Physical Healing in the Atonement (PHIA)

[christianmomof3]

there were many Saints who suffered a lot during their lives, because they accepted suffering as a cross they carried for Christ..

That is true.
What do the PHIA people think of the martryrs?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I don't think that we use the suffering to understand Christ, but He, who works all things together for good, uses the sufferings to help us gain more of Him and to grow more in Him.

I agree that God uses suffering to help us grow, and I also believe that we can use suffering to understand Him better. I'll give an example... from my own life. I used to struggle with feelings of loneliness and depression, for whatever reason. I think there was a lot I had to deal with from my past and God was healing me of it. But.. He didn't do this at once. And what happened, is during that time, I realized what He means to me and how loving He is if I hadn't felt lonely I wouldn't have reached out to Him like I did?

Luke was a doctor. If Christ did away with sickness, then why didn't Luke declare that his former job was useless and tell everyone to be healed by faith?

Why was sickness still mentioned in the New Testament by Paul? Why didn't he tell Timothy to be healed by faith?

1 Tim 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

I do believe that the Lord does heal some people physically. But, I do not believe that He does so for everyone and I think it is according to His will who He choses to heal.

I agree

 

[MoNiCa4316]

That is true.
What do the PHIA people think of the martryrs?

I have the same question

 

[pinetree]

But He didn't suffer with sickness and disease.

Well that is a fair statement....

Now,without going to far off track,if he was familiar with our human condition,so He could sympathize with our weakneses,he may have had a time of sickness...

But,being who he was,I tend to doubt that..

But history shows that through the ages,until now,there have been countless saints,that have died of dseases..

Suffering is suffering..is suffering gone? Even though one is saved?

So if the slavation 1/2 half of the atonement was met,by the saved person,why not the other?

Would God make it tricky?

Ps,i believe in healings..

But in Gods timing,and IF he chooses to..

 

[MoNiCa4316]

God can be glorified either way.

 

[pinetree]

God can be glorified either way.

so true...

 

[spiritman]

Well that is a fair statement....

Now,without going to far off track,if he was familiar with our human condition,so He could sympathize with our weakneses,he may have had a time of sickness...

But,being who he was,I tend to doubt that..

But history shows that through the ages,until now,there have been countless saints,that have died of dseases..

Suffering is suffering..is suffering gone? Even though one is saved?

So if the slavation 1/2 half of the atonement was met,by the saved person,why not the other?

Would God make it tricky?

Ps,i believe in healings..

But in Gods timing,and IF he chooses to..

I'm glad you believe in healing. Unfortunately, many do not. I believe that He has already chosen to heal us and that His timing is now. There are many examples from scripture of people being healed because of their faith.

Mt 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

There are many reasons why some are healed and others not. Because some do and some don't, some will and some won't, is not sufficient proof to say that its not God's will to heal everyone. God is love and He desires all of His children to be in health.

Mr 1:41 And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.

Peace

 

[pinetree]

I'm glad you believe in healing. Unfortunately, many do not. I believe that He has already chosen to heal us and that His timing is now. There are many examples from scripture of people being healed because of their faith.

Mt 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

There are many reasons why some are healed and others not. Because some do and some don't, some will and some won't, is not sufficient proof to say that its not God's will to heal everyone. God is love and He desires all of His children to be in health.

Mr 1:41 And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.

Peace

Hello..

What do you think the reasons some are not then?

if His timing is now..

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I do believe in miracles and healings. I've seen some amazing things happen, and some amazing things have happened to me!! But I also believe that it's not always God's will to grant them.
This does not make God any less loving.
Jesus shared in our suffering out of love for us, that is even greater than if He had simply taken it away.
He WILL take it away one day, but here on earth it can really help us in our sanctification...
the way of the cross is the surest way to being sanctified by Christ. He said, we must pick up our crosses and follow Him. And when things get really bad, that helps us to learn how to trust God and how to love Him regardless of feelings/circumstances this is how He has loved us.

I think the lives of the Saints illustrate this beautifully. One can not say that they didn't have enough faith. Their faith could heal others. But they freely accepted suffering for themselves, because they wanted to share in Christ's suffering, and to offer their trials to God as a prayer for souls...for the conversion of sinners.

I love people like St. Therese of Lisieux, seriously they are such amazing role models for us, of how Christians should live
what's interesting about them is that they welcomed suffering. These are really saintly people.

"She acquired the habit of greeting painful and repugnant things with a smile. "I have always forced myself to love suffering and to welcome it joyfully." [my comment: Apostle Paul talked about rejoicing in trials ]
"Little crosses give me more joy than anything else" "Can a victim of love find anything her Spouse sends terrible?" "Every moment He sends what I can bear and no more; [my comment: when we accept suffering in our lives, this shows trust in God and a reliance on Him] He increases my strength to meet my pain. I am too little to ask for greater suffering; having chosen it myself, I should have to bear it myself, and I have never been able to do anything by myself".

In these dispositions she was able to endure the intense sufferings of her last days without losing patience and even with supernatural joy. "My sufferings are very intense indeed, yet nevertheless I am extraordinarily at peace. All my desires are realized and I am full of confidence"
One night the infirmarian found her awake, gazing toward Heaven. "what are you doing? you ought to be trying to sleep"
"I can't, Sister, I am suffering too much for that, so I pray"'
"what do you say to Jesus?"
"Nothing, I just love Him."
She even found in her suffering proof of God's goodness. "How very good God must be," she said, "to give me strength to bear all I endure".

She was fully prepared for whatever form her last agony might take: "if at the last I suffer greatly, with no indication of peace, do not worry, Mother; Our Lord Himself surely died a victim to love, yet who can measure His agony?" the day before she died she told her sister Celine, "Love alone counts".
At half past two on September 30, she told Mother Agnes, "the chalice, Mother, is full to overflowing. I could not have believed one could bear so much and can explain it only by my great desire to save souls. Thy will be done, My God, but have mercy on me; sweet Virgin Mary, aid me".
She went on to say, "All I have written about my thirst for suffering is quite true; I do not regret surrendering myself to Love"

At a few moments past seven, when she knew the end had come, she said calmly "I do not wish to suffer less. Oh, how I love Him! My God, I love Thee". Gazing beyond the statue of Mary beside her bed, her eyes alight with a supernatural joy, she died."
(Story of a Soul)

 

[ARBITER01]

What do we do with this passage?
Or the concept that the devil seeks to kill, steak and destroy,
but God sent Jesus that we might have life?
Or the passages that say if we lay hands on the sick,
they will be healed etc?

I do believe those things, don't you?

Healing was always a part of GOD. Prophets in the OT healed people through the same gifts that Jesus operated in and we are suppose to operate in.

Healing didn't just happen because Jesus rose from the grave, it's always been around, it was just limited to the prophets in the OT, but not anymore thanks to GOD.

 

[sunlover1]

That is true.
What do the PHIA people think of the martryrs?

I don't think I'd qualify for an PHIA person, but I dont understand
what martyrdom has to do with believing that God heals.

Well that is a fair statement....

Now,without going to far off track,if he was familiar with our human condition,so He could sympathize with our weakneses,he may have had a time of sickness...

But,being who he was,I tend to doubt that..

That is a very interesting thought.

But history shows that through the ages,until now,there have been countless saints,that have died of dseases..

Amen, but does that mean that God wouldnt heal them?
Or maybe it was their appointed time to pass from this world?

Suffering is suffering..is suffering gone? Even though one is saved?

Much of our suffering is brought on by ourselves too.
Do you believe that it's the Father's will that we suffer?

God can be glorified either way.

He can!!

 

[spiritman]

Hello..

What do you think the reasons some are not then?

if His timing is now..

Basically summed up, sin and lack of faith.

Sin.

Deu 28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.
61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

I Cor 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

No faith.

Mr 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

Not believing in this:

Ga 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Peace

 

[pinetree]

Basically summed up, sin and lack of faith.

Sin.

Deu 28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.
61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

I Cor 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

No faith.

Mr 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

Not believing in this:

Ga 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Peace

if faith comes by grace..

then how could it be the fault of the Christian?

I can only have what God gives...

Romans 4:16
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

I can only have the portion God gives..so it cant be what you said..

Romans 12:6
We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.


I can only have the portion God gives..

sin....we all have that...:o

so that cant be the reason,or no one would be healed for that matter..

I dont here any mercy in your reply..sorry,I just dont..

 

[christianmomof3]

Basically summed up, sin and lack of faith.

That is what I think is so horribly judgemental about the whole phia thing.

They think that anyone who suffers does so due to sin and lack of faith or else they would not suffer and be healed of any injury or illness. That would include martryrs because they often suffered a lot before they died. So, do the phia people think that those who have been martryred had too much sin and a lack of faith?

Apparantly they think that all people who suffer any illness and injury have too much sin and a lack of faith.

As was stated, we all have sin and faith is a gift from God.
We cannot make ourselves have more faith so that we will be healed.

Illness and injury are a result of the fall - of sin coming into the world.

They are not indicators that all individuals who suffer are faithless overt sinners who do not repent.

They just happen.

God can and does heal many illnesses and injuries.
But, He does not chose to heal all.
And that is according to His purposes - not to show that He won't heal people who don't have enough faith or who sin too much.

2 Cor. 1:5 For even as the sufferings of the Christ abound unto us, so through the Christ our comfort also abounds.
6 But whether we are afflicted, it is for your comforting and salvation; or whether we are comforted, it is for your comforting, which operates in the endurance of the same sufferings which we also suffer.
7 And our hope for you is firm, knowing that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you are of the comfort.
8 For we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of our affliction which befell us in Asia, that we were excessively burdened, beyond our power, so that we despaired even of living.
9 Indeed we ourselves had the response of death in ourselves, that we should not base our confidence on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead;

Col. 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings on your behalf and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for His Body, which is the church;

 

[pinetree]

That is what I think is so horribly judgemental about the whole phia thing.

They think that anyone who suffers does so due to sin and lack of faith or else they would not suffer and be healed of any injury or illness. That would include martryrs because they often suffered a lot before they died. So, do the phia people think that those who have been martryred had too much sin and a lack of faith?

Apparantly they think that all people who suffer any illness and injury have too much sin and a lack of faith.

As was stated, we all have sin and faith is a gift from God.
We cannot make ourselves have more faith so that we will be healed.

Illness and injury are a result of the fall - of sin coming into the world.

They are not indicators that all individuals who suffer are faithless overt sinners who do not repent.

They just happen.

God can and does heal many illnesses and injuries.
But, He does not chose to heal all.
And that is according to His purposes - not to show that He won't heal people who don't have enough faith or who sin too much.

2 Cor. 1:5 For even as the sufferings of the Christ abound unto us, so through the Christ our comfort also abounds.
6 But whether we are afflicted, it is for your comforting and salvation; or whether we are comforted, it is for your comforting, which operates in the endurance of the same sufferings which we also suffer.
7 And our hope for you is firm, knowing that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you are of the comfort.
8 For we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of our affliction which befell us in Asia, that we were excessively burdened, beyond our power, so that we despaired even of living.
9 Indeed we ourselves had the response of death in ourselves, that we should not base our confidence on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead;

Col. 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings on your behalf and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for His Body, which is the church;

I totally agree..

it sets up a harsh system..

really it is a form of legalism..:o

it says "you must be,or do this way"..in order to receive..

therefore the outcome is earned..

that is not grace.

 

[pinetree]

I don't think I'd qualify for an PHIA person, but I dont understand
what martyrdom has to do with believing that God heals.


That is a very interesting thought.



Amen, but does that mean that God wouldnt heal them?
Or maybe it was their appointed time to pass from this world?


Much of our suffering is brought on by ourselves too.
Do you believe that it's the Father's will that we suffer?


He can!!

Hi

it seems to be an issue of absolutes,that causes the trouble,in the phia issue.

Thanks.

 

[sunlover1]

if faith comes by grace..

then how could it be the fault of the Christian?

Hafta ask God that, because He gave the same answer.

I can only have the portion God gives..so it cant be what you said..

You mean it can't be what God said, because he was only
repeating what He'd heard Jesus said.

..and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.
19 He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation,
how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?
bring him unto me.

And you know, if you just read this one account, it explains
several things. For one thing, Jesus said the man who was
deaf and mute could only be healed (delivered) by prayer
and fasting. Maybe that's why some arent healed?
And as we see above, He did call them faithless. I also
thought it was interesting that the deaf and mute man's
condition was attributed to an evil spirit. A house divided
against itself cannot stand. The evil spirit was the cause of
the infirmity, and the faith was the remedy (according to
Jesus anyhow).. Here's the story so you can check :

17 And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit; 18 And wheresoever he taketh him, he tearethb him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not. 19 He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me. 20 And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming. 21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child. 22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us. 23 † Jesus said unto him,
If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.


24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. 25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him. 26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead. 27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose. 28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out? 29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

sin....we all have that...:o

so that cant be the reason,or no one would be healed for that matter..

I dont here any mercy in your reply..sorry,I just dont..

But you didnt address the passages that he posted.
That's what you ought to search, God's Words to us.
God's the one who caused it to be said that:

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick,
and the Lord shall raise him up...

I totally agree..

it sets up a harsh system..

really it is a form of legalism..:o

it says "you must be,or do this way"..in order to receive..

therefore the outcome is earned..

that is not grace.

It's not spirit man's system.
God's the one who said anything is possible ... but
HE added the condition "to him who believes".

And besides, I think it's such a small thing to ask,
that we believe. Do I have the faith needed for
healings? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If I LACK
that faith needed, what should I do?

Jesus didnt feel it was unmerciful to tell them to their
face that it was their total lack that caused their lack
of success with the different cases they were called on
to heal/deliver.
He told them face to face, Hey, you're faithless and perverse.
Jesus is love, and those were His words.
Would He say the same thing to us?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And besides, I think it's such a small thing to ask,
that we believe. Do I have the faith needed for
healings? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If I LACK
that faith needed, what should I do?

Greetings Sun. Don't ever mention that again!!!!
Remember what JESUS told His Disciples concerning the Fig-tree?

Matthew 21:19 And seeing a fig-tree/sukhn <4808>, one, upon the way, He came upon her and nothing found in her, except leaves/fulla <5444> only, and He is saying to her "no still out of fruit may be becoming into the age". And is Withered instantly the fig-tree .

Revelation 22:2 in midst of the broad-place of Her, and of the river hence and hence, a wood/tree of life, doing fruits, twelve, according to month each rendering the fruit of it , and the leaves/fulla <5444> of the wood/xulou <3586> into Healing of the nations;

Ezekiel 47:12 And on the river, he shall grow up on bank of him from this and from this every of tree for food, not shall decay leaf of him and not he shall come to end fruit of him, for months of him he shall make firstfruit, that waters of him from the sanctuary they are going forth, and becomes fruit of him for food and leaf of him for Healing [Genesis 2:8/Revelation 22:2]

 

[sunlover1]

Hi

it seems to be an issue of absolutes,that causes the trouble,in the phia issue.

Thanks.

I understand.
As I said before, I dont know about that PHIA,
but I do believe all good comes from God and
that all bad comes from the devil.
I do believe that He does and will heal us IF we
have faith.. and I have to believe this
'absolutely' because if I waver at all, the faith
is lacking. I need to believe 100% that Father
will do as He said He will do if we have faith.

Concering what you said about faith, God does
give to each man the measure of faith, but isnt
it up to us to walk in that faith?

imo
sunlover

 

[simonthezealot]

I do believe that He does and will heal us IF we
have faith.. and I have to believe this
'absolutely' because if I waver at all, the faith
is lacking.

For clarity though you aren't suggesting not being healed shows a lack of faith are you?
Because if anyone has enough faith unto salvation clearly they have enough to be healed and whether or not your healed is not based on a level of faith. Right?