Should scientists demand evolution is taught in churches?

[jcook922]

C'mon now. Humanism is the exclusive ideology of our school system. Nothing else is allowed to equal it.



And that sounds like the people that signed the Humanist Manifesto to a tee. Pompous doesn't begin to describe the arrogance and elitism.



What proof of that do you have? I see humanism as very much a plagarism of all of the greatest thoughts of Christian culture.



There is no way really, to divorce our belief systems from our desires for society to behave. Humanists are a perfect example. Why, is "secularism" better than Gospel reality? The Gospel, applied for real, ends all wars with just one individual. Retribution does not exist in the Gospel.



Why not? If the country is run as a republic or as a democracy, the majority voice is going to take influence. That is precisely how and why Humanism is spread the way it is. Mold minds and you hold power.

Why are you so convinced that everything good and moral in this world comes from Christianity? Your failure is that you seem to think anything good and just is a result of your faith, which is absolutely and utterly incorrect. While many positive things are a result of Christianity, not all of them are.

 

[LittleNipper]

This is correlation without causation, pure and simple. You believe Christianity to be a force for good, therefore you tend to associate good in the world with Christianity. But belief is not fact.

India has increased in Christianity, but they have also increased availability and quality of health care, access to clean food and water, improved education, etc. All of these contribute far more to India's success than the rise of Christianity.

The latest census of religious belief in India shows 80% Hindu, 13% Islam, and only 2% Christianity.

Well, if Christianity is not good, how good can the Declaration or the Constitution be? They were written pretty much by and for a then "Christian" society. Obviously, not everyone was then a Christian or saved, but most if not all had some understanding of the Bible and many applied that to how they tried to live their lives. India has reacted to outside influences and not internal ones. They are not better because of their Hinduism. They are better because most "Christian" ethics have shamed the abuses of their own once accepted norms. They want to live like Americans. American ideals have alot to do with "Christian" values and ideals and not those of either Islam or Hindu. Community education, orphanages, hospitals, etc., are ALL offshoots of "Christian" endeavors and not thousands of years of Hindu "virtue/ideals." The India that the British invaded WAS. If one was rich, Hinduism was great. If one was poor ------- Hinduism say it's ALL YOUR FAULT and next time you may have a better life.

 

[RyanLeeParis]

You can't demand people to do anything. People believe what they believe - it's their choice. Evolution could have as much physical proof as gravity; people still don't have to believe it.

 

[cantata]

You can't demand people to do anything. People believe what they believe - it's their choice. Evolution could have as much physical proof as gravity; people still don't have to believe it.

You can't demand that people believe things, but contrary to your initial statement, you can surely demand that they do things.

(And by the way, you could demand that they do things in order that they might believe things. That's what compulsory education is about. We demand that children do something - go to school - in order that they might believe things - Pythagorus' theorem, what happened during the Second World War, where China is, &c.)

 

[quatona]

Or should they stay out of things that have nothing to do with them?

Discuss

I think they should insist that - if evolution theory is taught in churches, sunday schools etc.) it is taught accurately.
To tell from many posts of Christians here, what their religious institutions have taught them about evolution theory is more like a caricature of it.

 

[LittleNipper]

I think they should insist that - if evolution theory is taught in churches, sunday schools etc.) it is taught accurately.
To tell from many posts of Christians here, what their religious institutions have taught them about evolution theory is more like a caricature of it.

The reality is that most "Christians" very likely attended public schools. If they are then totally confused, who or what is to blame?

 

[stan1980]

The reality is that most "Christians" very likely attended public schools. If they are then totally confused, who or what is to blame?

The bible is to blame for false information. Wasn't the earth described as a disc in the bible too? Surely God would know earth is a sphere?

 

[LittleNipper]

The bible is to blame for false information. Wasn't the earth described as a disc in the bible too? Surely God would know earth is a sphere?

You would have me believe that there is no GOD. Evolutionists would have everyone ignore any GOD factor in their formulas. So exactly how correct can they be? This is what it comes down to. Whom should we believe? The Bible says that GOD hung the circle of the earth on nothing. It doesn't say the earth is held up by Atlas nor rides on the back of a turtle... Look at ALL the data.

 

[Holy Roller]

Poly, I don't really mind the rest of the rubbish you spout, but can you please drop the whole 0 x 0 non-sequitur? I'm a professional mathematician, and that makes my teeth itch almost as much as people who bring in Godel to apply to anything except formal mathematical systems. Not only does that particular consequence of the real number system being a ring not say anything about the origins of the universe, but there are plenty of mathematical multiplication operands where you can multiply two non-zero objects and get zero (such as scalar multiplication of vectors).

Your teeth itch when someone brings in informalities to mathematical equations?

 

[Holy Roller]

except evolution has evidence and ID doesn't. ID and evolution are incompatible, what does ID have to say most of the time? "evolution is impossible!"
that's it.
how can something that bases itself on tearing down science be called science, yet never shows how its the answer?

ID has its answer in the inexplicabilities of evolution theory.
Evolution theory, for example, can't explain (or even lay down some kind of heuristic framework) how the proteins that code for the flagellum evolved into being. Evolution doesn't even have a model for this.
Also, and I know it's thought of as being outside the realm of evolution theory, but ID seeks to explain how DNA emerged in the first place. In spite of many intelligent minds working on the problem, there just isn't an explination, hypothesis or model that can explain away abiogenesis. ID does.

 

[SiderealExalt]

You would have me believe that there is no GOD.

It's been my experience that only rarely do supernaturalists disavow themselves of their delusions. Hardly a statistical accuracy, but a general statement of my view on that matter. So I don't really know how hard the person you are addressing is trying on that matter.

Evolutionists would have everyone ignore any GOD factor in their formulas.

I'm still waiting for Christians to show what an "evolutionist" is. I think it's just a petty buzz word. Anywho, false situation. There is no scientific "God factor" so claiming biologists ignore said factor in the course of their studies is nonsensical.

. So exactly how correct can they be? This is what it comes down to.

Lets see, to my left I see reams of compiled data, tested, retested, tested umpteen times, built on previously gained knowledge, and continually altered as new information provides increasing accuracy and information to biology as a whole. On my right I see the ancient writings of superstitious people. Hmm..this is a tough choice.

Whom should we believe? The Bible says that GOD hung the circle of the earth on nothing. It doesn't say the earth is held up by Atlas nor rides on the back of a turtle... Look at ALL the data.

I try to, though I'm just a laymen. Interestingly enough, the data doesn't point us towards Greek mythology, Judeo/Islamic/Christian mythology or to any other religion.

I find this interesting if unsurprising.

 

[Holy Roller]

You would have me believe that there is no GOD. Evolutionists would have everyone ignore any GOD factor in their formulas. So exactly how correct can they be? This is what it comes down to. Whom should we believe? The Bible says that GOD hung the circle of the earth on nothing. It doesn't say the earth is held up by Atlas nor rides on the back of a turtle... Look at ALL the data.

I agree. First Stan1980 makes an allegation about what's in the Bible, then admits to cluelessness by asking a question about what's in the Bible.

 

[SiderealExalt]

ID has its answer in the inexplicabilities of evolution theory.
Evolution theory, for example, can't explain (or even lay down some kind of heuristic framework) how the proteins that code for the flagellum evolved into being. Evolution doesn't even have a model for this.

A saw a youtube video not too long ago, ironically of a Catholic scientist. He was talking at a university to some people about the false claims of Creationism, and talking about his involvement with a variety of court cases where Creationists unsuccesfully tried to get ID into classrooms. In one example, in a debate, a Creationist claimed what you are claiming now. A scientist on the other side of it successfully showed how that claim was false.

I find it unsurprisingly when Creationists continue to bring up false claims. Hell I find ones that even try to bring up the whole thermodynamics stuff. It's sad really...

Also, and I know it's thought of as being outside the realm of evolution theory, but ID seeks to explain how DNA emerged in the first place. In spite of many intelligent minds working on the problem, there just isn't an explination, hypothesis or model that can explain away abiogenesis. ID does.

Actually all ID does is go "Goddidit" then we watch Creationists stick their fingers in their ears and go nah nah nah not listening when people ask for empirical evidence or anything even remotely there of.

Besides, we REALLY know that the flying spaghetti monster created life on earth. Get with the program.

 

[BlackSabb]

Or should they stay out of things that have nothing to do with them?

Discuss

I personally believe that the history of the earth/universe/humans should not be taught at all in public schools-period!

Neither evolution nor creationism nor "intelligent design" nor any other theory. Because no doctrine of the origins of mankind and the universe can be proven. Scientists can no more prove evolution than Christians can prove creationism. I think it's folly to teach anything as fact that is nothing more than unproven theory.

In the end, it all comes down to personal faith-nothing more and nothing less. Faith in its very essence means that it is not proven, but believed. It can be argued that there is evidence for you faith, whether evolution, creationism or other, but undeniable proof is mutually exclusive of "faith". Evolution is a faith like any other that is being paraded as scientific proof. It may have a scientific basis, but in the end lacks hard proof, so it falls into the category of faith and belief.

Just look at how scientists can get it so very wrong on such simple matters. Like the size of a "planet". As most of you know, scientists have only recently discovered that Pluto is much smaller than originally estimated, and it is no longer classified as a planet. This involves nothing more than simple measurements of a body in space, one that is in existance, not one that was once known to have existed. If this is how scientists can get it so wrong on the simple case of measuring a star's size, one that is out there today, how can I put my faith in what they tell me happened millions and billions of years ago?

Common sense tells you that when scientists say this and that occurred millions/billions/trillions etc of years ago, it is pure speculation. It may be scientific speculation, but speculation nevertheless.

Leave the speculations and theories of how man and the universe was formed out of public schools. Religious or secular. This is my opinion.

 

[stan1980]

Thing is with evolution, is there are millions of pieces of evidence that support the theory of evolution, which makes evolution scientific fact. To say we should ignore it, is bordering on insane. If it weren't for science, we'd still think the earth was flat and the sun and the stars rotate around the earth.

If you believe a book of superstitions and fables over the evidence that science has produced, then so be it, but I think it makes you look rather silly. I'd suggest you do some reading on evolution.

Note, the chronological order from A to N, that maps the small changes of the primate skull. There is much more evidence like this that cover many species, that would all seem to back up the theory of evolution.

 

[SiderealExalt]

I personally believe that the history of the earth/universe/humans should not be taught at all in public schools-period!

So you want to pull science courses out of schools? Yeah..that makes no sense.

Neither evolution nor creationism nor "intelligent design" nor any other theory. Because no doctrine of the origins of mankind and the universe can be proven.

Actually evolution is a scientific theory, creationism and ID are the same thing btw, and you are showing you have no idea what a "scientific theory" is.

Scientists can no more prove evolution than Christians can prove creationism. I think it's folly to teach anything as fact that is nothing more than unproven theory.

Scientists can no more prove evolution than Christians can prove creationism. I think it's folly to teach anything as fact that is nothing more than unproven theory.

Why don't you go take a basic science class and find out what a scientific theory is.

 

[Sockroteez]

Or should they stay out of things that have nothing to do with them?

Discuss

It would only be the Government that would ever be able to try to do as such. Many scientists opposes religion, but I'd suspect that very few would care to make the effort to push any such thing... unless they also happen to Pastor a Church... but, in essence, scientists get more of a bad rap from religious folk than they deserve... after all it usually isn't science that is claiming to know the Truth with no observable evidence... it is religion.

 

[Paulos23]

You can't demand people to do anything. People believe what they believe - it's their choice. Evolution could have as much physical proof as gravity; people still don't have to believe it.

Funny we have a better understanding of the working of evolution then gravity.

 

[BlackSabb]

So you want to pull science courses out of schools? Yeah..that makes no sense.


Actually evolution is a scientific theory, creationism and ID are the same thing btw, and you are showing you have no idea what a "scientific theory" is.

Scientists can no more prove evolution than Christians can prove creationism. I think it's folly to teach anything as fact that is nothing more than unproven theory.



Why don't you go take a basic science class and find out what a scientific theory is.

Firstly, where did I say that I want to pull "all science out of schools?" That is an absurd reading of my post. The only thing that "makes no sense" is someone reading my post and coming up with that conclusion. Please stop being so melodramatic. When we study biology, for example, we don't say, "the theory of the kidney system". Okay? Because learning about the human body, or how the sun works, or physics etc is not a theory. It's fact. There's a big difference between a scientific fact and theory.

Secondly, I know what a scientific "theory" is. And therein lies the problem: It's a "theory" only. Why should anything be taught as a fact when it's a theory? Religious or secular. And to the other poster who said that "if I want to believe in fables, I can do but I will look silly", (creationism). Again, read my post properly before responding. Did I not clearly say to everyone here that I don't believe that evolution nor creationism should be taught? Did i not say that both are unproven and merely theories only?

I welcome replies. I don't welcome blatant misrepresentations of my posts, distortions, drama and exaggerations.

 

[SiderealExalt]

Firstly, where did I say that I want to pull "all science out of schools?" That is an absurd reading of my post. The only thing that "makes no sense" is someone reading my post and coming up with that conclusion.

I personally believe that the history of the earth/universe/humans should not be taught at all in public schools-period!

That would include geology as well as history. So yes, you are advocating it. If you're not, then don't advocate taking such subjects out of schools.

When we study biology, for example, we don't say, "the theory of the kidney system". Okay? Because learning about the human body, or how the sun works, or physics etc is not a theory. It's fact. There's a big difference between a scientific fact and theory.

Nice non seq. Anywho, again you're showing you don't know what a scientific theory is.

Secondly, I know what a scientific "theory" is. And therein lies the problem: It's a "theory" only. Why should anything be taught as a fact when it's a theory? Religious or secular. And to the other poster who said that "if I want to believe in fables, I can do but I will look silly", (creationism). Again, read my post properly before responding. Did I not clearly say to everyone here that I don't believe that evolution nor creationism should be taught? Did i not say that both are unproven and merely theories only?

I welcome replies. I don't welcome blatant misrepresentations of my posts, distortions, drama and exaggerations.

No, and you're continually showing you have no clue what you are talking about. Try learning the difference.