issue' with stating what we believe (creeds) OR is your issue with such being regarded as norma normans (which no Protestant denomination does)?



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[DeaconDean]

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[Albion]

We recognize them as Christians, but we are not in communion with one another.

Thank you, but what I asked was whether you consider them to be Orthodox. Please do answer this if you care to.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Do you recite the Nicene Creed before any church service, or even during the church service?

In my homeschool days, I worked with a large Baptist school.
We had our awards, graduations, etc. all as a part of the Sunday morning worship service of the sponsoring large Baptist church. Thus, I've been to many Baptist worship services.

OFTEN, the preacher or someone else would make a statement of faith (creed). In fact, I remember one time when a professional football player was a guest of the service and give his "testimony" His entire testimony was his creed. I saw NOTHING that indicated that Baptist church was opposed to people saying what they beleive - thus was opposed to creeds - including in the worship service. In fact, that testimony was MUCH longer and more detailed than either the Apostles or Nicene creeds - and a LOT more focus was given to it, and yes, it was a part of the worship service.






.

 

[Albion]

I have not been involved in, nor attended, an OO Church; there is no way for me to assess such a thing. At any rate, it is not my judgment to make.

Hmmm. Then you are also unable to detemine if several thousand Protestant denominations are or are not Orthodox. Somehow, I don't feel that that is a candid answer. After all, you know that the OO don't accept the 4th, 5th, 6th, or 7th Ecumenical Council--it's common knowledge even if Anglian had not advised us of this many times. Do Eastern Orthodox Christians not have any opinion on the Ecumenical Councils or consider it relevant to true doctrine?

 

[DeaconDean]

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[Tonks]

It was only some years later that scripture references were added, almost as an afterthought.​

It rather sounds like you're stating that had the creed been written in exactly the same manner that it currently exists, but was done after the Canon was closed and cited specific scripture it would be perfectly OK. That isn't a terribly logical statement, frankly.
​

 

[Albion]

Dear Albion,

Having attended many Russian and Greek Orthodox Liturgies I see no difference whatsoever; all are Orthodox.

Indeed, having been to a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church this Sunday last, it differed in no way from a Greek Orthodox service except in its language (Ukrainian). I don't understand Ukrainian, but understand koine Greek and so followed the whole service save for the homily.

peace,

Anglian

So that's your answer--Orthodoxy is defined by worshipping according to a certain liturgy? ... meaning that all the talk about Sacred Tradition, Apostles this or that, and the Ecumenical Councils, etc. is in your category of things that are not essential.

Interesting.

And of course we already have Thekla's answer which was that she can't judge, even knowing that the OO don't accept most of the the Seven Ecumenical Councils.

Funny thing, though, you and she and every other Orthodox Christian on these forums of whatever church calling itself Orthodox constantly judges the rest of us Christians to be not Orthodox, insisting that we do not have the fullness of the faith.


I should change my question. Friends, "WHAT IS ORTHODOXY?"

That is, what specific and identifiable marks, characteristics, beliefs, practices make one "Orthodox?" If there is an unwillingness to say is the next person calling himself Orthodox actually is one, just answer this question instead.