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Should Christians oppose gay civil marriage?

Polycarp1

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There's your problem. You see the Bible as "God's Tech. Manual." That's not why (most of) it was written (some of Paul's letters and the Wisdom books to one side).

Key issue to me is, "What doth the Lordrequie of thee?" And the answer is to show His love and mercy, and call others to know Him, repent, and commit to following Him.

Repent is a funny word. It doesn't mean "stop sinning" -- it means to turn from a me-first attitude to one focused on what Christ wants me to be, (Change the pronoun to say 'what He wants each of us, individually, to be.')

Now that we've 'done' polygamy, social concerns, and 99 other off-topic excursions, look at the thread title: Should Christians oppose gay civil marriage?. That's what this thread is supposed to be discussing.

And my answer is, since I want the Lord to recognize my marriage for the important, precious part of my life that it is, I owe it to my fellows to recognize theirs as well. If you think it would be appropriate to ban Pentecostals from marrying each other, or to require that Christian "marriages" be called something else from the ones solemnized by a judge, then the Golden Rule should tell you how you should behave. And it's important to remember about the Golden Rule that, in the words of the old public service announcement, "it's not just a good idea, it's the Law."

God's grace and peace be with you.
 
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Dogbean

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Tackleberry, how do you know that every part of your Bible is the inspired word of God? For example, many learned scholars believe that 2 Peter is a forgery (see Bart Ehrman's Lost Christianities).
Have you seen my signature?

I am not an expert on the canon of Scripture and how they decided what books to put in the Bible. From wikipedia:


Many modern Protestants point to the following four "Criteria for Canonicity" to justify the selection of the books that have been included in the New Testament:
  1. Apostolic Origin — attributed to and based on the preaching/teaching of the first-generation apostles (or their close companions).
  2. Universal Acceptance — acknowledged by all major Christian communities in the ancient world (by the end of the fourth century).
  3. Liturgical Use — read publicly when early Christian communities gathered for the Lord's Supper (their weekly worship services).
  4. Consistent Message — containing a theological outlook similar or complementary to other accepted Christian writings.
The basic factor for recognizing a book's canonicity for the New Testament was divine inspiration, and the chief test for this was apostolicity. The term apostolic as used for the test of canonicity does not necessarily mean apostolic authorship or derivation, but rather apostolic authority. According to these Protestants[30], Apostolic authority is never detached from the authority of the Lord.
 
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BigBadWlf

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I do what I can to help PEOPLE. I don't believe in distinguishing between people who need help based on their sexuality. homosexuals and heterosexuals in need are equally deserving.
I do what I can. Thankyou.Of course I care about it. I suggest that I probably do at least as much about it as you do for persecuted minorities in other countries.*Doubletake* What are you doing for persecuted Christians in Iran that I'm not doing for persecuted homosexuals in Iran?And about 5% of the aid workers will be homosexual. Homosexuality is an orientation, not a charity organisation.again... homosexuality is NOT a "belief system" so criticising homosexuals for not treating other homosexuals as a religious group treats others is a bit like criticising brunettes for not treating other brunettes the same way as Budhists treat other Budhists... they really aren't comparable in that way, so I don't see why you want to force such a comparison.

There are homosexual Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Wiccans, etc, the same way there are blonde Christians, Hindus Muslims, Wiccans, whatever.I disagree, and I can find you any number of Biblical scholars who will disagree with you over the specifics of a translation on just about any "commandment". Just look at the discussion over "thou shalt not kill". I twist nothing, I simply try to appreciate the background and context in which things were written, and understand that the time and cultural norms are different, and that MUST be taken into account.Easy, but not necesarily correct. What you think the Bible says about homosexuality is NOT the universal interpretation, nor is it the only one in history (e.g. Martin Luther interpreted arsenokroite as "masturbator)"Did it ever occur to you that his interpretation may be correct and you may be mistaken? I'm not saying he is, it just appears that you never consider the possibility that it is YOU that have an error of understanding.Well thats certainly not what I'm doing. I make the point that no accurate translation, in context, of any part of the Bible, condemns consentual, monogomous homosexual unions, but thats not twisting anything.Irony alert... please, consider, just for a moment.... how long have YOU believed that homosexuality is wrong, and how tough is it for you to consider someone elses ideas on the subject that differ to your own/ Its all well and good to claim that other people go to great lengths to keep believing what they already believe, but are YOU prepared to consider you are guilty of the same behaviour?I don't understand why you think homosexuals should be out working for the good of other homosexuals, any more than blondes should be out working for the good of other blondes. But I understand the rest of what you say. I don't agree with you is all.Right back atcha. I hope that by telling people homosexuals are just normal, natural, everyday people who want to make their way in the world best they can and just make it through the day, same as everyone else, then maybe it will, over time, lead to wider acceptance. Did you ever consider that God might be speaking to you through me?Always happy to have a friendly and responsive discussion. Cheers.
Great response :thumbsup:
 
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EnemyPartyII

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But think about this......we have two interpretations butting heads here. One, mine, is a simple, literal, face value interpretation, simply reading what it says and going with it. Your interpretation involves stretching things, diving into original languages, speculation on what the original earthly authors intended, playing with words and meanings, making it vague until you get the ideas you want, rather than objectivly just looking at it and coming up with a conclusion. Realize the average reader and the average Christian is not a Bible scholar, or a student of Greek, or a linguist. The average person is just someone like me, reading the Bible and taking it for what it says.
So... you think that majority makes truth? If the majority are reading a mistranslated, or mistranscribed English version that does NOT accurately reflect the intent of the original authors... we should go with the flawed, error based version, just because the majority find it easier? Really?
Who do you think God wrote the Bible for? God wanted to have his Words on paper for Christians to have a practical, easy to follow manual for how to know Him and walk with Him. So do you think He'd write it in such a way as to require a scholar to interpret it?
I don't think God wrote the Bible. I think humans wrote it to try to explain their relationship with God as best they could. If it WAS genuinely God's direct word, it really WOULD be inerrant and impossible to mistranslate. God is perfect. But since the Bible is demonstrably NOT perfect, well... that just tells me more that it is not the direct word of God.

So yep, sadly, you gotta go into a bit of Biblical and historical scholarship to get a genuine understanding of its deeper messages... but hey, nowhere does God say that understanding him or maintaining one's faith is easy.
If you were a technical writer working for an electronics company, and you were tasked with writing an instruction manual for some type of gadget that people were going to buy, would you write it in a complicated way full of jargon, requiring someone with an electronics degree to understand it? Or would you write it for the average joe schmoe to understand?
I like the analogy. However, I think that the Bible isn't that cut and dried. PARTS of it are written to be understood by the average Joe Schmoe, while other parts (Leviticus and Deuteronomy, for example) were written precisely for the use and instruction of a priestly class who were deeply schooled in the theology and intent of the authors. Leviticus was not intended to be read by Joe average, and I think that leads to some of the problems we have today, is that Joe Average reads it and assumes he understood it, without ensuring the accuracy of his copy, and without achieving the basic grounding in the relevant sociological norms of the authors to understand the context.

In all seriousness, I think that anyone who uses Leviticus to make decisions about morality should first at least read the Talmud, as the two are intended to go hand in hand. Its a bit like the DFDA here in Australia. In military justice, you need TWO books to understand whats going on... first, there is the Defence Force Discipline Act, which is written in utterly incomprehensible legalese. You need to be a lawyer to understand it. This is analogous to the legalist parts of the Bible. THEN, we have the Defence Discipline Compendium, written so that non-coms like myself with no legal training beyond the 6 hours I got in my sergeants course can use the DFDA. The compendium is about 3 times the length of the DFDA, but it goes through it point by point, and explains the intent and context of all the parts of the DFDA. This is analogous to the Talmud. Just reading the DFDA as a stand alone document without having a basic grounding of its intents and context would lead to people getting all sorts of wierd and wild ideas. Just like reading Leviticus does for people who aren't firmly grounded in ITS context.

Does this make any sense to you?
Just think about that when you think about your interpretation going against mine. Do you get what I'm saying here? I don't expect you to change your mind, but I hope you see what I'm saying.
I see what you are saying. And I can understand why you are saying it.

You believe the Bible is God's word, and that he wrote it to communicate His will to us.

I believe the Bible is a collection of writings by humans attempting to communicate their understanding of God to us.

I'm happy to change my understanding if you can come up with a logically consistent argument that shows strong evidence that the Bible genuinely is "God's Word", rather than the words of Godly inspired humans.
 
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darkshadow

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No... I think YOU are saying that, by trying to justify slavery of any form.

Being a servant is fine. I have a problem with being a servant who is not FREE TO LEAVE

Indeed, the very idea of someone being indentured (enslaved) is to say that they are of less value or inherent right than someone who is free.

Look at your ancient history, a lot of those who became servants did so by choice. Also you need to look up the meanings indentured and slavery they are quite different, especially in the Hebrew language of the Old Testament, where one translated word can have many different meanings.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Look at your ancient history, a lot of those who became servants did so by choice. Also you need to look up the meanings indentured and slavery they are quite different, especially in the Hebrew language of the Old Testament, where one translated word can have many different meanings.

So, all those prisoners taken by the Israelites forced into slavery... chose to be indentured servants?
 
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darkshadow

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No, I'm not. What is the Biblical definition of a woman who consents?



Well, if she is in a city when it occurs, any woman who does not cry out.

answer me this...

Betrothed 13 year old, raped at knife point by her stepfather, does not cry out, even though potential help was near by.

Using ONLY what the Bible says... does she consent? Does she deserve to be stoned to death?

The biblical definition of "consent" is the same as to day, when someone, male or female, agrees in this case to have sex.
If a woman is held at knife point is she consenting do, there is a Huge difference between consent and survival. Just because a woman or man, does not call out does not mean they consented, you must take into account fear for ones life. That is one of the first things taught in survival classes, if an attack like this happens. If you are in fear for your life do not fight back it is better to stay alive, try and relax and take in as many details as possible. A married woman can be raped, if she says no, and her husband forces her into sex that is rape. No means no, its just that simple. Now do some that come forward lie? Yes, and unfortuatly that has hurt those, which is way in the majority, who come forward and are not lying. A woman, I am using woman because that is the majority of rape victims, who is raped is not sinning, they did not agree to have sex with someone. They did not "ask for it", I don't care what they were wearing, or how they were flirting. You still have not given me a verse saying that a woman who is raped is to be stoned, I have given you verses where the raper is to be either put to death or made to marry. Please show me your verse so I may understand were you are coming from. Although I must say by your example, I have a feeling you know of someone that this terrible crime has happened to and justice was not done, for that my prayers go out to you and them. The verse you have given is not talking of rape, the part about her not screaming is to show that it was consensual, as in adultery, not rape as in she did call for help, why because she did not want it. The verse also says sleeps with her, not rapes her, this is not referring to rape. By saying, "she was in a town and did nt scream for help," shows that there was help available but she did not want it. There are some versions that do translate the wording in to rape, but unfortunitely they are bad tranlsating of the original. Look at Leviticus 20:10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death." This is saying the same thing as the given scripture just in different wording.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Please show me your verse so I may understand were you are coming from.
Deuteronomy 22:23.

It says any betrothed woman who has sex in a city without calling out for help shall be put to death, because she consents.

Hence, I offer the example of the 13 year old at knife point. She most certainly does NOT consent, yet, if we use only the Biblical definition, she did, and should be put to death.
 
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darkshadow

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So, all those prisoners taken by the Israelites forced into slavery... chose to be indentured servants?

Again in the Hebrew language one word can have several meaning take the word "love" there are 3 different words used for love. Just like in Hawaiian, aloha means, hello, goodbye, and love. You have to look at the words used, in the case of the Israelites and the Egyptians the word used for slavery is slavery as we know it, not an indentured servant. You must look at the original languages.
 
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darkshadow

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Deuteronomy 22:23.

It says any betrothed woman who has sex in a city without calling out for help shall be put to death, because she consents.

Hence, I offer the example of the 13 year old at knife point. She most certainly does NOT consent, yet, if we use only the Biblical definition, she did, and should be put to death.

That is not what it says, and I have already shown you this.
 
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OllieFranz

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The biblical definition of "consent" is the same as to day, when someone, male or female, agrees in this case to have sex.
If a woman is held at knife point is she consenting do, there is a Huge difference between consent and survival. Just because a woman or man, does not call out does not mean they consented, you must take into account fear for ones life. That is one of the first things taught in survival classes, if an attack like this happens. If you are in fear for your life do not fight back it is better to stay alive, try and relax and take in as many details as possible. A married woman can be raped, if she says no, and her husband forces her into sex that is rape. No means no, its just that simple. Now do some that come forward lie? Yes, and unfortuatly that has hurt those, which is way in the majority, who come forward and are not lying. A woman, I am using woman because that is the majority of rape victims, who is raped is not sinning, they did not agree to have sex with someone. They did not "ask for it", I don't care what they were wearing, or how they were flirting. You still have not given me a verse saying that a woman who is raped is to be stoned, I have given you verses where the raper is to be either put to death or made to marry. Please show me your verse so I may understand were you are coming from. Although I must say by your example, I have a feeling you know of someone that this terrible crime has happened to and justice was not done, for that my prayers go out to you and them. The verse you have given is not talking of rape, the part about her not screaming is to show that it was consensual, as in adultery, not rape as in she did call for help, why because she did not want it. The verse also says sleeps with her, not rapes her, this is not referring to rape. By saying, "she was in a town and did nt scream for help," shows that there was help available but she did not want it. There are some versions that do translate the wording in to rape, but unfortunitely they are bad tranlsating of the original. Look at Leviticus 20:10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death." This is saying the same thing as the given scripture just in different wording.
(emphasis mine)

You have already stated how difficult it is to determine whether a charge of rape is true or not if you are not God and do not know the mind of the accuser. Deuteronomy 22 simplified that chore for those who had to sit in judgment: If she could have screamed and been heard, but did not, then she consented. The only comparative situation given to allow an assumption of rape is being out in the field where there was no one to hear the screams. So it is simple: if you want to rape someone and get away with it (since if she accuses you she will also be stoned) just do it in the city.
 
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darkshadow

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You have already stated how difficult it is to determine whether a charge of rape is true or not if you are not God and do not know the mind of the accuser. Deuteronomy 22 simplified that chore for those who had to sit in judgment: If she could have screamed and been heard, but did not, then she consented. The only comparative situation given to allow an assumption of rape is being out in the field where there was no one to hear the screams. So it is simple: if you want to rape someone and get away with it (since if she accuses you she will also be stoned) just do it in the city.

I will continue to say it again. That is not what the passage is talking about, and you are adding to the passage, that it says she would not be believed. What I said regarding the few that do lie is that today, not then, today, it has become a situation of the true victim, the raped, is looked upon as not being the victim and that is wrong. The scripture is not referring to, "oh she did not cry out so she really wanted it", which is absurd to think. Now show a scripture where it does say to stone a rape victim, and not a case of consensual, "I know its wrong but I want it too baby" sex. There are none.
 
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Dogbean

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However, I think that the Bible isn't that cut and dried. PARTS of it are written to be understood by the average Joe Schmoe, while other parts (Leviticus and Deuteronomy, for example) were written precisely for the use and instruction of a priestly class who were deeply schooled in the theology and intent of the authors. Leviticus was not intended to be read by Joe average, and I think that leads to some of the problems we have today, is that Joe Average reads it and assumes he understood it, without ensuring the accuracy of his copy, and without achieving the basic grounding in the relevant sociological norms of the authors to understand the context.
True, leviticus is written for the priests running the temple. But how about Romans, 1 Corinthians, 1 and 2 Timothy, etc? They are just letters, written by Paul (a regular guy used by God) written to be read aloud in churches (because that is how the information was spread in those days) and who were the people in the churches listening? Just average people. So while your refute of my case weakly holds up for the verse from Leviticus, it does not for the verses I gave you from Paul's letters.

Another point......Leviticus, and all the OT law, was written to show people their need for a Savior. It was written to be impossible to follow perfectly, and then to give guidelines on how to perform the sacrifices that were done in the time before Jesus came. The whole OT pointed ahead, to a coming Savior. The NT is full of practical information for the average joe. That is why Christ said that he came to fulfill the law, to be the perfect sacrifice once and for all. While the law contains good moral information, like the ten commandments (I'm sure there is no dispute that the ten commandments are good), it's not meant to be followed to the letter anymore because Christ came. Does that mean we can willfully sin? No. That's dealt with in Romans 6-9. The purpose of the OT Law was to show people that they could not please God on their own. So first God gave them a sacrificial system to cleans themselves of sin. Then He sent Jesus to be our sacrifice.

I wonder; if you doubt the Bible so much, why do you still follow Christ? I'm not doubting your faith, I just wonder why you follow something you think is so untrustworthy.
 
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OllieFranz

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True, leviticus is written for the priests running the temple. But how about Romans, 1 Corinthians, 1 and 2 Timothy, etc? They are just letters, written by Paul (a regular guy used by God) written to be read aloud in churches (because that is how the information was spread in those days) and who were the people in the churches listening? Just average people. So while your refute of my case weakly holds up for the verse from Leviticus, it does not for the verses I gave you from Paul's letters.

Another point......Leviticus, and all the OT law, was written to show people their need for a Savior. It was written to be impossible to follow perfectly, and then to give guidelines on how to perform the sacrifices that were done in the time before Jesus came. The whole OT pointed ahead, to a coming Savior. The NT is full of practical information for the average joe. That is why Christ said that he came to fulfill the law, to be the perfect sacrifice once and for all. While the law contains good moral information, like the ten commandments (I'm sure there is no dispute that the ten commandments are good), it's not meant to be followed to the letter anymore because Christ came. Does that mean we can willfully sin? No. That's dealt with in Romans 6-9. The purpose of the OT Law was to show people that they could not please God on their own. So first God gave them a sacrificial system to cleans themselves of sin. Then He sent Jesus to be our sacrifice.

I wonder; if you doubt the Bible so much, why do you still follow Christ? I'm not doubting your faith, I just wonder why you follow something you think is so untrustworthy.

Although we can never, this side of the veil, be certain, I can accept that Paul probably coined the term "arsenokoitai" (1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy) from the LXX translation of Leviticus 20:13. But then we have to ask why --Why didn't he just use an existing Greek word?

I suspect that it was because no Greek word meant exactly what he wanted he wanted to convey. There was something in the original commands in Leviticus that would be lost in translation. Whether it was the implication of rape, the hint of idolatry, or the fact that it was part of a Law that was intended for the Jewish people, to set them apart from the nations, Paul needed to be clear that it was Levitical "man-lyers" to which he was referring.

As far as Romans goes, we have, most of us, lost the key to understanding Paul's point because of baggage. The example that Paul borrows in Romans 1:26-27 came with baggage that the Romans would have understood. Paul altered the language of the original example, even to the point of breaking up a parallel construction that clearly contrasted "bad" homo-sex to "good" hetero-sex, in order to make it clear what was baggage and what was essential to the example. But let me back up and start from the beginning.

Romans 1 cannot be separated from Romans 2. The entire section 1:18-32 is a set-up for the claim made in 2:1-3 ("Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?") and expanded upon in the rest of the chapter, indeed, even in the rest of the letter. [1 Corinthians 6:9-11ff is a mini version of this same set-up/let-down/godspell* technique.](*I used the archaic spelling of gospel to indicate that I am not talking about the biography recorded in the four Gospels, but the "good news" of salvation by grace through Christ that is their message.)

Most of the set-up is an account of the sins of the world as practiced by the goyim that his Jewish-born readers/listeners would have found very familiar. Many contemporary works read very similarly (but they simply condemn the "nations" without turning the lesson back on the righteous, as Paul does. One easily obtainable example of such literature of the Hellenized Jews is found in the Book of the Wisdom of Solomon in the Apocrypha (which can be searched online on the Unbound Bible site. Compare chapter 14 to Romans 1:18-32.

For the Gentile-born, Paul added a famous example of the sin of excess, a sin whose root cause was seen as allowing Passion to overcome Reason. The first clue that this is a Greek example is the use of the phrase "para physis," "against (or "contrary to") nature." This is Greek concept, not a Jewish one, and does not appear anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures. By the first century, the phrase had been much watered down and simply meant "unexpectedly" or occassionally "uncharacteristically." That ("unexpectedly") is the way Paul uses it later in the letter when he speaks of God grafting both wild and original branches into the tree (Romans 11:24 "For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed [grafted] contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed [grafted] into their own olive tree?")

But, originally, the phrase "para physis" was a philosophical term, basically equivalent of naming something a sin. The Greeks thought that the better nature of man was to strive to do the Reasonable thing at all times, and that to allow Passion to over-ride Reason was to go against that better nature.

The example Paul borrows originally comes from Laws, one of Plato's Dialogues. Plato's protagonist (for once not identified as Socrates) is explaining that a lawmaker must not only be concerned with defining wrongful actions and their punishments, but also with educating his people on good behavior, especially on avoiding excess. Most of his examples in this section concern drinking, drunkenness, and what we now call alcoholism and addiction, but for his first example, he chose sex, and could not help but tweak the example to get in a little "dig" at his host by making the excessive behavior same-sex.

NOTE: I'm spending more time on this response than I had anticipated. I have to sign off now for real-life reasons. I will continue this tonight.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Again in the Hebrew language one word can have several meaning take the word "love" there are 3 different words used for love. Just like in Hawaiian, aloha means, hello, goodbye, and love. You have to look at the words used, in the case of the Israelites and the Egyptians the word used for slavery is slavery as we know it, not an indentured servant. You must look at the original languages.

OK, and so... according to the original languages... all those prisoners of war taken by the Israelites CHOSE to be "indentured servants" for the rest of their lives? Forced to work without pay, against their will? Help me out here?
 
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EnemyPartyII

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That is not what it says, and I have already shown you this.
Deuteronomy 22:23

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her,
24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.
Pretty rough when you call the Bible a liar to defend what you'd like it to say.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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True, leviticus is written for the priests running the temple. But how about Romans, 1 Corinthians, 1 and 2 Timothy, etc? They are just letters, written by Paul (a regular guy used by God) written to be read aloud in churches (because that is how the information was spread in those days) and who were the people in the churches listening? Just average people. So while your refute of my case weakly holds up for the verse from Leviticus, it does not for the verses I gave you from Paul's letters.
Indeed... except that the translation of Paul's letters is problematic... the word in question is "arsenokoite"... which has been translated in several English Bibles as meaning "homosexual", however, its not quite that clear cut. Martin Luther, for example, thought it meant "masturbator", and a great many Biblical and linguistic scholars agree that the word is not the commonly used Greek term for homosexual. Heres an excelent site discussing these translations difficulties... http://www.clgs.org/5/5_4_3.html
I wonder; if you doubt the Bible so much, why do you still follow Christ? I'm not doubting your faith, I just wonder why you follow something you think is so untrustworthy.
Its not that I think the Bible is untrustworthy, per se, its just that I don't think it is litrally accurate or God's direct word. I agree with Paul, it IS all good for instruction and correction... but just like the parables, just because they are useful doesn't make them true or accurate.

If God wanted us to blindly follow the Bible, he wouldn't have given us the tools to analyse it more deeply than a first impression reading
 
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darkshadow

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OK, and so... according to the original languages... all those prisoners of war taken by the Israelites CHOSE to be "indentured servants" for the rest of their lives? Forced to work without pay, against their will? Help me out here?

What prisoners of war please show scripture, I will not guess at what you are saying. In some cases slavery was slavery in the Bible, but with out the verse there is no way of telling.
 
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darkshadow

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Pretty rough when you call the Bible a liar to defend what you'd like it to say.

I am not calling the Bible a liar, that would be you wanting to make the Scriptures say something they are not saying. You seem to keep taking out verse 23 when it says "sleep" not "rape". I don't see why you are confused about the two different words? Sleep in verse 23 is composed of two words in the Aramaic language, sexual relations + sleep with in a consensual form. When the word "rape" is used as in Deuteronomy 22:25 there are four words used to mean the word "rape". Which comes out to be violate+rape+rapes+sleeps with in a literal translation. The point is that sleep as in verse 23 is to have sex with consensually, while verse 25 is to have un-consensual sex with. The point section in verse 24 regarding the not "crying screaming out" is just showing that it was consensual, not that she did not scream out of fear, not because they were in town, or any other idea of that form. It is also showing that it was concentual in that, she was in town and therefore could be helped if wanted, but did not want to be. You used a case of a victim at knife point, which in these verse never mentions a knife so you are adding to the verse, to make it say something it is not saying. The fact is, is that the verse is talking about adulterous consentual sex, and not rape.
 
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