Should Christians oppose gay civil marriage?

[Inviolable]

The reason I've said 'God' in these posts is because most people on these forums belive in him. If I just said 'you', I would get the answer, 'because God says so', which doesn't satisfy me. I want to know what God's reason is.

Or to put it another way, I want to know what reason you ascribe to the God you imagine.

And you got your answer.

 

[Andreusz]

You got to meet Him. It will make all the diference in the world.

I don't know where you live ... somewhere in the States? If I ever come to your State, perhaps you could introduce me.

He exists. He stated His Position. You exist. You have stated yours. Yours opposes His. He wins.
Change sides before time is up.

Moderators, does this count as a threat?

 

[Andreusz]

And you got your answer.

The only answer I have had so far is "God has declared homosexuality an abomination because it is an abomination". I find this somewhat unsatisfying.

If God is omnipotent, why can't he come up with a satisfying answer to my question?

 

[Inviolable]

The only answer I have had so far is "God has declared homosexuality an abomination because it is an abomination". I find this somewhat unsatisfying.

If God is omnipotent, why can't he come up with a satisfying answer to my question?

Yeah, God does that with a lot of stuff.

Let me ask you, why should we debate about what God does when you clearly wont accept any answer we give you because you seem to think there is a personal attack against you?

As Christians we're telling you, that the deity we worship, doesn't like certain things and we have to listen to that because we worship him.

But each and every answer or reply I've seen come from you seems to be trying to make the point that it's a personal issue.
So then when someone try's to explain that it's not exactly personal, you play the.. God doesn't exist for me "card".

So basically, I'm saying, if he doesn't exist for you. Then stop rejecting our answer. The answer in and of itself, shouldn't exist for you either and you will never hear what you want to hear.


All you're really going to do is live out some invisible form of bias by making Christians jump through hoops.

 

[darkshadow]

There is a lot of debate, on these subforums and in other places on the Internet, on whether gay marriage should be allowed. It is clear from these forums that many Christians believe that gay marriage has no place in church. It is also clear that some Christians disagree with them. However, that is not the topic I wish to discuss.

What I would like to ask is whether there is any justification for Christians opposing gay marriage in civil (secular) society. The people of California will soon be voting on this question, and it will eventually be debated throughout the United States. Most gay people regard marriage as a civil right that has been denied to them. However, some Christians believe that gay marriage should be disallowed, even in civil society (e.g. the people of MassAction, Concerned Women for America, Americans for Truth, David Daubenmire). Why shouldn't same-sex couples be allowed to marry, provided that the law does not force churches to marry such couples if those churches do not want to do this?

If you respond, could you please refrain from saying that if same-sex marriage is allowed, then the next step would be to allow marriage between a human and an animal? This argument is often made, and it is ridiculous. Animals cannot be consenting partners in a marriage, while two adult human beings can. And could you also refrain from comparing homosexuality to pedophilia? I am talking about consensual relations between adults. Thank you. I look forward to seeing what people have to say.

The quick answer, since God sees the act of homosexuality as a sin, and therefore christians should also, then gay marriage should not be allowed in the church.

 

[darkshadow]

WHY does God see homosexuality as immoral? I have asked this question several times, but so far no-one has even attempted to answer it.

Actually you have been answered over and over again, but since you do not believe that there is a God, you can not be answered. Society says its fine, well guess what, society is wrong. At one time slavery in the states was looked at as right by most of society, well they were wrong. Woman were almost less then property at one time by society, and again they were wrong. Society said young children working for hours in terrible conditions was good, well again they were wrong. Just because society says something is good, does not mean it is. Right or wrong?

You like asking questions so here is one for you?
If you do not believe in our God, then how can we answer your question, regarding our beliefs?

 

[brightmorningstar]

Should Christians oppose gay civil marriage. Of course, marriage is man and woman as in God's creation purpose. Genesis 2, Matt 19 etc. There is no such thing in God's word as gay marriage, neither is there any such thing as for example, paedophlie marriage, so both concepts are wrong according to God's word, yet I am sure paedophiles would be just as up for a union with a child. Of course thats a harsh comparison in respect that one involves consent, but the comparison is designed to show that if something isnt countennced, it isnt countenced!
But Christians must recognise people have a free choice according to the human laws in place.

 

[Caylin]

Actually you have been answered over and over again, but since you do not believe that there is a God, you can not be answered. Society says its fine, well guess what, society is wrong. At one time slavery in the states was looked at as right by most of society, well they were wrong. Woman were almost less then property at one time by society, and again they were wrong. Society said young children working for hours in terrible conditions was good, well again they were wrong. Just because society says something is good, does not mean it is. Right or wrong?

You like asking questions so here is one for you?
If you do not believe in our God, then how can we answer your question, regarding our beliefs?

The bible also says women are property and subordinate to men and that slavery is fine.

 

[David Brider]

Yeah, God does that with a lot of stuff.

What, God does circular reasoning? I hope not.

Let me ask you, why should we debate about what God does when you clearly wont accept any answer we give you because you seem to think there is a personal attack against you?

Odd, I've not see Andreusz making any such claim. He's just looking to know why God (allegedly) declares homosexuality an abomination.

As Christians we're telling you, that the deity we worship, doesn't like certain things and we have to listen to that because we worship him.

Thing is, though, most of the things which we're told God calls sinful, we can see that there are clear objective reasons for Him to call them sinful. For example:

Murder kills people, harming them in pretty much the most ultimate way possible, and causing distress and unhappiness to their friends and family who mourn their loss (and also causing more than a little distress to the friends and family of the murderer, who may be shocked to discover that someone they know and love is capable of such an atrocity).

Theft deprives people of their possessions - often possessions which they've worked hard to afford.

Rape violates peoples' sexual privacy, and like murder causes harm and distress and unhappiness to the victim and her/his family.

Adultery is a betrayal of trust and the vows of commitment one makes on marrying another person.

But homosexuality? The worst that can be said about that is that some people don't understand it. The worst that can be said about male-male sex is that unprotected, it runs the risk of STDs. The worst that can be said about female-female sex is that it might squick a few people out (although I suspect that more than a few heterosexual males would quite like to watch). If there's a reason why God would consider any of those things to be abominations, they're not terribly obvious reasons. Like Andreusz (and I suspect many others on these forums and beyond) I'd like to see a clear, objective reason for why God could possibly consider homosexuality to be an abomination.

I don't suspect that any such reason will be forthcoming, but I'm all ears. So to speak.

David.

 

[Andreusz]

Actually you have been answered over and over again,

No I have not. If I had been answered, I would have noticed. My point is this: I can see why murder and stealing are wrong, because they hurt other people. What is wrong with homosexuality?

You like asking questions so here is one for you?
If you do not believe in our God, then how can we answer your question, regarding our beliefs?

By presenting me with a sentence along the lines of "God has declared homosexuality a sin because ...."

 

[Inviolable]

What, God does circular reasoning? I hope not.



Odd, I've not see Andreusz making any such claim. He's just looking to know why God (allegedly) declares homosexuality an abomination.

You speaking for Andreusz?
Or just saying you dont see where it's happened? Look again.

Thing is, though, most of the things which we're told God calls sinful, we can see that there are clear objective reasons for Him to call them sinful. For example:

Actually the bible is filled with examples of God giving orders and people following them blindly. If you cant accept that then you need to stop calling yourself a Christian.

Murder kills people, harming them in pretty much the most ultimate way possible, and causing distress and unhappiness to their friends and family who mourn their loss (and also causing more than a little distress to the friends and family of the murderer, who may be shocked to discover that someone they know and love is capable of such an atrocity).

Theft deprives people of their possessions - often possessions which they've worked hard to afford.

Rape violates peoples' sexual privacy, and like murder causes harm and distress and unhappiness to the victim and her/his family.

Adultery is a betrayal of trust and the vows of commitment one makes on marrying another person.

So you're more then happy to call yourself a Christian as long as God makes himself out to be something you can understand?

But homosexuality? The worst that can be said about that is that some people don't understand it. The worst that can be said about male-male sex is that unprotected, it runs the risk of STDs. The worst that can be said about female-female sex is that it might squick a few people out (although I suspect that more than a few heterosexual males would quite like to watch). If there's a reason why God would consider any of those things to be abominations, they're not terribly obvious reasons. Like Andreusz (and I suspect many others on these forums and beyond) I'd like to see a clear, objective reason for why God could possibly consider homosexuality to be an abomination.

I don't suspect that any such reason will be forthcoming, but I'm all ears. So to speak.

David.

So if you were to look past the twisted views of the bible you have and actually see God doesn't agree with homosexuality and he gives us no other reason then, "He thinks it's an abomination", you wouldn't call yourself a Christian any longer?

Because such a reason isn't going to be fourth coming and yet, it's in the bible. So keep on staying all ears until God gives you an answer.
Pray for it like the rest of us horrible horrible Christian brothers and sisters you have do.
Unless you're above praying?

 

[Andreusz]

I may have to leave these forums soon. The moderators delete a lot of my posts without giving any reason. Okay, I can be sarcastic, but only in response to offensive comments by others. And posts that I consider perfectly polite get deleted as well.
I have put in complaints about other people's offensive posts, but it seems nothing is going to be done about them. I have a sense of bias here.

 

[Inviolable]

I may have to leave these forums soon. The moderators delete a lot of my posts without giving any reason. Okay, I can be sarcastic, but only in response to offensive comments by others. And posts that I consider perfectly polite get deleted as well.
I have put in complaints about other people's offensive posts, but it seems nothing is going to be done about them. I have a sense of bias here.

http://allforums.net/

 

[David Brider]

I may have to leave these forums soon. The moderators delete a lot of my posts without giving any reason. Okay, I can be sarcastic, but only in response to offensive comments by others. And posts that I consider perfectly polite get deleted as well.
I have put in complaints about other people's offensive posts, but it seems nothing is going to be done about them. I have a sense of bias here.

Personally, I think that's a shame. Granted that the debates in this place can get a wee bit heated on occasions, but I've found you to be one of the more polite and reasonable posters. I mean, I guess it helps that we agree most of the time, but OTOH there are those I disagree with who are polite and reasonable, and some with whom I agree who sometimes can be a bit jarring...

 

[Polycarp1]

Andreusz -- appeal any decisions made against you to an administrator. Supposedly the moderation staff are not supposed to make deletions without sound reason founded in the rules of the site.

Now, to address the remarks given in here:

The question is why Christians should oppose gay civil marriage, if indeed they should. It is not a question of whether it's your opinion, God's opinion, or the Bible's opinion that gay sex acts are sinful and/or abominations. For anyone past the emotional age of 13, marriage does not equal sex.

I believe I can see a valid argument in the idea that (phrasinhg a hypothetical view here) "as a conservative Christian, I cannot willfully condone the government consenting to sin. And in 99% of gay marriages, it's giving legal recognition to a state I consider sinful;, and a mockery of what I believe marriage to be." I can actually grasp how a decent person could in good faith feel that way.

For me, the key issue is in what Jesus Christ told us to do. As half of a childless (and not by choice) heterosexual marriage, I get highly offended at the idea that our marriage is in some way less valid or worthy than one in which they are cranking out another new kid every 15 months or so. (And odds are that none of those kids are getting any kind of quality parenting....) God did not say, "Go forth and become my Morality Police, in order that what you see as sins I condemn shall not be committed." He said, "Behave toward others as you would want them to behave toward you." He said, "Don't judge others, because the measure you use with which to judge them is the measure with which you too will be judged." He said, "Love others even as yourself."

This leads me to a shocking conclusion: No Christian who is married in the eyes of God can oppose gay civil marriage. Because the measure they used to decide someone else's marriage was invalid, or not worthy of recognition at law, is the measure by which God judges them. Lotta Pharisee-wouldbes running around CF sporting crosses and rings who aren't doing His bidding and who are fornicating in His eyes -- because they judged someone else's marriage as not valid or not worthy.

 

[KCKID]

I may have to leave these forums soon. The moderators delete a lot of my posts without giving any reason. Okay, I can be sarcastic, but only in response to offensive comments by others. And posts that I consider perfectly polite get deleted as well.
I have put in complaints about other people's offensive posts, but it seems nothing is going to be done about them. I have a sense of bias here.

Ne need to leave the forum, Andreusz. Don't feel alone. This has happened to me a few times. And probably others, I'm sure. Normally I AM given a reason by the mods and the 'offending' part of the post is given. I don't always agree with the reason given by the mod/s but I generally wear it anyway. I've found that most of the mods are polite when bringing a fault to my attention and I appreciate that. One thread I started a few weeks back, however, was pulled and the mod almost gleefully told me that it had not just been deleted but sent to the trash can. I found that to be a tad hurtful, especially since I hadn't realized that I'd done anything untoward. I lost some respect for that mod since I felt that she/he took it personally.

Anyway, the point is that some of us - probably more than we know - are dealt with by the mods at some time or another whether we believe we deserve it or not. Just hang in there.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I just hate it when the mods don't catch my sarcasm.

 

[visionary]

I may have to leave these forums soon. The moderators delete a lot of my posts without giving any reason. Okay, I can be sarcastic, but only in response to offensive comments by others. And posts that I consider perfectly polite get deleted as well.
I have put in complaints about other people's offensive posts, but it seems nothing is going to be done about them. I have a sense of bias here.

I feel the same way sometimes. So I can relate to what you are saying.

 

[darkshadow]

No I have not. If I had been answered, I would have noticed. My point is this: I can see why murder and stealing are wrong, because they hurt other people. What is wrong with homosexuality?

Yes, you have been answered, but you do not believe in the scriptures or in God, so our answers using our beliefs are not good enough. You want us to give you societal reason, and I at least am not going to do that. I don't care what society thinks, they are not my God, my God is my God. If he says its wrong, then its wrong, just because society says it right does not make it right. (see earlier post)

By presenting me with a sentence along the lines of "God has declared homosexuality a sin because ...."

Okay, God has declared homosexuality a sin because he is God and says it is.
God declared homosexuality a sin because it goes against his plan for a man and woman to become one flesh in a union of the two.
There are two answers for you using your own criteria.

 

[darkshadow]

The bible also says women are property and subordinate to men and that slavery is fine.

I am guessing you are speaking of Ephesians regarding women. By the way were in Scripture does it talk of women as property? Anyways, this was a church were the women of the church were causing a rifts in the church to were the word was not being heard. I also hate to sound like a "pig", but women do have a tendency to be the gossipers in the church, just as men are the ones to let politics get into the church, and both ruin churches. IN the New Testament we see Lydia. She was a business woman, and the head of her house, this does not look like a put down of women. Regarding slavery in the Bible. It was more of a working off your debt, then slavery as we know it, also every Jubilee, all debts were void, and therefore slaves let free. Slaves were not treated like the slavery we know off, they were housed, feed, and in some cases let to go home to return each day to work in the field, the home, or what ever there speciality was in.