Should Christians oppose gay civil marriage?

[Andreusz]

Being homosexual is a ... choice. It's a tough one, because people like to think it's their identity, that they are born that way. But I have seen people switch back and forth, being straight and being gay.

Even if this is true of some people (and I really doubt whether it is -- I would say people who appear to do this are actually bisexual) it doesn't mean that all homosexual people can do this.

And since God clearly defined it to be a sin, and being of a particular race to not be a sin, than this is a very poor analogy that you keep bringing up. Being black and being gay are not even close to the same thing.

For most gay people, their sexuality is as intrinsic to them as your sexuality is to you. So I would say the analogy works well. You simply don't choose to believe it.

Homosexuality CAN be overcome by the power of God. As much as the gays want to cry and whine that it's not their choice, and it's their identity, that's hogwash! It's tough to give it up, but it's tough to give up any sin, isn't it, when you've been doing it all your life? When I got saved it took me 7 years to give up using obscene language! That's one of the toughest things I've ever done.

I cannot see any analogy between feeling a certain kind of sexual/emotional desire, and swearing -- unless you have Touret's syndrome, and your swearing is thus psychologically programmed.

 

[Andreusz]

slaves mentioned were not as those of the black slavery, .

Why does that make Biblical slavery good?

 

[Andreusz]

I believe you have rhetoric confussed with the truth, its okay that happens alot with those who call themselves "christian" by label.

Forum-specific rules:

"If a member self-identifies as Christian, you are to respect that. You may debate their beliefs, but you may not tell them they are not Christian."

I think you just broke a rule.

 

[Dogbean]

Discrimination is discrimination no matter who it is directed at. And Discrimination is discrimination no matter what bible verses are used to justify it.[/font][/size][/color]

BBW, when we all die and go to the judgement seat of Christ, and He separates the sheep from the goats, and the sheep go to heaven and the goats go to hell for rejection of Christ, is that discrimination? Is God discriminating against the unsaved? I'm guessing you will say yes, and that means you have a problem with God, not me.

 

[Dogbean]

As has already been pointed out to you, there is no "clear scriptural support condemning homosexuality." Unless you're working from a seriously flawed understanding of what homosexuality is.

David Brider, it does not need to be "pointed out to me." I studied the Scriptures and it clearly condemns homosexual conduct. There's no way around it that I can see. Homosexual practitioners are holding onto sin, and clearly their sin is more important to them than their relationship with Christ.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Not sure what Bible your reading, because you are so off base it is not even funny. The Bible does not condone rapre, it does speak of the act of homosexuality, aka those participating would be homosexual, slaves mentioned were not as those of the black slavery, and unclean food was removed, along with the Sabbath in the New Covenant, or New Testament. Try reading the entire Bible, and putting it all in context together and not the pieces you want. I believe you have rhetoric confussed with the truth, its okay that happens alot with those who call themselves "christian" by label.

This is exactly what gay christians have been trying to tell y'all.

Well said!

 

[darkshadow]

Why does that make Biblical slavery good?

That would be because it was not slavery as we picture slavery from our past. Biblical slavery was only slavery in name. "Slaves" would work off a debt owed and then return to their families, and in some cases be allowed to come back and forth from the own house each day. They were even let go and there debt cleared every Jubilee.

 

[darkshadow]

Forum-specific rules:

"If a member self-identifies as Christian, you are to respect that. You may debate their beliefs, but you may not tell them they are not Christian."

I think you just broke a rule.

I might have broke a rule, even though I do not agree. Instead of engaging in a real debate, I felt it was my place to defend the Holy Scriptures. The Scriptures do not need to be defended since truth does not need defended. I do however, stand by what I said as truth regarding people calling themselves "christian".

 

[KCKID]

I might have broke a rule, even though I do not agree. Instead of engaging in a real debate, I felt it was my place to defend the Holy Scriptures. The Scriptures do not need to be defended since truth does not need defended. I do however, stand by what I said as truth regarding people calling themselves "christian".

I think your original comment regarding 'questionable Christianity' was aimed at me, darkshadow. What have I said or implied that would make you think I was not a Christian? I'm just curious.

Incidentally, there's a whole heap of 'truth' in the Bible from a God who appears to be quite okay with raping virgins and murdering foreigners while supposedly condemning homosexuals and bare-headed women speaking in the Church. To quote Pontius Pilate, "What is truth?" Do YOU know?

 

[TeChNoWC]

Women 'covering their head' refers to being covered by their husband, rather than they covering their husband which is what a lot of women try to do today. Man's role in the relationship is to be the 'head' of the household.

 

[Andreusz]

That would be because it was not slavery as we picture slavery from our past. Biblical slavery was only slavery in name. "Slaves" would work off a debt owed and then return to their families, and in some cases be allowed to come back and forth from the own house each day. They were even let go and there debt cleared every Jubilee.

I never realized that being a slave could be such fun.

 

[Polycarp1]

BBW, when we all die and go to the judgement seat of Christ, and He separates the sheep from the goats, and the sheep go to heaven and the goats go to hell for rejection of Christ, is that discrimination? Is God discriminating against the unsaved? I'm guessing you will say yes, and that means you have a problem with God, not me.

You wanna take a good hard look at6 the actual parable, and what it is that Christ uses as the basis for separating sheep from goats, and get back to us on what it tells you about the topic in question?

 

[Dogbean]

You wanna take a good hard look at6 the actual parable, and what it is that Christ uses as the basis for separating sheep from goats, and get back to us on what it tells you about the topic in question?

With respect, I'm the one posing the question. You are not really asking anything here.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Not sure what Bible your reading, because you are so off base it is not even funny. The Bible does not condone rapre,

It does so multiple times, usually as a means of forcing girls into marriage, often times these girls were prisoners of war

Judges 21:10-24
Numbers 31:7-18
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Judges 5:30
Zechariah 14:1-2

it does speak of the act of homosexuality, aka those participating would be homosexual,

Actually the bible only condemns male on male rape. Strange given that it generally approves of male on female rape

slaves mentioned were not as those of the black slavery,

Slaves are slaves.
Leviticus 25:44-46 details laws about purchasing slaves including the purchasing of children and the fact that slaves are passed on as inheritance

Exodus 21:2-6 tells us that children born into slavery are slaves for life

Exodus 21:7-11 relates the rules for selling your own daughter into slavery

Exodus 21:7-11 tells us the proper way to beat and even kill slaves and how this is OK as slaves are “property”

1 Timothy 6:1-2 condemns slaves who try to free themselves and or run away from slavery

and unclean food was removed,

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Matt 5:18

[quote
along with the Sabbath in the New Covenant, or New Testament. Try reading the entire Bible, and putting it all in context together and not the pieces you want.[/quote]
If we live under a new covenant where the commandment of Jesus is the law. How can anyone justify using Leviticus or even Paul to condemn minorities?

 

[BigBadWlf]

That would be because it was not slavery as we picture slavery from our past. Biblical slavery was only slavery in name. "Slaves" would work off a debt owed and then return to their families, and in some cases be allowed to come back and forth from the own house each day. They were even let go and there debt cleared every Jubilee.

“However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.” Leviticus 25:44-45
It’s a well known fact that children often sell themselves into slavery as a career move


“If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year.” Exodus 21: 2-3
Paying off a debt includes one’s wife and children being owned by another man forever?

“If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.” Exodus 21:2-6
Do you really think having your children owned by another man and the only way to stay with your family is to become a piece of property and by physically mutilated by your owner to represent some form of debt payment?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

It does so multiple times, usually as a means of forcing girls into marriage, often times these girls were prisoners of war

Judges 21:10-24
Numbers 31:7-18
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Judges 5:30
Zechariah 14:1-2

Actually the bible only condemns male on male rape. Strange given that it generally approves of male on female rape

Point of order, may I take this opportunity to point out that a literal, legalist interpretation of the Bible also commands the stoning of female rape victims?

 

[Dogbean]

Rape is covered under "fornication" which is sex outside of marriage. Male on male, female on female, male/female.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Rape is covered under "fornication" which is sex outside of marriage. Male on male, female on female, male/female.

Interesting how you unquestioningly accept that the 19th century meaning of the term "fornication" is an accurate interpretation of the original Hebrew.

 

[OllieFranz]

Point of order, may I take this opportunity to point out that a literal, legalist interpretation of the Bible also commands the stoning of female rape victims?

The difference between whether the rape resulted in marrying off or stoning the victim is whether or not she is "spoken for." A married or betrothed victim is deemed an adulteress (unless she was raped in the field), and stoned. A single woman is forced to marry her rapist and unlike other Jewish marriages, divorce was forbidden in this case.

 

[Dogbean]

Interesting how you unquestioningly accept that the 19th century meaning of the term "fornication" is an accurate interpretation of the original Hebrew.

EP2, let me ask you something. What does "do not steal" mean to you? How about "love your neighbor as yourself?" And what does it mean to not judge?

Also, a majority of Christians give in some form; money for missionary work overseas, money to support the local church, time in doing work or service projects for the church or community to help out other Christians or to spread God's Word locally or overseas, or to help Christians overseas have safe places to worship in places like China where it's outlawed. What are you doing for homosexuals who are dying for what they want? What are you doing for gays in repressed Islamic countries? Are you even thinking about them? What are you doing for gays in your country or the USA dying of AIDS? Are you thinking about them or praying for them? You said you are a loving, devout Christian.

Please be kind enough to answer all of these; I'm going somewhere with this.