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Should Christians oppose gay civil marriage?

OllieFranz

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Whenever he mentions interracial marriage or blacks or Jews he is engaging in pseudo-argumentation.

I have never heard of the "fallacy of pseudo-argumentation." Can you define what it is and show the lapse of logic involved, please?

Mentioning inter-racial marriage, Blacks and Jews is argument by analogy. There are fallacies connected to argument by analogy, most notably the Fallacy of Weak Analogy. I don't know if this is what you meant or not, but there is a problem with invoking Weak Analogy. You need to explain why the analogy fails.

Some Conservative Christians claim that comparisons between "homophobia" and racism are examples of Weak Analogy. They say that the comparison breaks down because Blacks don't choose their race. However, since every study of the causes of homosexuality suggest that gays don't choose their orientation, the burden of proof lies with those who claim Weak Analogy to show why it is that they think that gays do choose.
 
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*Starlight*

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I think it doesn't make sense when some Christians oppose gay civil marriage, and as an argument they say "it's a sin". Some of these Christians also believe that not going to church regularly is a sin, but I've never seen any of them try to create laws that treat people who go to church better than people who don't go to church.
 
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BigBadWlf

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Some Conservative Christians claim that comparisons between "homophobia" and racism are examples of Weak Analogy. They say that the comparison breaks down because Blacks don't choose their race. However, since every study of the causes of homosexuality suggest that gays don't choose their orientation, the burden of proof lies with those who claim Weak Analogy to show why it is that they think that gays do choose.
The objection fails based on the fact that racists don’t hate anyone because of the color of their skin, rather the issue racists have with blacks is their behavior, specifically that many (most) blacks behave or claim to be social equals to whites which racists point out is in defiance of the word of God
 
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Hentenza

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The objection fails based on the fact that racists don’t hate anyone because of the color of their skin, rather the issue racists have with blacks is their behavior, specifically that many (most) blacks behave or claim to be social equals to whites which racists point out is in defiance of the word of God

Homosexuals are not a color of the skin but a defiance of God's moral law. Please stop using the race card to justify homosexuality.
 
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KCKID

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Homosexuals are not a color of the skin but a defiance of God's moral law. Please stop using the race card to justify homosexuality.

Homosexuality or heterosexuality might not be a color of the skin but one's sexual orientation is, if you like, an innate 'substance' of a kind just as color is the pigmentation or a substance of the skin. This cannot be denied unless we blindly accept that - for some inexplicable reason - a heterosexual person chooses to be 'gay'. In other words we need to accept a belief that homosexuals are REALLY heterosexuals that are FEIGNING their sexuality. THIS defies logic and must therefore be discarded!

As for God's moral law ...there are any number of God's moral laws that Christians (conveniently) ignore such as the 'biggie' ...adultery within the Church! Another is disobedience, in fact open DEFIANCE, toward the Creation Sabbath and this one also affects a command of God. Christians have made up and gone along with their own 'laws' while conveniently discarding others. Therefore they cannot afford to stand in condemnation or judgment of others ...not to mention the fact that God told us not to do so anyway!

Homosexuality per se cannot be seen to be against God's moral law in that one's innate sexuality is 'natural' to the individual and is therefore exempt from 'the moral law'. 'Natural' and 'the norm' is a cultural concept that cannot be applied to the sexual make-up of an individual. The 'actions' of either homosexual or heterosexual are, of course, probably another matter. But again, one's sexual behavior in private is one's own business.

Is 'perfection' the result of adhering to God's moral law? If so we ALL fall short and we therefore have no case against anyone else ...especially in regard to one's sexual orientation, for crying out loud! Homosexual orientation is as 'natural' to the individual as heterosexual orientation is 'natural' to the individual. It amazes me why some people get so hung up about it. And, THIS is coming from a one-time prude.
 
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CraigBaugher

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What someone does outside the church is none of my business. Let me take that back, because if I saw a crime being committed I would act. So let me change my answer. What someone does outside the church that does not break any laws is none of my business.

We as Christians are not against Gay people, but we are against homosexual sex, and trying to have a homosexual marriage sanctioned in a church.

I don't have a problem with someone being gay, and being an active member of the church. Even if they have sex... it is a sin and it is between them and God. I am still cool. But, I cannot sanction gay marriage, because I consider marriage as a covenant between God and the Man and Woman uniting them in body and soul. Since it is clear that God does not approve of homosexual sex, I believe he would not approve of homosexual marriage.
 
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KCKID

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What someone does outside the church is none of my business. Let me take that back, because if I saw a crime being committed I would act. So let me change my answer. What someone does outside the church that does not break any laws is none of my business.

We as Christians are not against Gay people, but we are against homosexual sex, and trying to have a homosexual marriage sanctioned in a church.

I don't have a problem with someone being gay, and being an active member of the church. Even if they have sex... it is a sin and it is between them and God. I am still cool. But, I cannot sanction gay marriage, because I consider marriage as a covenant between God and the Man and Woman uniting them in body and soul. Since it is clear that God does not approve of homosexual sex,

But WHY, I wonder? By the way, I don't believe the Bible is as specific on this issue as you might believe.

I believe he would not approve of homosexual marriage.

That's fine. But, as long as you adhere to what you see as being 'scriptural ideals' then you would also NOT sanction divorce and remarriage between heterosexual couples. Right? That is far more a situation in the church than homosexuality ever will be.
 
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BigBadWlf

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What someone does outside the church is none of my business. Let me take that back, because if I saw a crime being committed I would act. So let me change my answer. What someone does outside the church that does not break any laws is none of my business.

We as Christians are not against Gay people, but we are against homosexual sex, and trying to have a homosexual marriage sanctioned in a church.
Yet many churches do just that

I must ask, just how is your statement here different from “We as Christians are not against black people, but we are against racial equality”?


I don't have a problem with someone being gay, and being an active member of the church. Even if they have sex... it is a sin and it is between them and God. I am still cool. But, I cannot sanction gay marriage, because I consider marriage as a covenant between God and the Man and Woman uniting them in body and soul.
Why should your personal definition of marriage be a justification for discrimination?


Since it is clear that God does not approve of homosexual sex, I believe he would not approve of homosexual marriage.
Its remarkably unclear, it is in the end just your opinion
 
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KCKID

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In what way are homosexuals "a defiance of God's moral law"?

Those terms are used all the time and yet none of them can be substantiated in scripture. 'God's moral law' as such is never mentioned in the Bible. But, people have a habit of taking a piece of well-known rhetoric and applying it to an argument as if fact. I don't see ANYWHERE in scripture that homosexuality is 'a defiance of anything'. The word 'homosexual' isn't even there. You know, most Christians would not even know that ...?
 
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Andreusz

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Homosexuals are not a color of the skin but a defiance of God's moral law.

WHY does God see homosexuality as immoral? I have asked this question several times, but so far no-one has even attempted to answer it.
 
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Andreusz

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But, I cannot sanction gay marriage, because I consider marriage as a covenant between God and the Man and Woman uniting them in body and soul. Since it is clear that God does not approve of homosexual sex, I believe he would not approve of homosexual marriage.

God also does not approve of divorced people remarrying, unless the reason for the divorce is fornication -- then the other party may remarry (Matthew 19:9). Are you working actively to have a law instituted that will prevent remarriage after no-fault divorce? If not, why not?
 
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dies-l

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WHY does God see homosexuality as immoral? I have asked this question several times, but so far no-one has even attempted to answer it.

How DARE you question the mind of God? If the Bible (well, my interpretation of it anyway) says something is bad, then it is bad! And, if the Bible tells me that God loves me and not you, then who am I to question Him? I don't like it anymore than you do, and I don't think it's fair, but apparently I am in God's favor and gay people are not. I wish it was different. I would like for God's grace to extend to everyone, but that's just not the case. [end sarcasm]

That actually is a good question. Perhaps, an investigation of why Moses and Paul were apparently so repulsed by "homosexual offenders" might serve as an interpretive aid in understanding Scripture. Some Christians have proposed that these passages were in response to male on male rape, male prostitution, and/or pagan sexual rituals. Generally, those looking to use the Bible to beat homosexuals over the head will immediately discount these conclusions by stating that if this is what was meant, then that is what would have been said. But, if we are going to seek wisdom from a literary work from a specific people during a specific period in history, isn't it worth at least considering the social, political, and historical setting of the writing?

And, the same people who will relent on the gay issue will unconsciously apply the same reasoning to other Scripture. For example, there are at least two of the Ten Commandments (not to mention many other parts of the Mosaic law) that are generally disregarded by modern Christians. Likewise, Paul told the Church in Corinth that, "As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." Yet, very very few of even the most conservative churches allow their women to speak and to have opinions. They will say that Paul was speaking here about women in leadership roles, but the text is clear as day: women are not allowed to say anything, even to ask a question, in church. The reality is that most of us have decided, whether we are willing to admit to it or not, that Paul was speaking in regard to specific issues at a specific time in the history of the Church. So, why are we so resistant to use the same type of thinking in regard to homosexuality? My guess is that this is because women are a much larger part of the modern church than are homosexuals, and more specifically, we need women in our churches because they are essential to church growth. For some reason, we have decided that we don't need homosexuals, so we refuse to read the Scriptures concerning homosexuality as we do when the Scriptures speak about the role of women, the Law, slavery, and whole host of other issues. That, I think, is sad.
 
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visionary

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WHY does God see homosexuality as immoral? I have asked this question several times, but so far no-one has even attempted to answer it.
Homosexuality as God sees it.

God declares it is an abomination.


Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

WHY??

God sees it more than just immoral, He sees it as an abomination. To get the best answers that will answer your hearts question, you will have to talk with God and believe that still small voice and what He is telling you.
 
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Andreusz

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Homosexuality as God sees it.

God declares it is an abomination.


Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

WHY??

God sees it more than just immoral, He sees it as an abomination. To get the best answers that will answer your hearts question, you will have to talk with God and believe that still small voice and what He is telling you.

Sorry, this isn't an answer, just a reaffirmation of the original proposition. And I find it difficult to talk to non-existant entities. Perhaps you could do it for me, and let me know what he says?
 
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visionary

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Sorry, this isn't an answer, just a reaffirmation of the original proposition. And I find it difficult to talk to non-existant entities. Perhaps you could do it for me, and let me know what he says?
Already did... You got to meet Him. It will make all the diference in the world. You are asking us why God, and then when we quote God, you say He is non-existent... Can't have it both ways. He exists. He stated His Position. You exist. You have stated yours. Yours opposes His. He wins.
Change sides before time is up.
 
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HaloHope

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Homosexuality as God sees it.

God declares it is an abomination.


Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

WHY??

God sees it more than just immoral, He sees it as an abomination. To get the best answers that will answer your hearts question, you will have to talk with God and believe that still small voice and what He is telling you.

Well thats totally not convinced me whatsoever. Thank you.
 
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Andreusz

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Already did... You got to meet Him. It will make all the diference in the world. You are asking us why God, and then when we quote God, you say He is non-existent... Can't have it both ways. He exists. He stated His Position. You exist. You have stated yours. Yours opposes His. He wins.
Change sides before time is up.

The reason I've said 'God' in these posts is because most people on these forums belive in him. If I just said 'you', I would get the answer, 'because God says so', which doesn't satisfy me. I want to know what God's reason is.

Or to put it another way, I want to know what reason you ascribe to the <Staff Edit>.
 
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