Is the fourth commandment done away with? (Moved)

[A Brother In Christ]

what is the passage about doing the whole law

if one super small part of the law is not done one is guilty of all the law

 

[RND]

what is the passage about doing the whole law

if one super small part of the law is not done one is guilty of all the law

Which law needs to be done in order for one to be guilty of the "whole" law?

 

[visionary]

Which law needs to be done in order for one to be guilty of the "whole" law?

Which law do you not do? or should I ask which law do you not do?

 

[RND]

Which law do you not do? or should I ask which law do you not do?

Um, le'me see. I observe all the Ten and I observe the applicable Mosaic law. But through the Holy Spirit I do my best (I'm a work in progress) to observe the "two" from which all the Torah and Tenahk hang.

How am I doing so far!

 

[visionary]

Um, le'me see. I observe all the Ten and I observe the applicable Mosaic law. But through the Holy Spirit I do my best (I'm a work in progress) to observe the "two" from which all the Torah and Tenahk hang.

How am I doing so far!

Yep. I think that about sums it up.

 

[heymikey80]

Lets look at Hebrews 3 to find out what Hebrews 4 is talking about

Let's look at Hebrews 4 to see what Hebrews 4 is talking about, as well.

First, Hebrews 3 comments about Israel who actually does keep Sabbath for years and years -- "they shall never enter my rest." So we have to examine more deeply into what sabbath-rest God commands.

Hebrews 4 introduces a very different sabbath-rest, the rest of "Today", a sabbath designated again (4:7) because the seventh day did not bring people into rest.

This is the sabbath rest that is left (Greek: abandoned, left-alone) for Christians to enter into (4:9). Joshua's time (4:8) did not fulfil it (Greek for "Joshua" is "Jesus").

 

[heymikey80]

Which law needs to be done in order for one to be guilty of the "whole" law?

I think Romans 3:10 would be this. But of course it's already done. Why do you ask?

 

[RND]

I think Romans 3:10 would be this. But of course it's already done. Why do you ask?

Paul quoting David in the Psalms is very important to understanding what is being discussed. The "whole law" is referring to the Mosaic law, not the Moral law which is the Ten Commandments. What judges whether one is a sinner or not? Which is a witness against the sinner? Which is contrary to the sinner?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Paul quoting David in the Psalms is very important to understanding what is being discussed. The "whole law" is referring to the Mosaic law, not the Moral law which is the Ten Commandments. What judges whether one is a sinner or not? Which is a witness against the sinner? Which is contrary to the sinner?

I frequently encounter references to the "Moral Law" from my legalistic friends. However, when I ask them to cite relevant passages defining the "Moral Law" in scripture, they are at a complete loss. They impose their own interpretations to divide the Law into sections which they believe they can fulfill, but ignore those sections which they find either distasteful or impossible to fulfill. Even at that, I have not encounted one who does not flee to the Ten Commandments and claim that they constitute the essence of the Moral Law. Nevertheless, none of these individuals has yet been able to honestly tell me that the love the Lord with all their heart and soul. If they did assert (as a few have done) they are guilty of breaking the commandment to not lie.

 

[visionary]

I frequently encounter references to the "Moral Law" from my legalistic friends. However, when I ask them to cite relevant passages defining the "Moral Law" in scripture, they are at a complete loss. They impose their own interpretations to divide the Law into sections which they believe they can fulfill, but ignore those sections which they find either distasteful or impossible to fulfill. Even at that, I have not encounted one who does not flee to the Ten Commandments and claim that they constitute the essence of the Moral Law. Nevertheless, none of these individuals has yet been able to honestly tell me that the love the Lord with all their heart and soul. If they did assert (as a few have done) they are guilty of breaking the commandment to not lie.

But you can not do any better.. for we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.. Go and sin no more ... now that is what God wants.

 

[RND]

I frequently encounter references to the "Moral Law" from my legalistic friends.

Was Jesus being "legalistic" when He quoted the "moral law?"

However, when I ask them to cite relevant passages defining the "Moral Law" in scripture, they are at a complete loss.

Exodus 20:1-20

They impose their own interpretations to divide the Law into sections which they believe they can fulfill, but ignore those sections which they find either distasteful or impossible to fulfill. Even at that, I have not encounted one who does not flee to the Ten Commandments and claim that they constitute the essence of the Moral Law.

That's a shame isn't?

Nevertheless, none of these individuals has yet been able to honestly tell me that the love the Lord with all their heart and soul.

Without the Holy Spirit I would say that's most likely.

If they did assert (as a few have done) they are guilty of breaking the commandment to not lie.

According to the scriptures we've all broken at least one.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Did anyone involved in this thread ever establish the NEED for Christians,
saved by faith in Jesus Christ under the new covenant, to observe and
keep the "sabbath" day as given to Israel at Sinai?


Another way to put this is - WHY would Christians need to or be required
to keep a day of rest as given to Israel when they came up ouyt of Egypt?

What would be the point ?

GE:
The NT is FULL of such 'reason'. It can be summarised:
1) Because of Jesus Christ, meaning He is the full ony and exclusive 'meaning' the Sabbath receives in the NT.
2) Because of the People of God and their Congregation and worship of Christ on earth in earthly circumstance and time.
3) Through these two principles being brought together in the resurrection of Christ from the dead, which is seen in both verses 8 and 10 before and after verse 9 in Hb4, as well as in "God (who) thus concerning the Seventh Day spake --- in these last days --- in the Son, Hb4:4-5 and Hb1.
Christians need no Law on Stone however Holy and Good for their "Sabbaths' Feast" (Col2:12-19); they stand in need of the Law of God in fact nailed to the Cross ---- that Law of God that "You - men - crucified", but, "God, raised from the dead".

 

[Bouke285]

[SIZE=+0]1 Cor 14:33 [/SIZE][SIZE=+0]For God is not [the author] of [SIZE=+1]confusion[/SIZE] but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.[/SIZE]

 

[visionary]

Then what exactly does the lawless one do to get such a title?

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Should Christians keep the seventh day Sabbath holy?

Are we being deceived by not remembering the Sabbath?

The Bible says that the New Covenant will have two aspects. One, God forgives us of our sins, which are the violations of the law, which include the forth commandment. 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Two, God will write His law on our hearts.

We know from Scripture that keeping of the Ten Commandments saves no one, but rather, they point out our need for a Savior. It's God's grace that saves us.

This tells me that we don't keep the commandmends to get saved, but rather, once we are saved we will keep them because we love God and neighbor.

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Shall we break the law of God because we are now saved?

God tells us that the keeping of the law is motivated by love for God and love for neighbor.

Matthew 22:36-40 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?'' Jesus said to him, " `You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' "This is the first and great commandment. "And the second is like it: `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.''

How we love God and neighbor is defined in the Ten Commandments.

The first four teach us what pleases God and the last six teaches us what will please others.

How does God write these two aspects of the law on our hearts.

Under the Old Covenant they were commanded to keep the commandments or die.

Under the New Covenant we are free from that fearful aspect of death for not keeping the law and are now under grace, in other words, God frees us from the law and its penalty so that we now are free to obey or not obey without fear. This will open us up to obey God from the heart.

Ephesians 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart,

Look at it this way. Lets say a guy hires a maid, she comes to his house twice a week. The guy puts up a list of chores for her to do, which entail, laundry, dishes, cooking and cleaning. If she does not do these things she will risk the chance of being fired. As she begins to work for him, several months go by when they begin to fall in love and get married. The first thing she does when she comes home from her wedding is she removes the list of chores. Does this mean she will no longer do these things? No, it means she does not need the list to tell her what to do because she loves her husband.

God takes away the law so that we can keep the law because we love Him. If I saw that maid doing all the house work for free I would have to ask why she was doing it. Her response would be, because she Ioves him.

If someone asked me why I was keeping the Sabbath, since we are no longer under the law but under grace, I wound have to say, because I love Him.

The Ten Commandments have not been done away with, we just have a different relationship to them now. They go from being written on stone to being written on our heart through freedom and love.

Listen to how the Ten Commandments are referred to by Paul.

Ephesians 6:2 "Honor your father and mother,'' which is the first commandment with promise:
Exodus 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

Listen to how Jesus refers back to them.

Luke 18:18-21 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?'' So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. "You know the commandments: `Do not commit adultery,' `Do not murder,' `Do not steal,' `Do not bear false witness,' `Honor your father and your mother.' '' And he said, "All these I have kept from my youth.''

Jesus was even concerned about the Sabbath forty years after His resurrection.

Matthew 24:16-20 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. "Let him who is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house. "And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those with nursing babies in those days! "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

Jesus even said He was Lord of the Sabbath and how the Sabbath was made for man.

These are not words that do away with the law or the Sabbath, but rather, confirm the Sabbath and the law.

What are your thoughts?

I totally agree

 

[visionary]

Believers..

Psalm 1:2
But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night.

Psalm 119:174
I long for your salvation, O LORD, and your law is my delight.

Romans 7:22
For in my inner being I delight in God's law;

 

[theresistance]

Should Christians keep the seventh day Sabbath holy?

Are we being deceived by not remembering the Sabbath?

The Bible says that the New Covenant will have two aspects. One, God forgives us of our sins, which are the violations of the law, which include the forth commandment. 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Two, God will write His law on our hearts.

We know from Scripture that keeping of the Ten Commandments saves no one, but rather, they point out our need for a Savior. It's God's grace that saves us.

This tells me that we don't keep the commandmends to get saved, but rather, once we are saved we will keep them because we love God and neighbor.

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Shall we break the law of God because we are now saved?

God tells us that the keeping of the law is motivated by love for God and love for neighbor.

Matthew 22:36-40 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?'' Jesus said to him, " `You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' "This is the first and great commandment. "And the second is like it: `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.''

How we love God and neighbor is defined in the Ten Commandments.

The first four teach us what pleases God and the last six teaches us what will please others.

How does God write these two aspects of the law on our hearts.

Under the Old Covenant they were commanded to keep the commandments or die.

Under the New Covenant we are free from that fearful aspect of death for not keeping the law and are now under grace, in other words, God frees us from the law and its penalty so that we now are free to obey or not obey without fear. This will open us up to obey God from the heart.

Ephesians 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart,

Look at it this way. Lets say a guy hires a maid, she comes to his house twice a week. The guy puts up a list of chores for her to do, which entail, laundry, dishes, cooking and cleaning. If she does not do these things she will risk the chance of being fired. As she begins to work for him, several months go by when they begin to fall in love and get married. The first thing she does when she comes home from her wedding is she removes the list of chores. Does this mean she will no longer do these things? No, it means she does not need the list to tell her what to do because she loves her husband.

God takes away the law so that we can keep the law because we love Him. If I saw that maid doing all the house work for free I would have to ask why she was doing it. Her response would be, because she Ioves him.

If someone asked me why I was keeping the Sabbath, since we are no longer under the law but under grace, I wound have to say, because I love Him.

The Ten Commandments have not been done away with, we just have a different relationship to them now. They go from being written on stone to being written on our heart through freedom and love.

Listen to how the Ten Commandments are referred to by Paul.

Ephesians 6:2 "Honor your father and mother,'' which is the first commandment with promise:
Exodus 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

Listen to how Jesus refers back to them.

Luke 18:18-21 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?'' So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. "You know the commandments: `Do not commit adultery,' `Do not murder,' `Do not steal,' `Do not bear false witness,' `Honor your father and your mother.' '' And he said, "All these I have kept from my youth.''

Jesus was even concerned about the Sabbath forty years after His resurrection.

Matthew 24:16-20 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. "Let him who is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house. "And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those with nursing babies in those days! "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

Jesus even said He was Lord of the Sabbath and how the Sabbath was made for man.

These are not words that do away with the law or the Sabbath, but rather, confirm the Sabbath and the law.

What are your thoughts?

As the scriptures say, the gospel first began to be published on Sunday. That is why church meetings are usually held on Sundays.
Matthew 28

1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
2And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
3His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
4And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
5And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
6He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
7And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.
8And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.

 

[visionary]

The Jews would have thrown a hissy fit and the gospel and the later letters would be in full bloom over not circumcision but sunday keeping... clearly not seen. It is a stretch of imagination to think that the minor pulls on scripture to cover sunday is all that is necessary for it to be true.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

what is the passage about doing the whole law

if one super small part of the law is not done one is guilty of all the law

Which law needs to be done in order for one to be guilty of the "whole" law?

do you not understand? my writing?

 

[KM Richards]

Should Christians keep the seventh day Sabbath holy?

I think Christians ought to keep ALL days holy and dedicate every day for living unto Jesus first, and above all else endevor to follow God's Word and grow daily in His Grace.

For me, this ends this debate once and for all