Should Christians oppose gay civil marriage?

[EnemyPartyII]

Okay, God has declared homosexuality a sin because he is God and says it is.
God declared homosexuality a sin because it goes against his plan for a man and woman to become one flesh in a union of the two.
There are two answers for you using your own criteria.

In what way does it go against God's plan? Specifically... how does two people having homosexual sex disrupt God's plans? I mean, He made them homosexual already, so its not like he expected children from them or anything...

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Disregarding the scriptures, you only have the "argument from anatomy"..

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Disregarding the scriptures, you only have the "argument from anatomy"..

And a really bad argument from anatomy at that... considering that homosexuality has a genetic (micro-anatomical) cause, and all the physical structures (macro-anatomy) that make sense only in the context of homosexual intimacy.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

What evolutionary benefit does THAT give.. x_x;

 

[EnemyPartyII]

What evolutionary benefit does THAT give.. x_x;

If homosexuality in a population confers a kin advantage, than homosexual conducive structures make sense.

Since we see homosexual individuals in all higher mammals, and several other species to boot, nature strongly suggests that homosexuality DOES in fact, provide a kin advantage.

What that advantage may be, specifically, is theoretical, and possibly varied between different examples. But evolution/.natural selection is a strict master, and such highly developed homosexual phenotypes and genotypes simply would not exist if they did not produce some sort of benefit.

 

[Andreusz]

Anyway, the point is that some of us - probably more than we know - are dealt with by the mods at some time or another whether we believe we deserve it or not. Just hang in there.

What angers me is that Christian insults directed against homosexuals and atheists are never dealt with, at least as far as I can see.

 

[darkshadow]

In what way does it go against God's plan? Specifically... how does two people having homosexual sex disrupt God's plans? I mean, He made them homosexual already, so its not like he expected children from them or anything...

God's plan is stated in Genesis 2:24 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." His plan includes the becoming of one flesh, sex, for procreation and enjoyment. Yes I said it sex was created for enjoyment. (Tangent alert) Some "christians" believe that sex is not to be enjoyable, but those who have had sex I must say would disagree. (tangent over). I will even state here that being a homosexual is not a sin, acting upon those urges is a sin, just as drinking is not a sin, but drinking excessively is. A heterosexual admiring a woman's beauty is not a sin, but when he lusts for her it is. Now I know "hate the sin love the sinner" is not found in the Scriptures, but if you read the Scriptures, especially Jesus and the woman caught in adultery, the theme is throughout. God does not hate people, he created them and in Genesis 1:31 it says, "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good....." God can not say this is good, but now I hate it. In the same, God says he hates homosexuality, not homosexuals. God did not make homosexuals, the fall of man did, but he still loves homosexuals, but not there sin.

 

[Andreusz]

Seems to me we're getting off topic on this thread. The discussion is currently centring on whether or not the Bible condemns homosexuality. My original question was: even if the Bible does condemn homosexuality, is that a reason for Christians to oppose gay civil marriage (considering that homosexuality, unlike other 'sins', does not harm anyone in any way)?

 

[Inviolable]

Seems to me we're getting off topic on this thread. The discussion is currently centring on whether or not the Bible condemns homosexuality. My original question was: even if the Bible does condemn homosexuality, is that a reason for Christians to oppose gay civil marriage (considering that homosexuality, unlike other 'sins', does not harm anyone in any way)?

Not really, in order to understand the answer to your question you need to understand religion. More specifically, Christianity.
Some of it is just blind faith. I've seen atheist point it out several times so I know you have to have at least seen the expression before.
So, one we're on topic and two you're question was answered several times.

The fault is in your tactics. It appears as if you're trying to show us "Christians" the folly of our ways. By repeating over and over again that homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone. But you're also not noticing that you get the same answer each and everytime.
Which leads us Christians to believe you're trying to deChristianize us.
Which is insulting.

Christians don't go against the word of God, which is the bible and what God thinks. Doesn't matter if we understand it or not, thats simply how a religion works.
You could say it is very odd for someone to do so.
But then again you're gay and have no reason why. Other then you don't like straight sex.
So for all you know Gods commands about homosexuality could totally be legit.

 

[Andreusz]

Which leads us Christians to believe you're trying to deChristianize us.
Which is insulting.

No, I'm just telling what your position looks like to a person who approaches things from the atheist perspective.

But then again you're gay and have no reason why. Other then you don't like straight sex.

Nope, it's 'cause I like guys.

So okay, I take it then that you oppose gay civil marriage, because your religion tells you that homosexuality is wrong. Well ,your religion also tells you that cohabitation before marriage is wrong, and that remarriage after no-fault divorce is wrong. Are you also working to change the laws that allow these things?

Do you know of ANY individuals or organizations that are working to change these laws? There are lots of organizations opposing gay civil marriage.

 

[David Brider]

Not really, in order to understand the answer to your question you need to understand religion. More specifically, Christianity.
Some of it is just blind faith. I've seen atheist point it out several times so I know you have to have at least seen the expression before.
So, one we're on topic and two you're question was answered several times.

The fault is in your tactics. It appears as if you're trying to show us "Christians" the folly of our ways. By repeating over and over again that homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone. But you're also not noticing that you get the same answer each and everytime.
Which leads us Christians to believe you're trying to deChristianize us.
Which is insulting.

Christians don't go against the word of God, which is the bible and what God thinks. Doesn't matter if we understand it or not, thats simply how a religion works.
You could say it is very odd for someone to do so.
But then again you're gay and have no reason why. Other then you don't like straight sex.
So for all you know Gods commands about homosexuality could totally be legit.

I'm really struggling to understand how this relates to the main topic of the thread. Can I just ask what I believe Andreusz is asking in a more general sense? Forget homosexuality, forget sex, forget any specific moral issue, just consider this question:

Is it right for Christians to tell non-Christians what to do? For Christians to say "this is what we believe to be morally acceptable behaviour, so we believe you should live by this code too"?

I honestly don't believe it is. Partly because on many moral issues, there is no consensus amongst Christians, so to take one particular Christian perspective and enforce it on non-Christians is ludicrous. And I'm not talking just about homosexuality - take an issue like warfare and pacifism, where some Christians genuinely believe that military service is acceptable and war is (at least in some situations) an OK way of resolving issues, whereas some believe that it's better to be pacifist and seek diplomatic solutions to our differences. Or the environment, where some Christians believe that because God has given us stewardship over the Earth, that Christians should be taking the lead in environmental issues, whereas other Christians believe we should ignore warnings of global warming. Or alcohol, where some Christians believe that it's acceptable to drink in moderation, whilst others believe that we should be entirely teetotal. And yes, as regards to homosexuality, there are some Christians who genuinely believe, on studying the Scripture, that it's okay to be homosexual, and to be in a same-gender sexually active relationship, some who believe that it's okay to be homosexual but that same-gender sexual activity is a no-no, and some who believe that even actually being homosexual is a sin. In these and other issues, what would you say is the Christian approach? The obvious answer is that no matter how sincere you may be in your beliefs, not all Christians agree with you, so to say that your particular view should be enforced on all non-Christians would be...well, dubious, as far as I'm concerned.

But more importantly, I just don't believe that any one faith or worldview should be allowed to dominate in terms of transferring their moral agenda into the legal sphere, because what you have then is theocracy, and it just won't work. Sure, all views need to be represented at some level, but for all views to be translated into law is going to be unworkable.

As far as allowing same-gender weddings to take place, I understand that not all Christians think it should happen. But - as I've said before - I don't think their beliefs should be allowed to dictate terms to those who, for whatever reason, do think that same-gender weddings should be allowed to take place. After all, if in your nation or state, same-gender weddings are allowed, nobody is forcing people who disagree with same-gender weddings to a.) have one, to b.) take part in one, or to c.) approve of them. If you genuinely, sincerely believe that same-gender marriage is wrong, then don't get married to someone of the same gender as yourself! If you don't like the idea, nobody's stopping you from thinking they're a bad idea! But if two people meet, fall in love, enjoy a happy relationship with each other, but aren't allowed to marry because they happen to be a same-gender couple and the law in their nation or state forbids them getting married, then...well, frankly, what business is it of those who object to same-gender marriage? How do those who object to same-gender marriage in any way benefit from ensuring that same-gender marriage is banned in their nation/state?

And no, it's not about trying to de-Christianise people - it's just about coming to terms with the fact that we share this world with billions of people, not all of whom agree with us on some issues we feel strongly about, and trying to force our views on others isn't necessarily going to lead to harmonious relationships.

Oh, one final thing...

But then again you're gay and have no reason why. Other then you don't like straight sex.

Not liking straight sex isn't a reason for being gay. It might be a result of being gay, in some situations (but it might not). Personally, I find that the idea of sex rather squicks me out. Hopefully, when my fiancée and I get married I'll overcome that (apart from anything else, she's rather keen for us to have children), but who knows? At any rate, it's nothing to do with my sexual orientation.

David.

 

[Andreusz]

^ I agree with everything that David has argued above (except that the idea of sex does not squick me out )

 

[Inviolable]

No, I'm just telling what your position looks like to a person who approaches things from the atheist perspective.

Thats good but you throw the whole "I don't believe in God" thing in our face when we say, "It's from God".
When that is the reason we're doing what we're doing.
It's a longer more stretched out version of, no you're not, yes I am, no you're not, yes I am...

Nope, it's 'cause I like guys.

So sex with guys is out of the question?
Yay! Sarcasm!

So okay, I take it then that you oppose gay civil marriage, because your religion tells you that homosexuality is wrong. Well ,your religion also tells you that cohabitation before marriage is wrong, and that remarriage after no-fault divorce is wrong. Are you also working to change the laws that allow these things?

Do you know of ANY individuals or organizations that are working to change these laws? There are lots of organizations opposing gay civil marriage.

Yeah see, now we get into some age old arguments.
I say, we fall under grace and those are old rules then you say, Jesus never spoke bad about gay people.
Then I point out that Jesus did mention marriage and why the rules were changed because our hearts are cold.

And then you tell me more about how the bible just doesn't make since to you and we chat about that for 8 more pages and finally we agree that I'm Christian and you're an atheist who's gay and we both go our separate ways.
Where's the communication you're so eager to get to?

You know? Where is this current conversation getting us?

Are you here for answers or just to be admired for being an ultra cool atheist gay guy?

 

[Inviolable]

I'm really struggling to understand how this relates to the main topic of the thread. Can I just ask what I believe Andreusz is asking in a more general sense? Forget homosexuality, forget sex, forget any specific moral issue, just consider this question:

Is it right for Christians to tell non-Christians what to do? For Christians to say "this is what we believe to be morally acceptable behaviour, so we believe you should live by this code too"?

I honestly don't believe it is. Partly because on many moral issues, there is no consensus amongst Christians, so to take one particular Christian perspective and enforce it on non-Christians is ludicrous. And I'm not talking just about homosexuality - take an issue like warfare and pacifism, where some Christians genuinely believe that military service is acceptable and war is (at least in some situations) an OK way of resolving issues, whereas some believe that it's better to be pacifist and seek diplomatic solutions to our differences. Or the environment, where some Christians believe that because God has given us stewardship over the Earth, that Christians should be taking the lead in environmental issues, whereas other Christians believe we should ignore warnings of global warming. Or alcohol, where some Christians believe that it's acceptable to drink in moderation, whilst others believe that we should be entirely teetotal. And yes, as regards to homosexuality, there are some Christians who genuinely believe, on studying the Scripture, that it's okay to be homosexual, and to be in a same-gender sexually active relationship, some who believe that it's okay to be homosexual but that same-gender sexual activity is a no-no, and some who believe that even actually being homosexual is a sin. In these and other issues, what would you say is the Christian approach? The obvious answer is that no matter how sincere you may be in your beliefs, not all Christians agree with you, so to say that your particular view should be enforced on all non-Christians would be...well, dubious, as far as I'm concerned.

But more importantly, I just don't believe that any one faith or worldview should be allowed to dominate in terms of transferring their moral agenda into the legal sphere, because what you have then is theocracy, and it just won't work. Sure, all views need to be represented at some level, but for all views to be translated into law is going to be unworkable.

As far as allowing same-gender weddings to take place, I understand that not all Christians think it should happen. But - as I've said before - I don't think their beliefs should be allowed to dictate terms to those who, for whatever reason, do think that same-gender weddings should be allowed to take place. After all, if in your nation or state, same-gender weddings are allowed, nobody is forcing people who disagree with same-gender weddings to a.) have one, to b.) take part in one, or to c.) approve of them. If you genuinely, sincerely believe that same-gender marriage is wrong, then don't get married to someone of the same gender as yourself! If you don't like the idea, nobody's stopping you from thinking they're a bad idea! But if two people meet, fall in love, enjoy a happy relationship with each other, but aren't allowed to marry because they happen to be a same-gender couple and the law in their nation or state forbids them getting married, then...well, frankly, what business is it of those who object to same-gender marriage? How do those who object to same-gender marriage in any way benefit from ensuring that same-gender marriage is banned in their nation/state?

And no, it's not about trying to de-Christianise people - it's just about coming to terms with the fact that we share this world with billions of people, not all of whom agree with us on some issues we feel strongly about, and trying to force our views on others isn't necessarily going to lead to harmonious relationships.

But Christians aren't the only ones voting on laws in this country. I tried to explain that before and it didn't go over so well.
Can you rationally explain why you're gay?

Oh, one final thing...



Not liking straight sex isn't a reason for being gay. It might be a result of being gay, in some situations (but it might not). Personally, I find that the idea of sex rather squicks me out. Hopefully, when my fiancée and I get married I'll overcome that (apart from anything else, she's rather keen for us to have children), but who knows? At any rate, it's nothing to do with my sexual orientation.

David.

Well, generally thats whats been said so far. Beyond the fact that homosexuals repeat over and over again that they can't help but be who they are. That's the only other answer.
You know, telling me that a man falls in love with another man or a woman falls in love with another woman doesn't explain a thing.
So looking at it from any answer given so far is still the same answer with no rational explanation.

 

[David Brider]

But Christians aren't the only ones voting on laws in this country.

Which country is that?

And no, Christians shouldn't be the only ones voting on laws in any country. That's the point about democracy - we all get a say in the decision-making progress, but we can't all expect our opinions and beliefs to be enshrined in law. There's got to be a bit of give and take - there's seldom 100% consensus about anything.

I tried to explain that before and it didn't go over so well.

I didn't see it myself. Care to explain again?

Can you rationally explain why you're gay?

As I'm not gay, I might have some difficulty with that...

Well, generally thats whats been said so far. Beyond the fact that homosexuals repeat over and over again that they can't help but be who they are.

This does, indeed, seem to be the case. Much as heterosexuals and bisexuals and asexuals can't help but be who they are. I've yet to come across anyone who consciously chose who to be attracted to.

You know, telling me that a man falls in love with another man or a woman falls in love with another woman doesn't explain a thing.
So looking at it from any answer given so far is still the same answer with no rational explanation.

Sure, there's no rational explanation for homosexual attraction. But what does that mean? There's no rational explanation for heterosexual attraction either. You meet someone, you find you're attracted to that person. If things go well, there's mutual attraction, you fall in love with each other, you end up married, maybe with kids, maybe not. But no, there's no rhyme or reason behind who you're likely to be attracted to. Should there be?

David.

 

[Andreusz]

Thats good but you throw the whole "I don't believe in God" thing in our face when we say, "It's from God".
When that is the reason we're doing what we're doing.
It's a longer more stretched out version of, no you're not, yes I am, no you're not, yes I am...

I have come to accept that this answer is the best answer I will get. However, I don't think it very good. If anyone has a better answer, I'd be very happy to hear it.

So sex with guys is out of the question?
Yay! Sarcasm!

When I get sarcastic, the moderators delete my posts. I hope they don't do that with yours.

Yeah see, now we get into some age old arguments.
I say, we fall under grace and those are old rules

The rule about remarriage is from Matthew 19:9.

then you say, Jesus never spoke bad about gay people.

Other people on this forum have said that, but I never have.

And then you tell me more about how the bible just doesn't make since to you

Are you from Texas?

and we chat about that for 8 more pages and finally we agree that I'm Christian and you're an atheist who's gay and we both go our separate ways.
Where's the communication you're so eager to get to?
You know? Where is this current conversation getting us?

Well I hope to find out if Christians really do condemn all sin equally, or whether they see homosexuality as worse than any other sin. They say they oppose all sins equally, but I would like to see what their actions declare.

 

[Inviolable]

Which country is that?

USA.
Or you could've guessed but I'm thinking you have a point to make.

And no, Christians shouldn't be the only ones voting on laws in any country. That's the point about democracy - we all get a say in the decision-making progress, but we can't all expect our opinions and beliefs to be enshrined in law. There's got to be a bit of give and take - there's seldom 100% consensus about anything.

It isn't 100% we don't pray in schools any longer but I'm sure someone will be prejudice enough to point out that the national anthem can be considered as a prayer.
It's like asking, what do "you" say when someone sneezes.
Have you really conditioned yourself so much so against Christianity that you cant sing the national anthem? It's not safe to say, God bless you any longer.
So there are things that have been made clear that religion shouldn't be involved in.

I didn't see it myself. Care to explain again?

O.K. tell me again why someone is a homosexual.


As I'm not gay, I might have some difficulty with that...

This does, indeed, seem to be the case. Much as heterosexuals and bisexuals and asexuals can't help but be who they are. I've yet to come across anyone who consciously chose who to be attracted to.

That isn't even the point. It doesn't matter if it cant be helped, what matters is in understanding why it cant be helped.
And it can be explained rationally. People just blind themselves to hate and judgment.
It's not just Christians or heterosexuals who are blinding themselves. It's from both sides and if it didn't happen from both sides we'd have a rational answer by now.

Sure, there's no rational explanation for homosexual attraction. But what does that mean?

It means no one has even bothered to try and sort it out.
A simple and dishonest answer has been replaced by our inability to understand our emotions. Each and every time another explanation has been given the same thing has happened. Instead of reaching an understanding you're spreading hate. This is how it goes..

If you learn the same thing long enough it becomes a belief. Like Richard Dawkins. The guy spent his life following a school of thought and is now under the strict impression that he couldn't be wrong.

I think in much the same way you might be like that. You may have come to see the kind of rationality you respect as a belief. To the point where you take the understanding you have learned from school and various other areas of the social enlightenment you call life for granted.
Kind of replacing your ability to question things you once did while you were learning about them.

It's an invisible form of a biased nature, undetectable.

Only the truth of rationality learned here as been replaced by propaganda.

There's no rational explanation for heterosexual attraction either. You meet someone, you find you're attracted to that person. If things go well, there's mutual attraction, you fall in love with each other, you end up married, maybe with kids, maybe not. But no, there's no rhyme or reason behind who you're likely to be attracted to. Should there be?

David.

Other then it's how we reproduce.

 

[Inviolable]

I have come to accept that this answer is the best answer I will get. However, I don't think it very good. If anyone has a better answer, I'd be very happy to hear it.

I agree, but you cant change that.

When I get sarcastic, the moderators delete my posts. I hope they don't do that with yours.

That sucks.

The rule about remarriage is from Matthew 19:9.

It's a whole sermon to be preached on by several different passages.
To long to go into here, unless you want 4 pages of scriptures thrown at you?

Other people on this forum have said that, but I never have.

Good, it's nice to see when people don't shut themselves off to other possibilities. I'm Christian so I'm pretty much where I'm going to be at.

Are you from Texas?

No but thats a scary question.

Well I hope to find out if Christians really do condemn all sin equally, or whether they see homosexuality as worse than any other sin. They say they oppose all sins equally, but I would like to see what their actions declare.

Trust me we do, we yell at each other all the time. But there is love, so you cant take it the wrong way.

 

[Andreusz]

USA.

O.K. tell me again why someone is a homosexual.


As I'm not gay, I might have some difficulty with that...

Sexuality is not something that can be rationalized. It's a tendency to have a certain kind of feeling, rather like preferring certain foodstuffs over others. Assume you like broccoli but hate cabbage: can you rationalize that?
On the other hand, morality is something that should have a rational basis, which is why I find it unsatisfying that the only answer Christians can give to why homosexuality is considered an abomination is "because God sez'.

That isn't even the point. It doesn't matter if it cant be helped, what matters is in understanding why it cant be helped.

It can't be helped because it is not possible to 'redirect' people's feelings and tastes.
I order you to like cabbage!

And it can be explained rationally. People just blind themselves to hate and judgment.

I'm really not sure what you're saying here. Could you be more explicit?

It means no one has even bothered to try and sort it out.
A simple and dishonest answer has been replaced by our inability to understand our emotions.

Again, you've lost me here.

Each and every time another explanation has been given the same thing has happened. Instead of reaching an understanding you're spreading hate. This is how it goes..

I don't think that either David or I is 'spreading hate'.

If you learn the same thing long enough it becomes a belief. Like Richard Dawkins. The guy spent his life following a school of thought and is now under the strict impression that he couldn't be wrong.

Dawkins gives reasons for what he says. He's a scientist. A true scientist always assumes he may be wrong.

I think in much the same way you might be like that. You may have come to see the kind of rationality you respect as a belief.

Lost me again! Sorry, I am really trying to understand you, but many of the things you say are rather obscure.

 

[Inviolable]

Sexuality is not something that can be rationalized. It's a tendency to have a certain kind of feeling, rather like preferring certain foodstuffs over others. Assume you like broccoli but hate cabbage: can you rationalize that?
On the other hand, morality is something that should have a rational basis, which is why I find it unsatisfying that the only answer Christians can give to why homosexuality is considered an abomination is "because God sez'.

You're emotions toward sexuality can be explained and rationalized.

It can't be helped because it is not possible to 'redirect' people's feelings and tastes.
I order you to like cabbage!

It's happened before. Someone can grow fond of cabbage if they don't like it.
But again, it doesn't matter if it cant be helped. I've seen people afraid of a mentally ill person. I'm sure they cant help but be who they are but it's still a matter of understanding what mental illness is before people aren't afraid.

I'm really not sure what you're saying here. Could you be more explicit?

I'm saying, sort it out. You don't have to look at it like it's just one thing, As if homosexuality is only homosexuality when emotions are involved.
Being gay isn't just a sexual orientation thing. It's who you are, why are you who you are? You cant "just" be someone who falls in love with other men? You cant "just" be someone who cant help but be gay...
You're blinding yourself with your own persona if you think thats it.

Again, you've lost me here.

You can explain homosexuality. For some reason you're refusing to do so.
I think it's because people have been spoon fed whatever they think will free them. People grasp onto the easiest explanation they can get and then blind themselves by it. Turning something mundane into a monumental development of a false truth.

I don't think that either David or I is 'spreading hate'.

Christians don't intend to spread hate either. It just happens in who you are.

Dawkins gives reasons for what he says. He's a scientist. A true scientist always assumes he may be wrong.

It was an example. Each of us has a personal bias that we live in. Most of us can't get around it. Once you find a way to, you can answer anything.

Lost me again! Sorry, I am really trying to understand you, but many of the things you say are rather obscure.

Lets see if it can be understood?