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So, recruit me

EnemyPartyII

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Seems pretty unisexual to me. Which bit make you think of sex between David and Jonathan because it certainly doesn’t say they had any. It does say David was attracted to and slept with women though.
The relationship between the two men is addressed with the same words and emphasis as loving heterosexual relationships in the Hebrew Testament: e.g. 'ahavah or אהבה (see Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon, Hebrew word #160; Gen. 29:20; 2 Sam. 13:15; Pro. 5:19; Sgs. 2:4-7; Sgs. 3:5-10; Sgs. 5:8) When they are alone together, David confides that he has "found grace in Jonathan's eyes", a phrase normally referring to Romantic or physical attraction. Throughout the passages, David and Jonathan consistently affirm and reaffirm their love and devotion to each other. Jonathan is willing to betray his father, family, wealth, and traditions for David.
The covenant made between the two men strengthens a romantic rather than political or platonic interpretation of their relationship. At their first meeting, Jonathan strips himself before the youth, handing him his clothing, armor, and weapons, remaining naked before him[citation needed]. This is when they first make their covenant, not long after their first meeting (1 Sam. 18:3-4). Each time they reaffirm the covenant, love (though not necessarily sexual in nature) is the only justification provided. Additionally, it should be observed that the covenants and affectionate expressions were made in private, like a personal bond, rather than publicly as would a political bond.
Christians believe the Bible is the word of God,
Really? where's it say that in the Nicene Creed? Heck, not even the Bible makes that claim!

You need to understand that God’s word says it is as demonstrated. You can choose not to accept it if you wish.
Where does God's word say anything of the sort? Chapter and verse where the Bible says "this is the only acceptible model for a marital type relationship"
they are not the most common, the most common implies there are others less common, there aren’t there are NO examples of homosexual practice and unions countenanced. This is the sort of inaccurate false claims the whole of the pro-gay argument is based on.
There are no Chinese people in the Bible, does that mean they aren't countenanced?
Love isn’t sex. Sex is to be within a marriage (1 Corinthians 7) Your ideas on the topic are all your ideas alone, they are non-Biblical and not The Christian position.
You misunderstand... Jesus tells us to love each other as we would be loved... which means "treat other people as you would like to be treated" which means "consider if you would like it if you were the other guy and roles were reversed" right?

OK, so, lets consider the roles reversed... you are a homosexual in love with a consenting partner who you would like to live with in a long term, stable monogomous relationship... would you appreciate it if I, as a heterosexual, condemned you for it?

Well would you?

If your answer is anything but "yes"... then Christs new commandment to humanity tells you to accept homosexuals as they are.
 
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KCKID

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KCKID said:
Hmmm . . .I wonder then if homosexual blacks should get double equal rights or maybe a half an equal right?

You're deiberately twisting my words. Your commitment to the homosexual agenda is obvious. Why are you defending their choice of lifestyle? Are you calling God a liar?

Dang! I should have known that you'd see right through me and my 'gay agenda'.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To EnemypartyII,
Really? where's it say that in the Nicene Creed? Heck, not even the Bible makes that claim!
Nonsense, if the Bible isn’t the word of God then the Nicene claims about God which are taken from the Bible cant be God’s. How great is your unbelief?
And, the Bible does make that claim in a number of places and a number of ways.
2 Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”
Matthew 4:4 “Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "
John 3:34 “For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.”
Where does God's word say anything of the sort? Chapter and verse where the Bible says "this is the only acceptible model for a marital type relationship"
It says what it says not what you demand it to say and if you believed it you wouldn’t demand the word of God to disprove what you want it to say.

There are no Chinese people in the Bible, does that mean they aren't countenanced?
Does it mean they are? What’s your point? As I said your statement was misleading, ‘most common’ implies there are others less common, there aren’t there are NO examples of homosexual practice and unions countenanced. This is the sort of inaccurate false claims the whole of the pro-gay argument is based on.

Love isn’t sex. Sex is to be within a marriage (1 Corinthians 7) Your ideas on the topic are all your ideas alone, they are non-Biblical and not The Christian position.
You misunderstand... Jesus tells us to love each other as we would be loved... which means "treat other people as you would like to be treated" which means "consider if you would like it if you were the other guy and roles were reversed" right?
No it doesn’t, He says love each other as He has loved us, not love them as we think we should love them and love isn’t sex. He also says above all love God and to love God is to obey His teaching. His teaching says God’s purpose in creation is man and woman, or celibacy (Matthew 19, 1 Corinthians 7) so one looks to do that not at other options. This is the context of love your neighbour as yourself, ist nothing to do with having sex with people.


OK, so, lets consider the roles reversed...
Ok for me it is not about us but about Jesus.

its about you are a homosexual in love with a consenting partner who you would like to live with in a long term, stable monogomous relationship... would you appreciate it if I, as a heterosexual, condemned you for it?
water off a ducks back my friend, Jesus has told us that unless we repent we too will perish.

If your answer is anything but "yes"... then Christs new commandment to humanity tells you to accept homosexuals as they are.
It tells me to love one another as Christ loved so that the world may know we are His disciples, and it tells me that He loves me when I do what He teaches. Your ideas are neither what He teaches nor what I am to be judged by.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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2 Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”
which is not the same as "the Bible is the word of God"
Matthew 4:4 “Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "
ditto
John 3:34 “For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.”
ditto.

Hey, I'm a Christian, I believe SOME parts of the Bible really are the word of God. Some parts, though, are Godly inspired writings of men, and some are just old oral traditions pased down across generations which mangled and merged so many ancient stories its hard to know what they are. Nowhere does the Bible claim to be the word of God. Nowhere does the Bible claim to be inerrant or literally correct in its entirety.
It says what it says not what you demand it to say and if you believed it you wouldn’t demand the word of God to disprove what you want it to say.
Huh?
Indeed... it says what it says... and because a NORMATIVE description is the most common way of saying things, it is usual to specify that a proscriptive description is just that. Since the cited passage about divorce is
a. in context about divorce
b. features no caveat to clarify it is intended as a proscriptive description
it really fails as an argument against homosexuality. If you come up with a REAL Bible quote that was intended to mean "homosexually is bad, m'kay?" then sure, I'll believe it. But until that time, its all just your interpretation vs. mine.
Does it mean they are? What’s your point? As I said your statement was misleading, ‘most common’ implies there are others less common, there aren’t there are NO examples of homosexual practice and unions countenanced. This is the sort of inaccurate false claims the whole of the pro-gay argument is based on.
What's inaccurate? I think you are cutting and pasting, cos you aren't really addressing my points... lets try to clarify, shall we?

You: There are no homosexual relationships approved of in the Bible, therefore, homosexual relationships=bad

Me: There are no Chinese people in the Bible, by the same logic, Chinese people=bad?

Please clarify for me why one statement is different to the other, without descending into "misleading pro-gay argument" diatribe.
No it doesn’t, He says love each other as He has loved us, not love them as we think we should love them and love isn’t sex. He also says above all love God and to love God is to obey His teaching. His teaching says God’s purpose in creation is man and woman, or celibacy (Matthew 19, 1 Corinthians 7) so one looks to do that not at other options. This is the context of love your neighbour as yourself, ist nothing to do with having sex with people.
Again, thats just your interpretation, and I think mine is much closer to Christs message but hey, I respect your right to have a different interpretation to mine, I'm not even telling you yours is wrong. How about that?

However, I gotta ask... "His teaching says God’s purpose in creation is man and woman, or celibacy " I think you are shoe horning again... Jesus never taught anything of the sort.
Ok for me it is not about us but about Jesus.
Nonsense... Jesus message is about how to live with each other AS WELL as having a personal relationship with Him... He COMMANDED YOU to consider how your actions will make others feel, and if you would like the roles reversed. Jesus said this, not me. I can see you squirming, because you know that if the roles were reversed, you wouldn't like it. So, you're going to claim to be the one with the genuine understanding of Christs message, yet refuse to live by his Golden Rule because you know it undermines yous stance on homosexuality? You really think thats what Jesus would want?
water off a ducks back my friend, Jesus has told us that unless we repent we too will perish.
Think about it some more.
It tells me to love one another as Christ loved so that the world may know we are His disciples, and it tells me that He loves me when I do what He teaches. Your ideas are neither what He teaches nor what I am to be judged by.
I believe Jesus loves us no matter what we do, his love isn't conditional. However, even though I am a homosexual, I think I have far more to worry about being a soldier as far as Jesus' teachings are concerned... he was pretty adamantly against them, but homosexuals? He never said a word against them. All that love, forgiveness, non-judging, accepting of all comers stuff makes me pretty sure Jesus is cool with my homosexuality.
 
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Polycarp_fan

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Really? where's it say that in the Nicene Creed? Heck, not even the Bible makes that claim!

Good point. Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that a marriage can be between two same-gender people?

Where does God's word say anything of the sort? Chapter and verse where the Bible says "this is the only acceptible model for a marital type relationship"
"Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said,'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."

In reference to "marriage" and what breaks it up.

There are no Chinese people in the Bible, does that mean they aren't countenanced?You misunderstand... Jesus tells us to love each other as we would be loved... which means "treat other people as you would like to be treated" which means "consider if you would like it if you were the other guy and roles were reversed" right?

Encouraging people to sin is the antithesis of love. Jesus also, made that vividly and threateningly clear.

OK, so, lets consider the roles reversed... you are a homosexual in love with a consenting partner who you would like to live with in a long term, stable monogomous relationship... would you appreciate it if I, as a heterosexual, condemned you for it?

Who, or rather, what Christian, Apostle of Messiah, is saying that two same gender persons cannot live in a commited relationship?

If your answer is anything but "yes"... then Christs new commandment to humanity tells you to accept homosexuals as they are.

Please site scriptural support for your position?

"Marriage" as taught by Jesus and the Apostles, was a man and a woman.

Even, in the Apostolic witness, going so far as to be a qualifier for leadership roles in the Church.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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Good point. Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that a marriage can be between two same-gender people?

OK... lets get some consistency shall we?

Is it OK to draw conclusions about God's message by extrapolating from the Bible, and making statements about what God wants that aren't specifically Biblical, or not?

If you want to claim the Bible is the word of God even though the Bible doesn't specifically say this, well, OK, fair enough, I guess, but is it then fair to say that because the Bible never specifically countenances same sex relationships, they=bad? Seems like a double standard. So I tell you what, pick a rule and stick to it, and lets continue.

In reference to "marriage" and what breaks it up.
In reference to divorce, and how it is unacceptible. Its not really an appropriate passage to use in a discussion about homosexuality, because it isn't about homosexuality. Yes, I know it mentions men and women, so its attractive to people who want to find "1man/1woman only" type verses... but it simply isn't a proscription describing what constitutes an acceptible marriage to God. Thats not what its about.
Encouraging people to sin is the antithesis of love. Jesus also, made that vividly and threateningly clear.
Indeed... and how does Jesus tell us to identify sin? By loving our neighbours as ourselves, which means (to me, at least) "if the roles were reversed, would you think the way this guy is treating you was sinful"? And as such, I can't see homosexuality as sinful, although I certainly can see condemnation of homosexuality as sinful.
Who, or rather, what Christian, Apostle of Messiah, is saying that two same gender persons cannot live in a commited relationship?
None... but thats not what is being discussed, the question is, if YOUR relationship was being condemned, would you appreciate it?

Please site scriptural support for your position?
I tole ya already... sermon on the mount, new comandment I give unto you... all of that.

"Marriage" as taught by Jesus and the Apostles, was a man and a woman.
I disagree that their teachings on marriage were intended to be proscriptive, merely normative, referencing the marriage common in that place and time that their contemporary audience could most easily relate to.
Even, in the Apostolic witness, going so far as to be a qualifier for leadership roles in the Church.
Might want to avoid that can of worms... since Paul talks about how multiple wives are not fitting for some, implying they ARE fit for others... whicvh rather debases the whole 1man/1woman POV, nes pas?
 
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Kerwin

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David and Jonathon, Centurion and his servant, and Jesus' sermon on the mount

I heard the argument backing up homosexuality involving the Centurion and his servant and laughed because it is such a illogical argument since it assumes all adult males with boy servants are homosexuals. I doubt very much if someone did a study of every adult male with a boy servant and found out they were all homosexuals. The argument of Jonathon's and David's supposed homosexual relationship is based on homophobia more than anything else since it assumes two men who are closer to each other than they are to women are homosexual. I have not heard the one about the Sermon on the Mount though knowing the other two I am highly skeptical of its soundness and validity.
 
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Andreusz

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I heard the argument backing up homosexuality involving the Centurion and his servant and laughed because it is such a illogical argument since it assumes all adult males with boy servants are homosexuals.

As I understand it, the argument is that in the Greek of the time, to refer to a person as someone's pais meant that they were that person's homosexual lover. I would be interested to know if Greek scholars think this is correct.

The argument of Jonathon's and David's supposed homosexual relationship is based on homophobia more than anything else since it assumes two men who are closer to each other than they are to women are homosexual.

Well, I'm not homophobic, and the argument makes sense to me.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To EnemyPartyII
Sorry my friend but I am unable to communicate with you
which is not the same as "the Bible is the word of God"
How can it not be? Jesus quotes plenty of it, He spoke the words of the Father.

Do you believe God has spoken to humans at all? If so where, when and how?

Some parts, though, are Godly inspired writings of men, and some are just old oral traditions pased down across generations which mangled and merged so many ancient stories its hard to know what they are.
Jesus was the Son of God, spoke the words of the Father and quoted plenty of OT scripture so how can some of the Bible, the words of God recorded in the Bible, not be the words of God?

Hey, I'm a Christian
But your views are not Christian in my opinion as Christians believe the Bible is the word of God.

Indeed... it says what it says... and because a NORMATIVE description is the most common way of saying things,
No idea what you mean. Jesus quotes the scriptures of what God said, ‘normative’? What do you mean by normative? Normative for God to say things like this?


quote] it really fails as an argument against homosexuality. [/quote] It passes because as Jesus tells you God created male and female for this reason, to be united, that rules out homosexual unins being part of His creation and not surprisingly all that is countenanced anywhere are unions between man and woman and same sex ones are condemned.

If you come up with a REAL Bible quote
All the Bible quotes I have given are real, you haven’t come up with any that support homosexuality.
J if you do I will tell you whether they are real or not.


What's inaccurate?
ugh? Just told you, … ‘most common’ implies there are others less common, as there aren’t because there are NO examples of homosexual practice and unions countenanced, the comment was misleading by implying an alternative when there isn’t one.


You: There are no homosexual relationships approved of in the Bible, therefore, homosexual relationships=bad
No, that’s your statement.

Mine is .. as God created woman for man and only countenances man/woman unions and condemns same sex ones giving celibacy as the alternative we known homosexual unions are not God’s purpose and are error.
Your position seems to be trying to misrepresent mine by including your disbelief in my reasoning.
However, I gotta ask... "His teaching says God’s purpose in creation is man and woman, or celibacy " I think you are shoe horning again... Jesus never taught anything of the sort.
So what do you think Jesus said when He said “Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[a] 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? Do you think the reason He made male and female to be united was not His purpose??

He COMMANDED YOU to consider how your actions will make others feel, and if you would like the roles reversed.
Where did Jesus say this EnemyPartyII? Read Matthew 10, He tells His disciples what to say and sends them out with the warning they will be persecuted. Jesus NT teaching is full of His words not being accepted, and I have been quoting and citing His NT teaching. No my friend Jesus told me to speak His truth in love and at my cost so the roles reversed is of no consequence.

You really think thats what Jesus would want?
personally yes on the evidence, I don’t think you have a clue what Jesus taught.


It tells me to love one another as Christ loved so that the world may know we are His disciples, and it tells me that He loves me when I do what He teaches. Your ideas are neither what He teaches nor what I am to be judged by.
I believe Jesus loves us no matter what we do, his love isn't conditional.
Well God so loved the world that He gave His only Son so that whoever believes shall not perish but have eternal life. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert. So if some don’t believe they will perish? Its past tense, He has shown how much He loves us by making way. Your statement merely tells a paedophile it doesn’t matter what he does Jesus still loves him,


All that love, forgiveness, non-judging, accepting of all comers stuff makes me pretty sure Jesus is cool with my homosexuality.
Which the paedophile could equally say.


Sorry my friend we dont seem to have faith in anything like the same Jesus Christ.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Andreusz,
As I understand it, the argument is that in the Greek of the time, to refer to a person as someone's pais meant that they were that person's homosexual lover. I would be interested to know if Greek scholars think this is correct.
According to gay thinking yes and probably gay thinking Greek scholars as well.

Actually pais can mean child and male or female as well, your idea is totally in bondage to homosexuality. Firstly you assume the pais is male and not female, on top of that assumption you then assume the pais is a servant and not a child, then on top of those two assumptions you assume the centurion is having sex with the pais. It makes me wonder, with gay lobbists already ripping pages out the Bible, whether the gay lobby will not be satisfied until they have outlawed and rewriten the Bible.
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2003-June/025480.html
 
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Andreusz

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To Andreusz,
According to gay thinking yes and probably gay thinking Greek scholars as well.

I am trying to find out what reputable scholars would think. Anyone who would let their sexuality or their prejudices influence their conclusions about some matter is not a reputable scholar.

Actually pais can mean child and male or female as well,

The website you refer me to makes it clear that in this particular case, pais is preceded by the masculine article, and was therefore masculine.

your idea is totally in bondage to homosexuality. Firstly you assume the pais is male and not female, on top of that assumption you then assume the pais is a servant and not a child, then on top of those two assumptions you assume the centurion is having sex with the pais.

Where do I make any of these assumptions? You assume I make them.

It makes me wonder, with gay lobbists already ripping pages out the Bible, whether the gay lobby will not be satisfied until they have outlawed and rewriten the Bible.
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2003-June/025480.html

I'm just interested in whether the idea that pais in the context of that day meant 'homosexual lover' has any merit. I would like to know what reputable Greek scholars think.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Andreusz,
I am trying to find out what reputable scholars would think.
I gave the link to some.

Anyone who would let their sexuality or their prejudices influence their conclusions about some matter is not a reputable scholar.
I agree but I don’t let sexuality or prejudice influence my argument because I cite the Bible, whereas you do let sexuality and prejudice influence as you cite homosexuals and their views and feelings.


Where do I make any of these assumptions? You assume I make them.
the pais is a servant and is ill, no homosexuality there.


I'm just interested in whether the idea that pais in the context of that day meant 'homosexual lover' has any merit. I would like to know what reputable Greek scholars think.
But you said you as you understood it ‘the argument is that in the Greek of the time, to refer to a person as someone's pais meant that they were that person's homosexual lover.’

I would be interested to know if Greek scholars think this is correct.
so where did you get your present understanding from?
 
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EnemyPartyII

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How can it not be? Jesus quotes plenty of it, He spoke the words of the Father.
Even the OT stories Jesus quotes aren't necesarily "word of God" just that the stories in question served to illustrate a point... thats the "all scripture is useful for instruction" bit... even fictional parables are useful for instruction, right?
But your views are not Christian in my opinion as Christians believe the Bible is the word of God.
Define "Christian"... someone who follows the Nicene creed... which never mentions Biblical infalibility as a tennet.
No idea what you mean. Jesus quotes the scriptures of what God said, ‘normative’? What do you mean by normative? Normative for God to say things like this?
I'll try to explain it...

If you were to explain how to read to someone, you would, I assume, talk to that person about looking at the letters, seeing how they look in sequence and forming words from them, right? OK, thats a NORMATIVE description of reading, that is, its the way most people read, normally. However it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with other ways of doing it, like braile, for example. Now, a PROSCRIPTIVE description of reading would say something to the effect that the "looking at the letters and sounding out the words from visual ques is the ONLY way to do it" and that "any other form of reading is WRONG". OK? So, when most people describe something that is fairly common place, they describe it in NORMATIVE terms. That doesn't mean that the described way of doing things is the ONLY way to do things, just that it is the USUAL way of doing things. Now, its perfectly fine to describe things in PROSCRIPTIVE terms, however, because this is not the usual way of doing things, you have to tell your audience that proscription is your intention. And the man/woman verses describing marriage just aren't written in such a way to imply they are intended as anything but normative.

How am I going? does that explain things a little better?
It passes because as Jesus tells you God created male and female for this reason, to be united, that rules out homosexual unins being part of His creation and not surprisingly all that is countenanced anywhere are unions between man and woman and same sex ones are condemned.
You're adding bits in again...

OK, so God created men and women to be joined and are not to be seperated. Fine, good... but that DOESN'T mean that same sex couples can't be just as joined.
All the Bible quotes I have given are real, you haven’t come up with any that support homosexuality. J if you do I will tell you whether they are real or not.
*sigh* OK... the Bible quotes you provided were real, in that they came from the Bible... but they weren't relevant to the discussion at hand... the Bible verses you are presenting are not genuinely condemnatory of mutually consenting monogomous long term homosexual relationships.
ugh? Just told you, … ‘most common’ implies there are others less common, as there aren’t because there are NO examples of homosexual practice and unions countenanced, the comment was misleading by implying an alternative when there isn’t one.
I say again, David/Jonathon, Centurian and his servant, and the sermont on the amount are (for the sake of harmony)ARGUABLY homosexual endorsing passages, but thats not what the normative/proscriptiuve "normal" thing is about... just whats normal or usual in a society is what will be reflected in normative descriptions, even though other, less normal or usual phenomena may exist, and even be perfectly acceptable.
Mine is .. as God created woman for man and only countenances man/woman unions and condemns same sex ones giving celibacy as the alternative we known homosexual unions are not God’s purpose and are error.
Why would God prefer celibacy to homosexuality?
So what do you think Jesus said when He said “Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[a] 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? Do you think the reason He made male and female to be united was not His purpose??
I think he was talking about divorce, so dragging this passage into a discussion on homosexuality is a red herring.

However, I am perfectly happy to accept that God wants some heterosexual people to be together and have children. No ones debating that... but again, normative... Just because heterosexual, reproductive relationships are "God's purpose" for some, that doesn't mean its the case for everyone. And further, since the only realistic alternatives to heterosexual relationships is either to be celibate against one's will, or be in a loveless repressived heterosexual relationship for apearance sake, its not as though condemning the few people who do want to have a homosexual relationship is going to make them stop being homosexual and become hapilly functioning heterosexuals.
Where did Jesus say this EnemyPartyII? Read Matthew 10, He tells His disciples what to say and sends them out with the warning they will be persecuted. Jesus NT teaching is full of His words not being accepted, and I have been quoting and citing His NT teaching. No my friend Jesus told me to speak His truth in love and at my cost so the roles reversed is of no consequence.
Jesus DID say his followers were going to be persecuted, but thats not saying that you should go around deliberately telling people that they are sinning for no good reason, apparently to court persecution.

"John 13:34 A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." To me, sounds like Jesus is telling us to consider others first. He calls this his new commandment. Its a lot more important than going out and upsetting people to find persecution unnecasarily.
personally yes on the evidence, I don’t think you have a clue what Jesus taught.

It tells me to love one another as Christ loved so that the world may know we are His disciples, and it tells me that He loves me when I do what He teaches. Your ideas are neither what He teaches nor what I am to be judged by.
Really? aren't we judged by our concioence? Blind adherance to OT law is Phariseeism, and I recal Jesus was kind of negative about that.
Well God so loved the world that He gave His only Son so that whoever believes shall not perish but have eternal life. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert. So if some don’t believe they will perish? Its past tense, He has shown how much He loves us by making way. Your statement merely tells a paedophile it doesn’t matter what he does Jesus still loves him,
Jesus does still love paedophiles, or are you claiming Jesus universal, eternal love is conditional?
Which the paedophile could equally say.
Nope, because paedophilia breaks the "if the roles were reversed, would i feel this was sinful" rule. Mutually consentual homosexuality does not.

seriously, think about ANY situation and apply the Golden rule. with nothing but the Golden rule applied, you can avoid all sin.

I.e. I believe that any action you can do and keep the Golden rule is NOT sinful, anything that breaks the Golden rule IS a sin. Regardless of what the specifics of OT law are.
 
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Kerwin

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As I understand it, the argument is that in the Greek of the time, to refer to a person as someone's pais meant that they were that person's homosexual lover. I would be interested to know if Greek scholars think this is correct.



Well, I'm not homophobic, and the argument makes sense to me.

According to my source Pais mean child in Greek and can be either female or male. Of course it could be a child that is a homosexual or pedophile lover but to jump to that conclusion without more evidence is to say the least a stretch. Since it also means slave, servant I am not sure we are talking about a child.

As for the David and Jonathan argument it comes straight out of the handbook of homophobic since anyone who is being reasonable would know that because two men are close does not mean they are homosexuals. There are a lot of men who have stronger friendships with other men than they do with their wives and yet are not homosexual.
 
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Kerwin

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EnemyParty II said:
Even the OT stories Jesus quotes aren't necessarily "word of God" just that the stories in question served to illustrate a point... that’s the "all scripture is useful for instruction" bit... even fictional parables are useful for instruction, right?

You seem to be questioning the accuracy of scripture. I assure you that the prophets spoke the word of God but I cannot say the same of the historians. Still for the most part I believe there are probably more errors in both translation and interpretation than in the actual words of those who wrote scripture. The parables are probably a unique situation where the lesson intended is more important than the actual story. I do have trouble with most of Genesis but that may because my outside source of information is flawed.
 
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brightmorningstar

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How can it not be? Jesus quotes plenty of it, He spoke the words of the Father.
Even the OT stories Jesus quotes aren't necesarily "word of God"
I am not addressing those thought am I? My question to you is if the Bible says Jesus who is the Son of God, said He spoke the words of God, the Bible contains the word of God so you cant say it isn’t. Furthermore Jesus said He didn’t abolish any of the law and prophets and makes references to them. This is why Christians believe the Bible is the word of God.


Define "Christian"... someone who follows the Nicene creed... which never mentions Biblical infalibility as a tennet.
No you define it. The Nicene Creed is derived from the Bible references so it can’t in general be a statement of faith if it is based on doubt.


And the man/woman verses describing marriage just aren't written in such a way to imply they are intended as anything but normative.
of course they are, if I told you I bought a dog this morning it was for this reason I went to the pet shop you wouldn’t suggest I could have gone to the pet shop to buy a cat. I could have but that’s not the reason I did. Similarly God could have created man for man but He didn’t He created woman for man.

You're adding bits in again...
No I am not, I have shown you all the references, you are taking away.

All the Bible quotes I have given are real, you haven’t come up with any that support homosexuality. J if you do I will tell you whether they are real or not.
*sigh* OK... the Bible quotes you provided were real, in that they came from the Bible... but they weren't relevant to the discussion at hand...
That’s my call not yours, I present the Bible passages that I believe exclude and condemn homosexual practice and you quote the ones you believe countenance it.


ugh? Just told you, … ‘most common’ implies there are others less common, as there aren’t because there are NO examples of homosexual practice and unions countenanced, the comment was misleading by implying an alternative when there isn’t one.
I say again, David/Jonathon, Centurian and his servant, and the sermont on the amount
The sermon on the mount says homosexual practice is error. Show me where it says homosexual practice is countenanced.


Mine is .. as God created woman for man and only countenances man/woman unions and condemns same sex ones giving celibacy as the alternative we known homosexual unions are not God’s purpose and are error.
Why would God prefer celibacy to homosexuality? [/quote[] because He is God?

Jesus DID say his followers were going to be persecuted, but thats not saying that you should go around deliberately telling people that they are sinning for no good reason, apparently to court persecution.
The question is where does Jesus command me to consider how my actions will make others feel, and if I would like the roles reversed. Certainly not love my neighbour as myself as Jesus tells me to love others as Jesus loved, so Jesus defines how I love myself and others. Where does Jesus command that I must not go around deliberately telling people that they are sinning for no good reason?


Jesus does still love paedophiles, or are you claiming Jesus universal, eternal love is conditional?
Address my point please.
He has shown how much He loves us by making way. Your statement merely tells a paedophile it doesn’t matter what he does Jesus still loves him,


Which the paedophile could equally say.
Nope, because paedophilia breaks the "if the roles were reversed, would i feel this was sinful" rule. Mutually consentual homosexuality does not.
But that’s your rule not Jesus Christ’s command.


 
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EnemyPartyII

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As for the David and Jonathan argument it comes straight out of the handbook of homophobic since anyone who is being reasonable would know that because two men are close does not mean they are homosexuals. There are a lot of men who have stronger friendships with other men than they do with their wives and yet are not homosexual.
But the original texts don't say they were "close" it uses precisely the same sort of language to describe their relationship as is used to describe romantic relationships, when there were terms that WOULD mean "male brotherly, good friend type closeness" available. Yet the authors chose the romantically charged terms. Why would they do that?
 
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brightmorningstar

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But it doesn't. The original texts describe a covenanted friendship, where there is sex in the original Samual text it uses attraction, sleeping with, and marriage. It doesnt use this with David and Jonathan. Furthemore the context of the rest of the OT is that homosexual practice is error, Genesis 19, Leviticus 18 & 20, etc. The only reasoning to see a homosexual relationship is to look at the original text in a modern blinkered way according to modern concepts of homosexual and heterosexual instead of Biblical ones man and woman.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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I am not addressing those thought am I? My question to you is if the Bible says Jesus who is the Son of God, said He spoke the words of God, the Bible contains the word of God so you cant say it isn’t. Furthermore Jesus said He didn’t abolish any of the law and prophets and makes references to them. This is why Christians believe the Bible is the word of God.
I'm not questioning any of the words of Jesus, I'm questioning the ancient tribal oral history giberish.
No you define it. The Nicene Creed is derived from the Bible references so it can’t in general be a statement of faith if it is based on doubt.
Its built on Bible references, but thats not the same as it demanding belief in the devine authorship of the entire Bible.
of course they are, if I told you I bought a dog this morning it was for this reason I went to the pet shop you wouldn’t suggest I could have gone to the pet shop to buy a cat. I could have but that’s not the reason I did. Similarly God could have created man for man but He didn’t He created woman for man.
Most people are either dog owners or cat owners, but SOME own either dogs or cats. If you were describing going to the petshop to buy a dog, that doesn't mean going to the pet shop to buy a cat is wrong, even though you didn't mention it.Heck to explain this normative thing further... if you were to describe going to a petshop, you would probably describe going to buy a cat or a dog, because thats what most people do there, and what most people can relate to. That does not mean that you could not, buy a frog there, or that it would be wrong to do so, if that what you wanted to do.
That’s my call not yours, I present the Bible passages that I believe exclude and condemn homosexual practice and you quote the ones you believe countenance it.
can you see how why I think a verse about divorce is out of place in a discussion about homosexuality?
The sermon on the mount says homosexual practice is error.
[citation needed] (in other words, no, the sermon on the mount says no such thing)
Why would God prefer celibacy to homosexuality? [/quote[] because He is God?
What a silly response to a crux question.

Your contention is that homosexuality is somehow against God's "purpose" yet celibacy is OK? Whats the difference, in terms of human regeneration, as far as it furthers God's "purpose"?
Where does Jesus command that I must not go around deliberately telling people that they are sinning for no good reason?
Judge not lest ye be judged? Let him with no sin cast the first stone? do not point out the mote in thy brothers eye, lest you miss the beam in thine own?

Hows that for a start?
Address my point please. He has shown how much He loves us by making way. Your statement merely tells a paedophile it doesn’t matter what he does Jesus still loves him,
It doesn't matter what a paedophile does, Jesus DOES still love him. so much so he was tortured and died for him.

Maybe you need to ask your question a different way, because I'm not sure I understand what your point is (or what paedophilia has to do with homosexuality, but thats a different kettle of fish)
But that’s your rule not Jesus Christ’s command.
Its my paraphrasing of christ's command, since you seem to have difficulty understanding what I mean by Christ's new commandment, I tried to put it into more real world terms for you.
 
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EnemyPartyII

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But it doesn't. The original texts describe a covenanted friendship, where there is sex in the original Samual text it uses attraction, sleeping with, and marriage. It doesnt use this with David and Jonathan. Furthemore the context of the rest of the OT is that homosexual practice is error, Genesis 19, Leviticus 18 & 20, etc. The only reasoning to see a homosexual relationship is to look at the original text in a modern blinkered way according to modern concepts of homosexual and heterosexual instead of Biblical ones man and woman.

Other scholars, however, interpret the love between David and Jonathan as more intimate than friendship.[1][2] This interpretation views the bonds the men shared as romantic love, regardless of whether or not the relationship was physically consummated. Jonathan and David cared deeply about each other in a way that was arguably more tender and intimate than a platonic friendship.
The relationship between the two men is addressed with the same words and emphasis as loving heterosexual relationships in the Hebrew Testament: e.g. 'ahavah or אהבה (see Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon, Hebrew word #160; Gen. 29:20; 2 Sam. 13:15; Pro. 5:19; Sgs. 2:4-7; Sgs. 3:5-10; Sgs. 5:8) When they are alone together, David confides that he has "found grace in Jonathan's eyes", a phrase normally referring to Romantic or physical attraction. Throughout the passages, David and Jonathan consistently affirm and reaffirm their love and devotion to each other. Jonathan is willing to betray his father, family, wealth, and traditions for David.
The covenant made between the two men strengthens a romantic rather than political or platonic interpretation of their relationship. At their first meeting, Jonathan strips himself before the youth, handing him his clothing, armor, and weapons, remaining naked before him[citation needed]. This is when they first make their covenant, not long after their first meeting (1 Sam. 18:3-4). Each time they reaffirm the covenant, love (though not necessarily sexual in nature) is the only justification provided. Additionally, it should be observed that the covenants and affectionate expressions were made in private, like a personal bond, rather than publicly as would a political bond.
The fact that David refers to Jonathan as "brother" does not necessarily signify a platonic relationship. "Brother" was often used as a term of romantic, even erotic, affection in some ancient Mediterranean societies, and the word "sister" is used many times in the bible to represent a bride or a loved woman. For instance, "brother" is used to indicate long-term homosexual relationships in the Satyricon (eg. 9, 10, 11, 13, 24, 25, 79, 80, 91, 97, 101, 127, 130, 133), in the poetry of Catullus (Poem No. 100) and Martial (ie. 2.4, 7.24, 10.65), and in Apuleius' The Golden Ass (8.7). "From the middle of the second millennium B.C.E. ... it became usual for commoner husbands [in parts of the Mediterranean] to call their wives 'sister'" when they were in fact not siblings[3].
Although David was married, David himself articulates a distinction between his relationship with Jonathan and the bonds he shares with women. David is married to many women, one of whom is Jonathan's sister Michal, but the Bible does not mention David loving Michal (though it is stated that Michal loves David). He explicitly states, on hearing of Jonathan's death, that his love for Jonathan "passes the love of women" (2 Sam. 1:25-26). Furthermore, social customs in the ancient Mediterranean basin, did not preclude extramarital homoerotic relationships. The Epic of Gilgamesh, which predates the Books of Samuel, depicts a remarkably similar homoerotic relationship between Gilgamesh and Enkidu.

Though sex is never explicitly depicted, much of the Bible's sexual terminology is shrouded in euphemism. Numerous passages allude to a physically intimate relationship between the two men: Jonathan's disrobing, his "delighting much" in David, and the kissing before their departure. Saul accuses Jonathan of "confusing the nakedness of his mother" with David; the nakedness of one's parents is a common Biblical sexual allusion (e.g. Lev. 18:6-19; Lev. 20:11,Lev. 20:17-21; Ezek. 16:36-37; Ezek 23:10; Hab. 2:15; etc.)
 
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