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Should Christians oppose gay civil marriage?

KCKID

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I oppose it, because same sex marriage is against the laws of God as is same sex unions.The homosexual act is an abomination to the Lord.

Why?

And, by the way, profaning the Sabbath is an abomination to the Lord. Did you honor the seventh-day Sabbath yesterday (Saturday)? If not then you are subject to being stoned to death. The problem is that you appear to be selective about which of God's 'abominations' you choose to target.

People are free under some secular laws in different states to marry and the homosexual act is not unlawful under secular laws in some countries but there are many countries where homosexuality is illegal.

And is this illegality based on religious beliefs? If so, and the religion is not Christian, do you support the other tenets of that unChristian religion? If not, why not? Selectivity again?

Under Gods law it is illegal and as a Christian I believe that those who disobey Gods laws will have to answer to Him on judgement day.

However, you are SELECTIVE in regard to which of God's laws we are to be obedient to. Do you see a homosexual as deserving of a greater penalty than one who is disobedient to the 4th-command? Do you see a homosexual as deserving of a greater penalty than a heterosexual who remarries and is therefore guilty of adultery?

If you respond I'm sure you'll come up with some 'same-old' rhetoric from the Pauline scriptures about the 4th-command (don't know about the 'adultery' example) being of no further use to Christians but I don't buy that. Does that make me wrong and you right? Do you realize that one cannot rigidly enforce obedience to the law of God on others without coming unstuck one's self?
 
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KCKID

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Some may find this of interest. I got the following from:

http://hubpages.com/hub/Should-Heterosexuals-Be-Legally-Allowed-to-Marry

What Is Marriage Anyway?

For most of recorded history, marriage has been a ritual property exchange with political overtones. Fathers arranged marriages for their daughters, brokering the arrangement with an older, established man who could offer the family the best longterm alliance, then throwing in a cow and a couple of sheep or whatever else was necessary to close the deal. It was difficult to say which was more vital: the woman or the number of sheep. That depended on the status of the bride's family, the status of the potential groom, and lots of other intangibles having to do with the politics of daily life and money.

So, for all the hoopla about the sanctity of marriage, historically it has been more akin to selling a used car. You want to unload the thing at the best possible price, but you don't want the buyer showing up on your doorstep at any future time complaining about being sold a lemon. You might need his help some day. It's a man to man transaction, forged in the fire of social commerce and tempered by all the subtleties of testosterone.
But what about the Christian Church? Surely marriage was created by the Church to be symbolic of the union between Christ and his followers?

Well, not exactly. Here is Bertand Russell on the subject:

Christianity, and more particularly St. Paul, introduced an entirely novel view of marriage, that it existed not primarily for the procreation of children, but to prevent the sin of fornication.... (I Cor. vii. 1-9.) St. Paul makes no mention whatever of children; the biological purpose of marriage appears to him wholly unimportant. This is quite natural, since he imagined that the Second Coming was imminent and that the world would soon come to an end. At the Second Coming men were to be divided into sheep and goats, and the only thing of real importance was to find oneself among the sheep on that occasion.

St. Paul holds that sexual intercourse, even in marriage, is something of a handicap in the attempt to win salvation (I Cor. vii. 32-4). Nevertheless it is possible for married people to be saved, but fornication is deadly sin, and the unrepentant fornicator is sure to find himself among the goats. I remember once being advised by a doctor to abandon the practice of smoking, and he said that I should find it easier if, whenever the desire came upon me, I proceeded to suck an acid drop.

It is in this spirit that St. Paul recommends marriage. He does not suggest that it is quite as pleasant as fornication, but he thinks it may enable the weaker brethren to withstand temptation; he does not suggest for a moment that there may be any positive good in marriage, or that affection between husband and wife may be a beautiful and desirable thing, nor does he take the slightest interest in the family; fornication holds the center of the stage in his thoughts, and the whole of his sexual ethics is arranged with reference to it. It is just as if one were to maintain that the sole reason for baking bread is to prevent people from stealing cake.

So, basically, marriage among the early Christians was put forth by St. Paul as a kind of crutch to help followers who couldn't stop fornicating 'get it together' long enough to assure them a place in heaven; As in, "All right, if you MUST keep doing this disgusting sex thing, you can get married. But try to keep your hands off each other until Judgment Day, will you?"
 
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Andreusz

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this thread is about Sodomites and getting their demands met. the Christians lose their rights and the Sodomites gain theirs. :sorry:

Thanks,
hogndog
I thought the constitution of the United States guaranteed freedom and equality of rights. The only 'right' that Christians will lose if gay civil marriage becomes legal is the right to impose their morality on the rest of society. And Christians should no more have such a right than Muslims or Buddhists. I don't find Christian 'morality' very moral, and I have no desire to follow it.

And by the way, the word 'Sodomite' is offensive, except when applied to the inhabitants of that city. But I won't complain to the moderators, because I believe in free speech.
 
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Andreusz

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Let me throw down a gauntlet. Any Christian who opposes gay civil marriage, and is not prepared to petition against the laws which allow remarriage after no-fault divorce, is a hypocrite. You say you hate all sins equally, but you actually hate homosexuality more than anything else.
 
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KCKID

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Let me throw down a gauntlet. Any Christian who opposes gay civil marriage, and is not prepared to petition against the laws which allow remarriage after no-fault divorce, is a hypocrite. You say you hate all sins equally, but you actually hate homosexuality more than anything else.

This is what I've been saying over and over for a long time. Probably the best response, if any, you will get from Christians on this board re your throwing down the gauntlet will be akin to ..."But this subforum is about homosexuality and NOT divorce and remarriage." MY response to them will be akin to ..."Yes, that's true, but the gauntlet thrown down has to do with your SELECTIVITY in regard to 'the sins' you petition against."

If I dare mention the name Floatingaxe without getting myself into trouble with the mods, I have YET to see Floatingaxe refer to divorce and remarriage as being a grave sexual sin according to the Bible. And yet the Bible is most clear on this. Furthermore, whereas Jesus had NOTHING to say about homosexuality, He had plenty to say about adultery as in 'remarriage'. Strange that, isn't it?
 
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EnemyPartyII

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This is what I've been saying over and over for a long time. Probably the best response, if any, you will get from Christians on this board re your throwing down the gauntlet will be akin to ..."But this subforum is about homosexuality and NOT divorce and remarriage." MY response to them will be akin to ..."Yes, that's true, but the gauntlet thrown down has to do with your SELECTIVITY in regard to 'the sins' you petition against."

If I dare mention the name Floatingaxe without getting myself into trouble with the mods, I have YET to see Floatingaxe refer to divorce and remarriage as being a grave sexual sin according to the Bible. And yet the Bible is most clear on this. Furthermore, whereas Jesus had NOTHING to say about homosexuality, He had plenty to say about adultery as in 'remarriage'. Strange that, isn't it?

-4-3-2-1-... REPORT BUTTON ENGAGED!
 
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dies-l

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Let me throw down a gauntlet. Any Christian who opposes gay civil marriage, and is not prepared to petition against the laws which allow remarriage after no-fault divorce, is a hypocrite. You say you hate all sins equally, but you actually hate homosexuality more than anything else.

I agree with the sentiment that you are getting at (i.e., that many Christians will sadly single out homosexuality, while turning a blind eye to other "sins"), but I think the comparison that you are trying to make is not a completely fair one. I say this because a literal reading of the New Testament (mind you I am not a literalist, but I am using literalism to make my point, because most of the Christians that would strongly oppose gay marriage probably are) provides a couple morally acceptable bases for divorce and remarriage, one of which has nothing to do with "fault." Namely, the NT specifically allows divorce (and subsequent remarriage) in cases of marital infidelity (which is fault-based, so is not directly contrary to your assertion) and where a non-believer abandons a believer after his or her conversion (1 Cor 7:12-16). On the other hand, there are no such excpetions for homosexual behavior in a literal reading of the NT.

Like I said. I agree that we should not single out homosexuality as worse than anything else. I personally don't have any strong feelings one way or the other as to whether gay marriage should be legal. If there were a referendum on it in my state, I would likely vote in favor of it, depending of course on how exactly the consequent law would be worded, but this is not an issue that I feel strongly enough about to vehemently support or oppose. I do, however, take some objection to the fact that, in order to make your point about homosexuality, you would make such claims about biblical teachings on remarriage, especially considering that your faith icon (i.e., atheist) would reasonably lead one to believe that you do not follow biblical teachings to begin with.
 
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dies-l

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Sodom_and_Gomorrah.jpg


Referring to abortion as "genocide" shouldn't it be "murder" but this thread is about Sodomites and getting their demands met. It worked in Canada and look at what's happened, a church was turned in for a sermon about Sodom and Gomorrah when the authorities got involved the congregation had to move across the border into the United States, "The Reason" in Canada its considered a hate crime to talk about how God destroyed those cities for their wickedness, now everything has gone in reverse, the Christians lose their rights and the Sodomites gain theirs. :sorry:

Thanks,
hogndog


I just wanted to reiterate the request that you back up your factual claim about the church in Canada with some specific verifiable facts. Otherwise, one might be inclined to think that your claim is merely the product of urban legend (or worse, outright lying) to create a fictional argument for your cause.

And by the way, the word 'Sodomite' is offensive, except when applied to the inhabitants of that city. But I won't complain to the moderators, because I believe in free speech.

Of course it is offensive. That is why he used it. It makes life easier when we can dehumanize people that we disagree with. After all, if he can paint homosexuals as being somehow less than human, he doesn't have to base his arguments on logic, reason, or Scripture, and more importantly he doesn't have to care about the human element of his arguments, because in his mind, there are none. This is the same basic type of thought that has historically been used by racist groups and other extremists throughout history. But, I agree with you; he is free to say whatever he wants, and reporting him isn't likely to change his mind.
 
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Andreusz

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I say this because a literal reading of the New Testament (mind you I am not a literalist, but I am using literalism to make my point, because most of the Christians that would strongly oppose gay marriage probably are) provides a couple morally acceptable bases for divorce and remarriage, one of which has nothing to do with "fault."

That is why I specifically mentioned "no-fault" divorce. On a literalist reading of the Bible, someone who has been divorced "by mutual consent" should not be allowed to remarry. Literalist Christians claim that they oppose all forms of sin equally, and Matthew 19:9 states that remarriage after divorce (with the exceptions you mention) is adultery. But I don't see Christians clamouring for laws to prevent such remarriage, which is why I consider them to be hypocrites. I am sorry if I have offended you. (But as you say, you are not a literalist Christian!)
 
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Polycarp1

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Dies3l -- I for one appreciate the nuanced approach you are taking in trying to facilitate communication in this thread. I do have some points to make relative to your posts.

First, a national referendum as you suggested would in fact be unconstitutional, as a SCOTUS decision would not, because of the wording of the Constitution. Specifically, the Tenth Amendment. Congress has those powers, and only those powers, granted it in the text of the Constitution -- including the Interstate Commerce and Elastic Clauses, and Section Five of Amendment XIV. Marriage is a prerogative of the States; all Congress can do is to mandate an even unified standard by which each state gives legal recognition to marriages contracted under the laws of another state. It may not ban gay marriages nationwide (except by Constitutional amendment); it may not provide for a referendum on the subject. It's ultra vires -- beyond Congress's legal power.

On the other hand, if the argument that gay marriages are legal under the Equal Protection Clause is valid, then (1) it is emphatically the business of the courts to protect that right, just like any other right. If the Town Council of Atheistville passed an ordinance making all prayer illegal in town, the courts would throw that out as a violation of the First Amendment. (Amusingly, the ACLU would be among the first to institute that suit. The same would hold with reference to gay marriage. Earlier, some (male) CF member commented to another (gay mle) CF member that they had equal right already: the right to marry the consenting woman of his choice. I found it interesting to note that nobody observed at the time that Texas Lynn and Enemy Party have, or should have, the same right under law if we as Americans do in fact have equal rights -- each should have the right to marry the consenting woman of her choice. If they are not equal before the law with the commenting member and the person he addressed, then there is in fact an equal protection violation

But (2) Congress would also be empowered to make a legislative finding that the Equal Protection clause is in fact implicated, and in consequence they could adopt a national standard permitting gay marriages, by their power under Amendment XIV, Section 5. The reverse, however, banning gay marriages, is not an exercise of their enforcement power under that article, and unsupported by any other constitutional provision.

The interracial marriage decision, Loving v. Virginia, in place 40 years this summer, is very much on point. The Chief Justice was called on to determine if Virginia's law barring whites from marrying non-whites, and the reverse, was in fact illegal. He found it to be a violation of the Equal Protection Clause -- because he established, by judicial fiat, that marriage is a fundamental right, presumably one of the unenumerated rights. From the perspective of both the "defense of marriage" crowd and the pro-gay-marriage crowd, it's a brilliant move. Would it be legal for a state to completely abolish marriage, prohibit any legal marriages within its bounds? Everyoine, I hope, would say, "of course not!" Hence it is in fact universally perceived as a fundamental right. Not interracial marriage or gay marriage, mind you, just the basic concept that John and Mary are free to marry under reasonable limitations (not close relatives, of age, single....). And that being the case, to prohibit two persons who wish to marry from marrying on the basis of race violates the Equal Protection Clause.

In passing, the polygamy issue brought up earlier is invalid. The essence of a marriage contract as seen by law is to commit oneself exclusively to one other person. To say that already being married constitutes a bar to contracting another marriage is to recognize that basic commitment.
 
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Chaplain David

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Some Christians don't think that homosexuals should be allowed to get married. OK, in the denominations and churches that such Christians control, well, fair enough.

But in purely secular terms, why should anyone oppose homosexual marriage being recognised as a legal institution?

Can anyone come up with even the vaguest convincing reason? And no, "the Bible SEZ!" is not a convincing reason, especially when discussing what the secular government is going to do.
I could give you a dozen reasons, none of which you would accept. What I am mainly writing about is that statement that you are a soldier in your siggie. God bless you and thank you for your service.
 
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Kerwin

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Dies13" said:
The word "rape" implies some amount of resistance on the part of the woman.

I have heard of plenty of cases where the woman cried “rape” and did not resist the actual act. To be rape only means a sexual act occurred without the woman’s consent. Some apply the term to men in cases where a man does not give his consent.

Dies13" said:
All that said, the last thing I would ever do if my wife, my mother, or my sister were raped (God forbid) is to say, "Well, I guess you should have resisted better."

The words “resisted better” imply you did not understand what I said. I want to point out that the police are always advising people to be alert to their surrounding in order to avoid be assaulted and robbed. So if your brother is assaulted and robbed do you tell him “Well, I guess you should have been more alert”.

Dies13" said:
Godwin's law; 5 points for me!

Doesn’t apply as it is a valid and sound comparison. -10,000 points to you!

Dies13" said:
Genocide:the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Blacks are killed at a rate of three times that of Whites. It is a good way to cull the minorities and the poor. The government even subsidizes it.

Dies13" said:
Whether abortion is murder is another discussion for another forum (i.e. 'debates on abortion.') …

Sounds right to me
 
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Hentenza

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Let me throw down a gauntlet. Any Christian who opposes gay civil marriage, and is not prepared to petition against the laws which allow remarriage after no-fault divorce, is a hypocrite. You say you hate all sins equally, but you actually hate homosexuality more than anything else.

Can you point me where anyone is trying to outlaw remarriage after a no-fault divorce? In there a petition anywhere? Is any state considering this?
 
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marksman315

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You fail to understand that gay marriage laws DON'T GOVERN STRAIGHT PEOPLE>

Of course it's a basic right - what are you thinking, man?!

Nothing is a RIGHT. You don't even have a right to live or even to be born (because of abortion). There are no such true things as "rights". You can either try to change the society in a legal way, or have a revolution. Our "rights" are determined by the people who make the laws. "Rights" are only agreed upon by societies.

So what are you thinking?
 
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OllieFranz

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Let me throw down a gauntlet. Any Christian who opposes gay civil marriage, and is not prepared to petition against the laws which allow remarriage after no-fault divorce, is a hypocrite. You say you hate all sins equally, but you actually hate homosexuality more than anything else.

Can you point me where anyone is trying to outlaw remarriage after a no-fault divorce? In there a petition anywhere? Is any state considering this?

No, there is not, and that is Andreusz' point. Adultery, divorce and re-marriage are very clearly condemned in the New Testament -- far more clearly than homosexuality appears to be, and some of that condemnation comes from Jesus' own words, and there are studies showing their harmful effects on the family that Christians and non-Christians can agree on. And yet even the Conservatives in the Church seem to be OK with the state allowing them. They even perform marriage services for the adulterers.

If the attack on gays were really about preserving the family, there should be an even greater movement to change the laws concerning adultery, divorce, and re-marriage.
 
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marksman315

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Let me throw down a gauntlet. Any Christian who opposes gay civil marriage, and is not prepared to petition against the laws which allow remarriage after no-fault divorce, is a hypocrite. You say you hate all sins equally, but you actually hate homosexuality more than anything else.

Is gay marriage legal in South Africa? If not, you could move to a country where it is legal or try to change the laws in your country.
 
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BigBadWlf

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It should be put to a vote because it is NOT A BASIC RIGHT.
Sorry but marriage is a right and one protected by the constitution

“The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.”
“Marriage is one of the basic civil rights of man, fundamental to our very existence and survival.”
“Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry…resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.”
All quotes by Chief Justice Warren writing for the court in the unanimous Supreme Court decision in Loving vs. the Commonwealth of Virginia


I prefer to live in a democracy or a republic where people have a voice about the laws that govern them.

Why should the rights of a minority living in a democracy/republic whose laws specifically guarantee that they are equal to the majority have their rights put to a vote?

Can you explain why YOU should have the special right to vote away the rights of minorities? Why does your right to hate trump the rights of any minority to have equal protection and equal access under the law?
 
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BigBadWlf

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I could give you a dozen reasons, none of which you would accept. What I am mainly writing about is that statement that you are a soldier in your siggie. God bless you and thank you for your service.

Just because I like poking sticks at hornets nests….how many of “dozen reasons” you could give as justification for discrimination against same gendered couples were used to defend discrimination against interracial couples?
 
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