What happened to the Cherubim outside Eden

[Terral]

Hi Shernren:

If Eden was destroyed why would angels be posted to guard it?

First of all, an ‘angel’ is the greater/superior half of a man from the ‘heavens’ like a man is the greater/superior half of a woman (1Peter 3:7). Man has the image and glory OF GOD (spirit witness) and woman has the image OF MAN (1Cor 11:7). The angels (many are incarnate among us = Heb. 13:2) are typically the Lord God’s ‘messengers,’ as the Hebrew (mal’ak #4397) and Greek (aggelos #32) terms for ‘angel’ and ‘messenger’ are the very same word. Cherubim (k@ruwb #3742) are ‘guardians/protectors’ given great power and authority part of a completely separate ‘dispensation’ under God positioned purposely FAR above the auspices of men. The members of our mystery church (Body of Christ) shall judge the world (men = water witnesses) and their angelic super-halves (1Cor. 6:2-3), but shall NEVER have the opportunity to pass judgment upon a single cherub to the end of time itself. Secondly, the Lord God’s cherubim are guarding ‘The Way’ to the Tree of Life, which represents a ‘passageway’ connecting the heavens (spirit witness), heaven (blood witness) and earth (water witness physical/visible realm) that previously (before the fall) DID NOT EVEN EXIST. The Original “Eden” (Gen. 2:8) had no ‘heavens’ or ‘heaven’ or ‘earthly’ division, because those three witnesses were the VERY SAME THING in the same way that “The Word” was “ONE” containing the Father, Son and Holy Spirit ‘and’ Adam was “ONE” containing Adam, her seed and Eve.

Adam had no spirit, soul or body in the time of Genesis 2:7, because those three witnesses were also the VERY SAME THING ‘and’ the Lord God’s (Christ’s) “son of God” (Luke 3:38) was made for Eden ‘and’ Eden was made (Gen. 2:8) for the Singularity Expression “man sent from God.” Adam was created to represent the heavens, heaven and earth, when those three witnesses were “ONE” and the very SAME THING ‘before’ the great deluge of Genesis 1:2 in a time ‘before time’ when there was no such thing as an angel or men. Why? Because again, woman was still IN man ‘and’ man was still “ONE” with the angels; as the perfect singularity expression hosts of Genesis 1:1. Adam ‘and’ Eden of Genesis 2:7-8 were created ‘unique’ to anything that existed in this now ‘broken’ triune universe, as “Heaven On Earth” where the heavens, heaven and earth were joined back together by the hand of the Lord God Himself. Adam lived as a ‘heavenly’ host for a VERY LONG TIME in his perfect singularity form, before Eve (water witness) and her seed (blood witness) were taken from his side (Gen. 3:20-22) in preparation of being subjected to futility.

Eden became ‘triune’ and ‘divided’ and subjected to the same futility as Creation (Rom. 8:20-22) in the very same day that the Lord God took Eve (water) and her seed (blood) from Adam’s side, which is typified by the blood and water coming from Christ’s side on the cross at Calvary (John 19:34). Isaiah 53 is written in the ‘past tense,’ because the prophet is speaking about your father Adam being sacrificed by his Eternal Father (Isa. 9:6) in the very same way that the Last Adam would also be sacrificed by His Father for the forgiveness of sins. All of this means that “The Word” was destroyed (pierced/ saw death) to become the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the same way that Adam was destroyed to become Adam, her seed and Eve ‘and’ Eden was destroyed the very same way to NOW possess a heavens, heaven and earth triune nature like everything else in this broken universe. The Father and Holy Spirit will eventually be subjected back to “The Son” (1Cor. 15:27) like ‘All’ triune hosts will be summed up into their original singularity expression forms (like the earth and heavens into Christ = Eph. 1:9-10), which means Eden will also put on immortality to once again become a singularity expression host where all three are rejoined into the One. However, until that time, the passageways connecting the inner chambers of that heavenly tabernacle will be protected/guarded by the hosts called to exist and stationed there by the Lord God Himself for that very purpose of ensuring ONLY those called to “The Way” are allowed passage.

Guards normally guard valuable things from people who want to obtain said valuable things inappropriately. Why should angels guard Eden if there wasn't an Eden to go back to?

It is not that the Lord God’s Cherubim are guarding “Eden,” but they are guarding ‘The Way’ through the “True Tabernacle” above leading to the Spirit of the Tree of Life. When I say “Eden (Tabernacle of Adam/David = diagram = on left) was destroyed back in Genesis 3 with the fall and the curses of Genesis 3:15-19.” (Post #2), then my statement is about the existence of the ‘singularity expression’ coming to an abrupt END, so the ‘triune’ hosts of spirit, blood and water are called into being. Man today has a spirit (spirit witness), soul (blood witness) and physical body (water witness), but those are temporal hosts for yet another singularity expression host that was also ‘destroyed’ when “The Earth” of Genesis 1:1 became formless and void (Gen. 1:2). Therefore, the singularity expression “Eden” is currently ‘pierced’ like Adam, Christ on the cross and all the three witness mystery sets of Scripture, until those three are put back together by God; so He can once again be “all in all” (1Cor. 15:28). Abraham’s Promised Land (Gen. 15:18) is the remnant water witness host of “Eden” with David’s Kingdom (Eze. 37:24-28) representing the very same thing (Eze. 47-48). This Creation will be remade MANY times (like in Rev. 21:1+) between all the ‘ages to come,’ until the heavens, heaven and earth are all ONE once again ‘and’ there is no need for the Lord God’s Cherubim to stand guard along the passageways leading through the inner chambers of His True Tabernacle leading to Christ's and God's Thrones.

The mission of the angels makes sense only if there was still an Eden, and furthermore, an Eden still so attractive to go back to that the only deterrent strong enough would be cherubim with snickety-sharp (and burning, at that) blades.

The Tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-18) is the Tabernacle of Adam that has fallen ‘and’ must be restored and rebuilt to ‘begin’ the process of the restoration of “all things.” Matt. 17:10-11, Acts 3:21. Go back and reread the accounts of “David” being restored as ‘prince’ (Eze. 34:22-25) and yet again as ‘king’ forever (Eze. 37:24-28 = Jer. 30:7-9) to realize the Lord God is raising up His “son of God” from the Garden of Eden; so that he and the Garden can become “One” once again. This reconstitution process will take a VERY long time, as this creation is remade again and again and again throughout all the ages to come. As the heavens, heaven and earth are summed up into Christ, THEN Eden will also come back into existence to represent the place where those three realms meet and become the very same thing. Until then, you must be satisfied with the ‘water witness’ expression of David’s Kingdom on Earth in the same way men must be happy with the physical bodies with an invisible spirit and soul. The time for angels and men and women to once again become the very same thing (like in Gen. 1:1) is still FAR in the future for all the very same reasons.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[shernren]

Suffice to say that Scripture itself repudiates your views:

After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
(Genesis 3:24 NIV, emphasis added)

The guarding position of the angels was clearly geographically associated with Eden; why should the angels be posted "east of Eden" if there was no longer an Eden to be east of, and why should this physical location of their posting be mentioned in the same verse as "the way to the tree of life" unless this way was, actually, a way that passed through the east side of Eden?

Furthermore, it is Scripturally nonsensical to speak of the subjection to futility in Romans 8:20-22 as a concurrent event with the creation of Eve in Genesis 2. The creation of Eve is portrayed as happening in a sinless state, evidenced by the lack of shame (Gen 2:25); the subjection of creation to futility must be concomitant with man's fall into sin, which only happens after the divine creation (and pleasure! See Genesis 1:26-21, where God blesses them and says of them that they are "very good") of man, and not simultaneously.

In addition, you twist Scripture to your detriment. I have neither time nor patience to sift through your errors but the most glaring error you display is in your understanding of the Trinity. You seem to understand the current state of God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit to somehow be inferior to a previous state of "The Word" which was subsequently "destroyed" to produce the Trinity as we know it. However, it is clear from the Scriptural introduction of The Word in John 1 that this cannot have happened: the Word is both "with God" (meaning that His existence must be somehow ontologically separable from that of "God") and "God" Himself; furthermore, this same Word (not some kind of fragmented, destroyed, or pierced Word) took on flesh and dwelt among us.

You quote 1 Cor. 15:27; do you not know what it says?

For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
(1 Corinthians 15:27-28 NIV, emphases added)

This can hardly mean that "the Father and the Spirit will eventually be subjected back to the Son"!

I hope and pray that you will study Scripture well and hard, and that you will abandon the erroneous filters you read Scripture through. Why should the creation of woman be inferior to when man was undivided? (Tell that to my girlfriend!) Why should the Trinity unique in role and person (though united in perichoresis and substance) be inferior to some kind of unified, agglutinated "Word" in which they are all subsumed? Such value judgments seem to me to be more befitting to the mystery Eastern religions, with their emphasis on differences being illusory and all being the true Brahma or similar pantheistic thoughts. But God values diversity in unity, differences towards one common goal: He is the Lord who made all different kinds of life, desiring that they maintain their created uniqueness instead of being hubristically hybridized by people who couldn't possibly have known better (see the Levitical laws).

But if you cannot agree with me on these matters in which I judge you to be gravely erroneous, I hope you will at least assent to John's declaration:

This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
(1 John 4:2-3 NIV)

Is Jesus the Christ - that is, the Messiah prophesied of old and present today to cleanse the sins of all who believe in Him?
Has Jesus Christ come in the flesh - that is, did He truly take on human form so that, being fully God, He was also fully man?
Has Jesus Christ come in the flesh from God - not only that, but is He also the only begotten (monogenes, John 3:16) of God, the Son in the Trinity, fully God?

If you can answer yes to the three questions above, I accept your fellowship and leave it to heaven to sort out the rest of our disagreements - for I find little in your thoughts to admire or agree with otherwise. Perhaps I am not spiritually informed enough. I only hope for your own sake that this is the case.

 

[juvenissun]

Maybe it was like this ...

... except in the infrared, or something. Ooh, ooh! Science in the Bible!

What kind of weapon angels use to fight each other? (good ones vs. bad ones)

 

[Terral]

Hi Shernren:

If you are going to write a rebuttal to anything contained in my work, then please have the courage and conviction to place my name atop your reply. Otherwise your post might not be read at all, which was likely your motivation in the first place. :0)

Suffice to say that Scripture itself repudiates your views:

After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. (Genesis 3:24 NIV, emphasis added)

The guarding position of the angels was clearly geographically associated with Eden; why should the angels be posted "east of Eden" if there was no longer an Eden to be east of, and why should this physical location of their posting be mentioned in the same verse as "the way to the tree of life" unless this way was, actually, a way that passed through the east side of Eden?

Why is Shernren asking questions rather than making accurate statements and a case? :0) The very first mention of any ‘angel’ in Scripture is a reference to the “angel of the Lord” in Genesis 16:7, so please revise your errant statements accordingly. Your ‘geographically associated with Eden’ reference is meaningless, unless you would like to point that out on any map. :0) You are pretending that men walk back and forth in front of the Lord God’s cherubim and that Eden remains intact somewhere on this earth, which is great news if your interpretation had any basis in reality. BTW, Scripture says exactly what I am saying to a Tee, when the right context is applied and the appropriate spirit, blood and water witnesses are correctly identified. The fact is that Shernren’s ‘interpretation’ says something different from mine. :0)

Furthermore, it is Scripturally nonsensical to speak of the subjection to futility in Romans 8:20-22 as a concurrent event with the creation of Eve in Genesis 2. The creation of Eve is portrayed as happening in a sinless state, evidenced by the lack of shame (Gen 2:25); the subjection of creation to futility must be concomitant with man's fall into sin, which only happens after the divine creation (and pleasure!)

Pleasure??? :0) What the?? Please forgive, but you do not understand enough about Paul’s “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3, Col. 1:26) to be making these kinds of statements. In fact, I can hardly believe you have even taken the time to research the substance of my work from posts on this thread. Adam and Eve were the same thing in Genesis 2:7 in the same way that the heavens and earth (waters above and below the expanse = Gen. 1:6-8) were the same thing in Genesis 1:1, when every particle of matter in this universe was ‘one thing’ and that one thing was Adam (diagram = blue sphere on the right). The heavens and earth (diagram) of this now ‘broken’ creation are representative of Adam (heavens = Elijah) and Eve (earth = Moses), which places Eve into the ‘image of man’ (helper) position in her relationship to her husband Adam. Therefore, God subjected the entire universe to futility (Rom. 8:20-22) with the great deluge of Gen. 1:2, when the heavens and earth were called into being (Gen. 1:6-7) and ‘heaven’ became the place where the two seas overlap (Gen. 1:8). The physical/visible universe THEN was placed into the ‘water witness’ helper position, which was taken from Adam’s side in the very same way Eve was taken from Adam’s side in Genesis 2:20-22 in his physical incarnation as our garden father. Consider that Eve was left alone with the serpent ‘and’ that Satan’s host was permitted access to beguile her in the first place. Eve was subjected to the same futility as Adam ‘and’ Creation ‘and’ Christ by His Father being sent to Calvary. The fact remains that most of you will not understand what the heck I am even talking about, until we rehash all of these things again and again at the Judgment ‘and’ throughout the ages to come; but that is just “The Way” the old cookie crumbles. :0)

See Genesis 1:26-21, where God blesses them and says of them that they are "very good") of man, and not simultaneously.

Genesis 1:26-28 references “God” creating sixth day men that have walked this earth for millions of years, as evidenced by the fossil remains in the earth (Wiki). The Lord God (Christ) created Adam on the ‘seventh day’ (Gen. 2:4+) to represent this entire universe in one man from God, or this entire universe as one man with Eve and her seed IN him. The sixth day men (beardless races) are the members of Adam’s body, like the little green men flying around in their space ships. However, the seventh day men (bearded races = sons of Noah) are ‘gods’(Ps. 82:6, Jn 10:34) from God’s Infinite Realm (diagram = on left) not to be confused with the sixth day men of Genesis 1. This is the problem of trying to explain Analytical Geometry to those unable to even add and subtract. :0)

In addition, you twist Scripture to your detriment. I have neither time nor patience to sift through your errors but the most glaring error you display is in your understanding of the Trinity.

You guys crack a bible thumper up . . . :0)

You seem to understand the current state of God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit to somehow be inferior to a previous state of "The Word" which was subsequently "destroyed" to produce the Trinity as we know it.

Those of you blinded by Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodoxy and Protestantism (Mystery of Lawlessness) are throwing effort after foolishness, because you do NOT even begin to understand the VAST differences between the “Only True God” (Jn 17:3) and “My Father who is IN HEAVEN” (Matt. 10:32-33), as the ‘spirit witness’ of “The Word.” Here is a brief lesson for you to ignore:

Diagram

God is represented by the perfectly round sphere over on your left from John 1:1 with “The Word” standing in “Heaven” and Adam standing in the “Earth.” There is no such thing as the Father, Son or Holy Spirit, OR the heavens, heaven and the earth, because those triune witnesses are still “ONE” and the same thing inside “The Word/Heaven” and “Adam/Earth.”

Diagram 2

God is again represented by the perfectly round sphere over on your left, but “The Word” has been ‘pierced/destroyed/killed/sacrificed’ in order for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to come into being. Over to His right, you see “The Earth” of Genesis 1:1 has become the heavens, heaven and earth, which represents Adam’s spirit, soul and body respectively (another diagram = Adam on the bottom with head facing the right = heavens). Looking at our Diagram 2 and the “Man of God,” you can see God’s three witnesses from Revelation 1:8 standing beyond the Second Veil (God’s Infinite Realm) with “My Father Who Is IN HEAVEN” representing the ‘spirit witness’ of “Christ Jesus” (F+S+HS) inside the “Realm of the Word,” (Heaven of Gen. 1:2) as the “Blood/Soul” witness of the larger “Man of God.” This Creation (heavens, heaven and earth) is the ‘Water Witness’ Physical Body of the larger “Man of God,” with the ‘earth’ (lowest witness of all) representing our physical universe. If you will take your finger and draw a circle around the “Father” and His “Only Son,” then you will see how “I and the Father are One.” John 10:30. However, if you will then take your finger and draw a circle around the three witnesses of “The Word” AND the three witnesses of “The Almighty” (God To Come, God Who Is, God Who Was), THEN you will see They have the same relationship as the “Only Son” with “My Father Who Is IN HEAVEN.” Those among you worshipping “My Father Who is IN HEAVEN” as “The Almighty” have been tricked by Satan into worshipping something IN HEAVEN (see Ex. 20:4 again) as the Only True God that heaven (Gen. 1:8) ‘and’ the Highest Heaven (Gen. 1:2) cannot even contain (1Kings 8:27). Of course the ‘deluding influence’ (2Thes. 2:11) is forcing you to ‘believe what is false,’ so the substance of my comments fly light years above your deluded heads. :0) The difference is that when you also have ‘the truth’ and know these things by heart, then you also will not give two hoots about what other people think . . .

However, it is clear from the Scriptural introduction of The Word in John 1 that this cannot have happened: the Word is both "with God" (meaning that His existence must be somehow ontologically separable from that of "God") and "God" Himself; furthermore, this same Word (not some kind of fragmented, destroyed, or pierced Word) took on flesh and dwelt among us.

No sir. God and The Word are “ONE” in God’s Infinite Realm, even right this moment as we speak! God called for The Word to ‘incarnate,’ so The Word could call this universe to exist IN Himself ‘and’ hold all things together (Col. 1:15-17). The Word is a mere ‘incarnation’ of THE WORD that is ONE with God in His Infinite Realm, just like this universe is a mere incarnation of the ‘son of God’ that Satan murdered in the same Infinite Realm. Therefore, we have a contextual shift from John 1:1 to John 1:3 describing God and His Word as ONE (John 1:1), ‘and’ The Word being with God (incarnate Word = John 1:2) ‘and’ This Creation/Adam being called to exist IN Him (John 1:3) like this (diagram). God is the Infinite Egg shell, while The Word is the white of the egg ‘and’ Adam/Creation is the yoke held together In Christ (The Word) ‘and’ IN God at the very same time. Jesus Christ is the incarnation of the entire Word Realm in red, while Adam/John the Baptist/Elijah/David is the incarnation of this entire universe contained IN Him.

You quote 1 Cor. 15:27; do you not know what it says?

For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
(1 Corinthians 15:27-28 NIV, emphases added)

This can hardly mean that "the Father and the Spirit will eventually be subjected back to the Son"!

Please forgive, but your impotent commentary is based upon what something ‘can hardly mean’ and upon things that you have no insight or understanding whatsoever. If you understood even the basics of Paul’s “The Mystery” (and you do NOT), then you would realize that ‘all’ the blood witnesses enlarge to sum up ‘all’ the spirit and water witnesses; which means “My Father Who Is IN HEAVEN” and the “Holy Spirit” will eventually be summed back up into “The Son/Word.” :0) This physical universe ‘and’ the heavens will also cease to exist, as ‘heaven’ (the blood witness) enlarges to sum up BOTH. Your physical body and spirit will someday disappear from existence, as your soul enlarges to become the spirit/soul/body all rolled into the one. The very first diagram (here) in my “The Mystery Explained” work (link in signature below) shows how the mystery summing up process works, but only if you have eyes from God to see . . .

I hope and pray that you will study Scripture well and hard, and that you will abandon the erroneous filters you read Scripture through.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Tinker Grey]

Hi Shernren:

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Yeah, I'm sure mocking derisive laughter is "In Christ Jesus".

 

[Mallon]

Yeah, I'm sure mocking derisive laughter is "In Christ Jesus".

At least I can understand pictures of dogs laughing.

 

[shernren]

Ahh, pictures of dogs laughing! I have adblock on my home computer's installation of firefox, and so I didn't quite get the joke. Adblock helps keep gunk off my display, and in this case it cut off part of Terral's reply. Quite an apt metaphor, dontcha think? =)