Should Christians oppose gay civil marriage?

[BigBadWlf]

Can you point me where anyone is trying to outlaw remarriage after a no-fault divorce? In there a petition anywhere? Is any state considering this?

That is exactly his point

 

[BigBadWlf]

Nothing is a RIGHT. You don't even have a right to live or even to be born (because of abortion). There are no such true things as "rights". You can either try to change the society in a legal way, or have a revolution. Our "rights" are determined by the people who make the laws. "Rights" are only agreed upon by societies.

So what are you thinking?

That the constitution governing the United States grants its citizens rights including the right to equal protection and equal access under the law and that these rights cannot be voted away. And that includes minorities, even unpopular minorities.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Is gay marriage legal in South Africa? If not, you could move to a country where it is legal or try to change the laws in your country.

Actually same gendered marriage is legal in South Africa. It is a very sad statement that the land of apartheid does a better job of protecting the rights of minorities than the United States.


Would you have suggested that blacks of the pre-civil rights era leave the country to obtain their constitutionally protected rights?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I could give you a dozen reasons, none of which you would accept. What I am mainly writing about is that statement that you are a soldier in your siggie. God bless you and thank you for your service.

I'm very interested to hear any of your dozen purely secular reasons to consider civil union for homosexuals a bad thing, but that aside, thanks for the for the uniform

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Nothing is a RIGHT. You don't even have a right to live or even to be born (because of abortion). There are no such true things as "rights". You can either try to change the society in a legal way, or have a revolution. Our "rights" are determined by the people who make the laws. "Rights" are only agreed upon by societies.

So what are you thinking?

A rather dismal view of life...but hey, it's your life.

We are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights...that is what I believe.

 

[KCKID]

I say this because a literal reading of the New Testament (mind you I am not a literalist, but I am using literalism to make my point, because most of the Christians that would strongly oppose gay marriage probably are) provides a couple morally acceptable bases for divorce and remarriage, one of which has nothing to do with "fault."

That is why I specifically mentioned "no-fault" divorce. On a literalist reading of the Bible, someone who has been divorced "by mutual consent" should not be allowed to remarry. Literalist Christians claim that they oppose all forms of sin equally, and Matthew 19:9 states that remarriage after divorce (with the exceptions you mention) is adultery. But I don't see Christians clamouring for laws to prevent such remarriage, which is why I consider them to be hypocrites. I am sorry if I have offended you. (But as you say, you are not a literalist Christian!)

Sorry guys, but my understanding from the scriptures is that remarriage is not permissable under ANY circumstance other than one of the spouses dies. Divorce - yes. Remarriage - no. I believe that the scriptures that do condemn remarriage have received the 'blind eye' treatment by many Christians because divorce and remarriage is so common within the church. They would lose many members if the 'adultery' tag were 'enforced' or spoken against. Having said that, there ARE ministers that refuse to perform remarriages.

Anyway, NO Christian who supports (or ignores) unscriptural remarriage should have anything untoward to say about homosexuality. If they do then they are guilty of hypocrisy. And, this is the whole point behind the gauntlet thrown down by Andreusz. The problem is that the gauntlet will probably be ignored by most and the hypocrisy will continue in the form of 'gay bashing'.

 

[Andreusz]

Is gay marriage legal in South Africa? If not, you could move to a country where it is legal or try to change the laws in your country.

A simple Google search would show you that it is. I am not concerned for myself, but for the oppressed in other countries.

 

[Andreusz]

Can you point me where anyone is trying to outlaw remarriage after a no-fault divorce? In there a petition anywhere? Is any state considering this?

Not as far as I know. This is why I suspect that Christians who oppose gay marriage (or even homosexuality in general) are not being entirely honest. They say they regard all sins as equal, but they are not making any fuss about remarriage after no-fault divorce, which Jesus himself proclaims to be 'adultery' and therefore a sin (Matthew ch. 19).

In the ethics section of this board, there are no forums discussing the question of remarriage after no-fault divorce, which suggests to me that even literalist Christians don't really care about it.

 

[David Brider]

There is a lot of debate, on these subforums and in other places on the Internet, on whether gay marriage should be allowed. It is clear from these forums that many Christians believe that gay marriage has no place in church. It is also clear that some Christians disagree with them. However, that is not the topic I wish to discuss.

What I would like to ask is whether there is any justification for Christians opposing gay marriage in civil (secular) society. The people of California will soon be voting on this question, and it will eventually be debated throughout the United States. Most gay people regard marriage as a civil right that has been denied to them. However, some Christians believe that gay marriage should be disallowed, even in civil society (e.g. the people of MassAction, Concerned Women for America, Americans for Truth, David Daubenmire). Why shouldn't same-sex couples be allowed to marry, provided that the law does not force churches to marry such couples if those churches do not want to do this?

If you respond, could you please refrain from saying that if same-sex marriage is allowed, then the next step would be to allow marriage between a human and an animal? This argument is often made, and it is ridiculous. Animals cannot be consenting partners in a marriage, while two adult human beings can. And could you also refrain from comparing homosexuality to pedophilia? I am talking about consensual relations between adults. Thank you. I look forward to seeing what people have to say.

In all honesty? No, I don't think Christians should oppose gay marriage. I'm all in favour of those Christians who genuinely believe that homosexuality and/or gay marriage are wrong being entitled to the freedom to have those beliefs, and to express them in public, but unless the right of same-gender couples to marry somehow impinges on those Christians (which it doesn't), then to oppose that right seems petty in the extreme.

I also think that those Christians who are opposed to homosexuality and/or gay marriage should be honest and accept that their view is not the only one even within Christianity. Like I said - they have the right to their views. But they don't have the right for their views to trample on the rights of other people. Sadly, I get the impression that that's what some of them want. However, in a multi-faith society, a theocracy would be a very bad thing indeed. And yes, I'm speaking as a Christian.

 

[nat.alia]

Read about Sodom and Homorra and decide

 

[HaloHope]

Read about Sodom and Homorra and decide

You mean that story about God destroying a city due to inhospitality (see Ezekiel) and for a mob attempting to gang rape angels?

Nothing about homosexual civil partnerships (or indeed religious marriage) there.

 

[David Brider]

Read about Sodom and Homorra and decide

I curious - what do you think that Sodom and Gomorrah have to do with gay marriage?

David.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Read about Sodom and Homorra and decide

Just read about them, no mention of homosexual marriage anywhere

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Triple jinx!

 

[Andreusz]

Read about Sodom and Homorra and decide

I'm not really asking for a discussion of Christian belief about this topic -- there is plenty of discussion of this in other threads in this subforum. Rather, I'm asking how far Christians feel that their beliefs should be allowed to impinge on the rights of others, who do not necessarily share those beliefs.

And anyway, I don't make decisions based on ancient Hebrew mythology. You might as well say, 'Read the story of Zeus appearing in Danae's chamber in the form of a shower of gold, and then decide.'

 

[Andreusz]

I curious - what do you think that Sodom and Gomorrah have to do with gay marriage?

David.

On another thread there was a long debate on exactly what the men of Sodom wanted with the angels. Now we know. They wanted to marry them.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

And anyway, I don't make decisions based on ancient Hebrew mythology. You might as well say, 'Read the story of Zeus appearing in Danae's chamber in the form of a shower of gold, and then decide.'

I've always found that to be VERY suspicious religious imagery, far more so than assorted bulls (Europa) or Swans (Leda)

 

[visionary]

Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination:..


I oppose the recognition of gay marriages within the framework of the church institution. Civil marriages through the public court system is up to the governement to decide. I do stand on God's opinion.. that it is an abomination. I would pray that this sexual demon is cast out before it rules our country. I am also of the opinion that it is one of the signs of the times and pray more fervently "Lord Come Quickly".

 

[Andreusz]

I've always found that to be VERY suspicious religious imagery, far more so than assorted bulls (Europa) or Swans (Leda)

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination:..


I oppose the recognition of gay marriages within the framework of the church institution. Civil marriages through the public court system is up to the governement to decide. I do stand on God's opinion.. that it is an abomination. I would pray that this sexual demon is cast out before it rules our country. I am also of the opinion that it is one of the signs of the times and pray more fervently "Lord Come Quickly".

Shellfish too?