Homosexuality is Slavery!

[NPH]

Homosexuality is slavery.

Only for leathermen, and they do it willingly so it's not really slavery so much as S&M submission.

 

[HaloHope]

I just wanted to bring this back up. The OP still speaks the Truth, regardless of how difficult it might be to accept it (I find it hard, as well... truly, the path is straight and narrow indeed). I do not say these things out of malice, but out of love. All too often I seek the false happiness and desire to fall in love with a man. But I cannot escape the reality of God, and I try to seek true happiness and true joy found only in Christ. I pray that y'all seek it as well.

Thanks for your concern but there are many gay Christian people out there who find happiness in the joy of the creator while having a commited monogamous same-sex relationship too. If the OP is true, and gay people are meant to bottle up their sexuality, never knowing love, never being able to share their lives with someone they care about then God is simply a monster not worthy of worship.

But fortunately God is good, God is great, and it is not a sin for gay people to pursue relationships (within certain boundries also applied to hetrosexuality).

 

[KCKID]

Thanks for your concern but there are many gay Christian people out there who find happiness in the joy of the creator while having a commited monogamous same-sex relationship too. If the OP is true, and gay people are meant to bottle up their sexuality, never knowing love, never being able to share their lives with someone they care about then God is simply a monster not worthy of worship.

But fortunately God is good, God is great, and it is not a sin for gay people to pursue relationships (within certain boundries also applied to hetrosexuality).

The 'monster' God as portrayed so often, unintentionally I'm sure, by Christians has always been a concern for me too. That God would place obstacles in one's way (such as forbidding committed homosexual relationships, for instance) just because He can and for no other apparent reason WOULD cause one to question God. Actually, I personally don't feel it wrong to question God. I especially don't feel it wrong to question the Bible which was written by men. In fact, I feel that we SHOULD question our beliefs.

 

[AureateDawn]

The 'monster' God as portrayed so often, unintentionally I'm sure, by Christians has always been a concern for me too. That God would place obstacles in one's way (such as forbidding committed homosexual relationships, for instance) just because He can and for no other apparent reason WOULD cause one to question God. Actually, I personally don't feel it wrong to question God. I especially don't feel it wrong to question the Bible which was written by men. In fact, I feel that we SHOULD question our beliefs.

This "monster" God is completely false, brother. Look at the story of Job, for example. We all are called to bear our cross, as Christ says in the Holy Gospel. Our cross we share, having same sex passions, is a difficult one. But through faith, love of God, love for our neighbor, and fellowship, it can be carried. Even Christ needed help bearing his Cross as He walked to His death.

Questioning is indeed good! It causes us to learn more and grow in our Faith!

If the OP is true, and gay people are meant to bottle up their sexuality, never knowing love, never being able to share their lives with someone they care about then God is simply a monster not worthy of worship.

But fortunately God is good, God is great, and it is not a sin for gay people to pursue relationships (within certain boundries also applied to hetrosexuality).

The Truth does not change. The OP is indeed true. Notice that nothing was mentioned about bottling anything up. Nothing should be bottled up inside. It is something to talk to loved ones, friends, and a pastor/priest about. I never said "Never knowing love." For, indeed, God is love. Love can be known by family and very close and loved friends. Love can be known by God Himself and ones relationship with Him. You can share your life with family, friends, and God. It is precisely that he loves us that he wishes us to sin no more. I admit I am chief among sinners, but pursuing a romantic "homosexual" relationship is, indeed, sinful. We all have sins to struggle with, we all have to bear our cross as Christ says. True happiness is found with Christ. God is no monster, sister.

God is indeed good and great, but it doesn't change the fact that such a relationship is sinful. Trust me, I long for a boyfriend as well. But Christ is infinitely sweeter than anything my fallen humanity would conceive.

Only for leathermen, and they do it willingly so it's not really slavery so much as S&M submission.

Haha! Thanks for the chuckle!

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Thanks for your concern but there are many gay Christian people out there who find happiness in the joy of the creator while having a commited monogamous same-sex relationship too. If the OP is true, and gay people are meant to bottle up their sexuality, never knowing love, never being able to share their lives with someone they care about then God is simply a monster not worthy of worship.

But fortunately God is good, God is great, and it is not a sin for gay people to pursue relationships (within certain boundries also applied to hetrosexuality).

Please post the scripture that promotes gay sex as being acceptable for Christians to engage in?

 

[Polycarp_fan]

The 'monster' God as portrayed so often, unintentionally I'm sure, by Christians has always been a concern for me too.[/quote}

There is nothing as monstrous as a god that allows "anything goes."

That God would place obstacles in one's way (such as forbidding committed homosexual relationships, for instance) just because He can and for no other apparent reason WOULD cause one to question God.

By using scripture, we see that God does restrain His followers for doing anything they please.

Actually, I personally don't feel it wrong to question God.

How do you "question" God?

I especially don't feel it wrong to question the Bible which was written by men.

Men that wrote about all of their faults and failures. Sure seems that someone other than a man or some men, was the authority for the words in the Bible. Just looking at gay culture for example, and you see how perfect the writers of gay ideology are.

Big difference between man writing stuf of his own accord, and someone hearing from God about what to write down and how. What "man" would write about his religious leaders being murderers, adulterers, and idol worshippers, or write about himself as being one? It sure looks like someone other than a man was responsible for the words of the Bible.

In fact, I feel that we SHOULD question our beliefs.

I agree. That is why I am involved with questioning the veracity of gay supporters. They have not one place anywhere in the Bible to support their positions, but these men (and women) keep preeaching and writing that they do. Questioning these people is the duty of a Christian, when these people attempt to enter the Church community.

 

[HaloHope]

The Truth does not change. The OP is indeed true. Notice that nothing was mentioned about bottling anything up. Nothing should be bottled up inside. It is something to talk to loved ones, friends, and a pastor/priest about. I never said "Never knowing love." For, indeed, God is love. Love can be known by family and very close and loved friends. Love can be known by God Himself and ones relationship with Him. You can share your life with family, friends, and God. It is precisely that he loves us that he wishes us to sin no more. I admit I am chief among sinners, but pursuing a romantic "homosexual" relationship is, indeed, sinful. We all have sins to struggle with, we all have to bear our cross as Christ says. True happiness is found with Christ. God is no monster, sister.

God is indeed good and great, but it doesn't change the fact that such a relationship is sinful. Trust me, I long for a boyfriend as well. But Christ is infinitely sweeter than anything my fallen humanity would conceive.

I must admit it irrtiates me when people claim I don't know the love of God because I have a homosexual relationship. I do know the love of God he has been there for me time and time again, he has been there time and time again for both me and AND my partner, and even us as a couple. Don't believe that? Its tough, because I know from personal experience he has and nobody can interfere with my relationship with God. Im aware God is love, Im aware of the joy he brings, the two of us recently got back from a pilgrimage together where we dedicated huge amounts of time to prayer and meditation.

Talking about it to freinds and pastors isnt going to make it go away, praying to change things every day didnt change me. In fact the last person I'd talk to about my problems is a pastor if im brutally honest.

Human beings are built to be with another human being in the vast majority of cases, and being gay from birth (im assuming you feel that way?) and to NEVER EVER be able to share love with another human being is a monstrous, bitter and evil restriction to place on anyone. I would not and could not feasibly worship such a God. However once again I will reiterate, God HAS blessed me, GOD has saved me, sure, I sin, we all do but my sexual orientation is nothing to do with that.

So I shall continue to have a great relationship with God, I shall remain with my partner of three years for hopefully the rest of my life and we shall continue to have a great relationship with God. And there isnt really anything that can be done to get in the way of that.

I wish you happiness in your endevours in life, God Bless

 

[HaloHope]

Please post the scripture that promotes gay sex as being acceptable for Christians to engage in?

Theres probably not much point in me doing this is their polycarp? I mean seriously, youve already stated multiple times you don't think the scriptures are credible in context id use them and I don't really want to waste both our time.

We will never agree.

If you really are insistant ill respond after work today.

 

[*Starlight*]

Homosexuality is slavery. Period. Those who are homosexual and act upon it are chaining themselves up to the Devil and to the world.

People who are gay...

Well, first, let me clarify. The verb "to be" is inappropriate. "I am gay" is a wrong statement; it does not define who I am (or you, or them, whatever). Saying "I/You struggle with same-sex attraction and passions" is more appropriate.

Anywho. Being gay in and of itself is not wrong. The bible makes it pretty clear that it's wrong... If anyone really needs me to point out that common Scriptures in "debating" homosexuality, I suppose I will. I am sure they have been thrown around plenty enough, however.

Acting upon these same-sex passions, however, is very sinful. Same with opposite-sex passions--they must abstain from lust and other such. However, "homosexuals" struggle even moreso, unable to marry or date or any of that. Acting upon one's "gayness" is slavery in its highest form. Acting upon it means you are giving in, submitting to the Devil, and allowing him to place shackles on you and tie you down. This is slavery, with same-sex passions or with any other sin. It's pure slavery.

Jesus will set you free! Live a celibate life in secular society or in a monastery! Seek God! The cross we "homosexuals" bear is surely heavy, but God will give us nothing we cannot bear!

(/Edited in) I do not say these things out of malice, but out of love. All too often I seek the false happiness and desire to fall in love with a man. But I cannot escape the reality of God, and I try to seek true happiness and true joy found only in Christ. I pray that y'all seek it as well.(/)

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy spirit, Amen.

Lord, have mercy.

Hi! That's a long post, but I don't see any actual reasons here why being in a homosexual relationship would be any different than being in a heterosexual relationship. You say that "acting upon same-sex passions is a sin" but you're not even trying to actually explain what kind of harm it causes and why celibacy would be better in case of a homosexual person... if you try to convince someone that you're correct, you should support it with some actual arguments.

 

[KCKID]

The 'monster' God as portrayed so often, unintentionally I'm sure, by Christians has always been a concern for me too.

There is nothing as monstrous as a god that allows "anything goes."

By using scripture, we see that God does restrain His followers for doing anything they please.

Why are you attempting to misquote me, Polycarp_fan? Who said ANYTHING about an 'anything goes' God? Let me tell you this, my friend ...I'm a real stickler, generally speaking, for moral behavior even though I don't have any desire to poke my nose into the bedroom habits of others. I am not here on this forum (SUBforum whatever) promoting sexual promiscuity for those of either 'gay' or 'straight' sexual orientation. An example: While I oftentimes agree wholeheartedly with David Brider's intelligent posts I didn't agree with him at all re his 'sex in the bathroom' post on whatever thread it was. I see no reason for public displays or perverse exhibitionism of sexual behavior by EITHER gender or sexual persuasion. Actually, I'm borderline 'prudish' at times when it comes to discussing sexual issues. So, my point is that since I'm not an 'anything goes' type person I certainly wouldn't want an 'anything goes' type God either.

So, stop misquoting me or otherwise adding your own little flourishes to your comments ...please!

How do you "question" God?

I question God in prayer. I question why he kills so indescriminately in the Bible when He forbids us to kill. I question why He appears to answer some prayers while totally ignoring others. Y'know, things like that.

Men that wrote about all of their faults and failures. Sure seems that someone other than a man or some men, was the authority for the words in the Bible.

SOME of the Bible ...yes. ALL of the Bible ...no. Sometimes I hear a preacher or evangelist who I just KNOW is inspired by God. Sometimes I hear a preacher or evangelist that I feel is NOT inspired by God ...not at that particular time anyway. Are YOU ever inspired by God, Polycarp_fan? You probably are. But not ALL the time. Same with the Bible-writers.

Just looking at gay culture for example, and you see how perfect the writers of gay ideology are.

You just lost me at the apes. *

Big difference between man writing stuf of his own accord, and someone hearing from God about what to write down and how.

How do YOU determine what is of one's own accord and what is of God? How would you convincingly prove the difference between the two to me?

What "man" would write about his religious leaders being murderers, adulterers, and idol worshippers, or write about himself as being one? It sure looks like someone other than a man was responsible for the words of the Bible.

You lost me at the apes again.

I agree. That is why I am involved with questioning the veracity of gay supporters.

It's fine that you question the veracity of gay supporters but you've gone so much further than questioning. You've become - in your own words, I believe - an Apostle of God who has taken on a mindset of 'myth and fairy tale' in regard to sexual taboos and ancient beliefs (ala the 'Kabbala' thread).

* I believe that you even made the statement - "Our faith is founded on facts, not myth and fairy tale" on the 'So, recruit me' thread. I believe that YOUR beliefs consist of both fact and myth and you sometimes can't determine which is which. The Bible contains fact, myth, symbolisms, legends, literalisms, metaphors, hyperboles, etc. etc.

They have not one place anywhere in the Bible to support their positions, but these men (and women) keep preaching and writing that they do. Questioning these people is the duty of a Christian, when these people attempt to enter the Church community.

I don't recall anyone stating that the Bible gives positive examples of homosexual relationships. I DO know that you keep incessantly asking for scriptural references to positive same-sex sex texts. Come to think of it ...I don't know that a scripture exists where 'non-procreational' sex between heterosexuals is encouraged either. Maybe you could present such a scripture to us. Sex in the Bible appears to be solely about 'begatting'.
_______________________________________________________________

* The apes. A little story that has nothing to do with the issue.

Some years ago I took my (then) 9 year-old son to see a re-release of the 1968 Stanley Kubrick movie 2001: A Space Odyssey. As many might know, this is a very complex movie that starts out with a 15-minute or so intro involving many apes (both real and men in costume) in a sequence entitled 'The Dawn Of Man'. Very evolutionary in theme. Then the movie rather abruptly leaps ahead from the apes to the year 2001 where space travel to the moon, Jupiter and beyond is 'the norm'. It's a long, long movie and, as I say, very complex and at times monotonous since so much of the story occurs in 'real time'.

Anyway, on the way home after the movie I asked Charley what he thought of the movie.

"Great!" he said with enthusiasm.

I was a little puzzled since many an adult can't fathom out the movie, let alone a 9 year-old kid. So, I asked apprehensively, "Did you understand it?"

"Oh yes, most of it" he said, "But I got lost in one part."

Being the 'all-knowing' daddy and ready to fill him in on the section of the movie where he got lost and make him proud of me, I asked, "Which part didn't you understand?"

He thought for a moment and then said, "Um, I got lost at the apes."

I gave a deep sigh and said, "But ...THAT was at the very BEGINNING of the movie ...!"

Charley said, "I know, the beginning is where I got lost ...I got lost at the apes!"

So, that saying from 9 year-old Charley years ago has become common-place in my circle of friends whenever anyone encounters an issue that is over their head.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Very good post sir.

Why are you attempting to misquote me, Polycarp_fan? Who said ANYTHING about an 'anything goes' God?

Not God. You did. If two men can be married in your version of religion, then your version of religion is anything goes. Your version of religion differs from the belief system laid out "in the Bible." As we'll see later. I'm glad you've rolled up your sleeves for a discussion of things.

Let me tell you this, my friend ...I'm a real stickler, generally speaking, for moral behavior even though I don't have any desire to poke my nose into the bedroom habits of others.

And neither do I. I don't even care about gay marriage. It is when these people push their sexual agenda into my life and my Church is when I get to tell them to leave and, why. When you suport gay activim you do it outside of the Church. Yo have not one right to claim to be doing what Christians do.

I am not here on this forum (SUBforum whatever) promoting sexual promiscuity for those of either 'gay' or 'straight' sexual orientation.

yes, you most certainly are. Your "anything goes" theology means just that. If it all boils down to just an opinion, then yes, you are preaching anything goes.

An example: While I oftentimes agree wholeheartedly with David Brider's intelligent posts I didn't agree with him at all re his 'sex in the bathroom' post on whatever thread it was.

A perfect example of where the "anything goes" mindset takes a person. I'm not going to be too Christianny if I take my son into a public "toilet" and two gay guys are going at it in one of the stalls. Or a guy and a girl for tha matter. Anything does not go for me. Your ways, though lead to this. Ever heard of Pandora and Pandora's Box? Common sense. But even that is lacking in the gay crowd.

I see no reason for public displays or perverse exhibitionism of sexual behavior by EITHER gender or sexual persuasion.

The Gay Activist does though. AIDS and all. Their morality boils down to "use a condom." And then guess what?

Actually, I'm borderline 'prudish' at times when it comes to discussing sexual issues.

Interesting that the Biblical writers are not huh? Time to wake up and smell the coffee brewing in your own house.

So, my point is that since I'm not an 'anything goes' type person I certainly wouldn't want an 'anything goes' type God either.

You can't have that anyway according to the Biblical writers, and Who they were influenced by to write what they did.

So, stop misquoting me or otherwise adding your own little flourishes to your comments ...please!

I only call 'em as I see 'em. You support gay sex and thse that enegage in it, AND you "seem" to promote that "in the Church."

I question God in prayer.

Is that what prayer is for? That seems a very inappropriate time for something of that nature. But your relationship with God is an exclusive arrangement.

I question why he kills so indescriminately in the Bible when He forbids us to kill. I question why He appears to answer some prayers while totally ignoring others. Y'know, things like that.

So, you want a puppet master God? You'll see that God has indeed made us in His image as your children get a little older. In fact, why did you want to have children KNOWING FULL WELL what was going to be facing them and what they were going to be facing??????

C'mon man this isn't that hard to reason out. Serioulsy it's not. Don;t follow false teachings and you'll see things just fine. Question everything, oh yes, but God is God and we are not. BUT, we can get a glimpse of God's reality without a doubt.

SOME of the Bible ...yes. ALL of the Bible ...no. Sometimes I hear a preacher or evangelist who I just KNOW is inspired by God.

You can only "prove it" though, by "what is written" to prove them right. The Apsotles were commissioned by Christ to do just that.

Sometimes I hear a preacher or evangelist that I feel is NOT inspired by God ...not at that particular time anyway.

And you can ONLY do that by comparing their words and deeds to the Apostolic witness and testimony of the prophets. You know, scripture. Otherwise, YOU are back to "anything goes." Only YOU get to be god.

Are YOU ever inspired by God, Polycarp_fan? You probably are. But not ALL the time. Same with the Bible-writers.

I am animated by God every moment. It is a sceintific fact. What I think you mean, is do I "think" for myself. Within the context of the universe, absolutely yes.

You just lost me at the apes. *

I know. I feel it is because you have not studied long enough or not been experienced with this debate/apologia/apologetics thing for very long.

"My people perish for lack of knowledge," says the Lord.

How do YOU determine what is of one's own accord and what is of God? How would you convincingly prove the difference between the two to me?

The way Jesus did:

"For, it is writen."

You lost me at the apes again.

I know. I may be expecting too much from people. But, notice that even your nine-year old son* could reason out the nonsense from the good storyline. Notice Jesus preached that we MUST become as little children to get into heaven?

It's fine that you question the veracity of gay supporters but you've gone so much further than questioning.

No further than Jude or any other Apostle/Disciple. I am to follow their lead. They did not leave the stones unturned.

You've become - in your own words, I believe - an Apostle of God who has taken on a mindset of 'myth and fairy tale' in regard to sexual taboos and ancient beliefs (ala the 'Kabbala' thread).

I state quite confidently, that following the teachings of the Apostles is what is a good, sound and honest way of being a Christian. Otherwise I would be following the people you do into "anything goes."

* I believe that you even made the statement - "Our faith is founded on facts, not myth and fairy tale" on the 'So, recruit me' thread.

Again, I am just folowing Christ Jesus and His Apsotles and Disciples on what a Christian should do. Christian truth is not myth or fairy tale. These people died (and were killed) believing that what they were saying was the truth. having "tested all things," I believe that they were inded rational and logical people. Jesus Christ is God and the New Testamant witness is a sound and rational treatise on reality. This debate proves that to me yet again. The rote repsonses of the adversaries of Christians towards Christians are sometimes laughable. But, I am not to laugh at them. I am to be understanding and nice. Obviously, I am just a man. I laugh at them far too ofetn. BUT, there is supposed to be joy in our salvation right?

I believe that YOUR beliefs consist of both fact and myth and you sometimes can't determine which is which.

Hmm, I must respectfully disagree with your judgment. I am all too familiar with the facts of what we are debating. Both outside and inside of the Bible, God will not be mocked. Not by gay activism nor its supporters.

The Bible contains fact, myth, symbolisms, legends, literalisms, metaphors, hyperboles, etc. etc.

Sounds like reality to me. It doesn't though mix the two. You appear to do that though.

I don't recall anyone stating that the Bible gives positive examples of homosexual relationships.

Gay activists have done this in five different parts. Even going close to blaspheming. Like I thought, you're new at this. I am not your enemy sir, and please, test ALL things that I present. I am confident, that is all.

I DO know that you keep incessantly asking for scriptural references to positive same-sex sex texts.

I do this to prove that "anti-gay" positions are based on logic and reason. Biblical truth as it were.

Come to think of it ...I don't know that a scripture exists where 'non-procreational' sex between heterosexuals is encouraged either.

You have a child. I'm sure that didn't happen with a wam-bam thank you mam. Ever read the Song of songs? Hubba-hubba sex with no doubt it.

Maybe you could present such a scripture to us. Sex in the Bible appears to be solely about 'begatting'.

Paul talks about getting "married" so that a Christian won't get caught up in lust. He doesn't talk abut kids being the reason. Go read the Song of songs and try interpreting it 2008 style. Have you ever noticed how many times the Bible mentions how good looking some of the people were? Abram (Abraham) had to hide his marriage to Sarah because she was hot looking and was so hot looking that other guys would kill him and take her.

Jacob worked for HOW MANY YEARS for his hotty Rachel?????

Notice of all his wives, who he mourned? The hotty. Though God blessed the not so hot one Leah. But the Bible is not silent on sex in any way, shape, or form. Literally.

The Bible doesn't hide hotties and saints. In fact, explicitly so.

And we won't even go to Judah and his hotty daughter in law Tamar. I mean, that dude "paid her" for sex. And not procreative sex either. Although, it happned.

Now fast forward to 2008.

Hubba hubba.



_______________________________________________________________

* The apes. A little story that has nothing to do with the issue.

Some years ago I took my (then) 9 year-old son to see a re-release of the 1968 Stanley Kubrick movie 2001: A Space Odyssey. As many might know, this is a very complex movie that starts out with a 15-minute or so intro involving many apes (both real and men in costume) in a sequence entitled 'The Dawn Of Man'. Very evolutionary in theme. Then the movie rather abruptly leaps ahead from the apes to the year 2001 where space travel to the moon, Jupiter and beyond is 'the norm'. It's a long, long movie and, as I say, very complex and at times monotonous since so much of the story occurs in 'real time'.

Anyway, on the way home after the movie I asked Charley what he thought of the movie.

"Great!" he said with enthusiasm.

I was a little puzzled since many an adult can't fathom out the movie, let alone a 9 year-old kid. So, I asked apprehensively, "Did you understand it?"

"Oh yes, most of it" he said, "But I got lost in one part."

Being the 'all-knowing' daddy and ready to fill him in on the section of the movie where he got lost and make him proud of me, I asked, "Which part didn't you understand?"

He thought for a moment and then said, "Um, I got lost at the apes."

I gave a deep sigh and said, "But ...THAT was at the very BEGINNING of the movie ...!"

Charley said, "I know, the beginning is where I got lost ...I got lost at the apes!"

So, that saying from 9 year-old Charley years ago has become common-place in my circle of friends whenever anyone encounters an issue that is over their head.

Even children know how stupid evolution is.

Darwinism loses me at the apes too.

 

[AureateDawn]

I must admit it irrtiates me when people claim I don't know the love of God because I have a homosexual relationship. I do know the love of God he has been there for me time and time again, he has been there time and time again for both me and AND my partner, and even us as a couple. Don't believe that? Its tough, because I know from personal experience he has and nobody can interfere with my relationship with God. Im aware God is love, Im aware of the joy he brings, the two of us recently got back from a pilgrimage together where we dedicated huge amounts of time to prayer and meditation.

Talking about it to freinds and pastors isnt going to make it go away, praying to change things every day didnt change me. In fact the last person I'd talk to about my problems is a pastor if im brutally honest.

Human beings are built to be with another human being in the vast majority of cases, and being gay from birth (im assuming you feel that way?) and to NEVER EVER be able to share love with another human being is a monstrous, bitter and evil restriction to place on anyone. I would not and could not feasibly worship such a God. However once again I will reiterate, God HAS blessed me, GOD has saved me, sure, I sin, we all do but my sexual orientation is nothing to do with that.

So I shall continue to have a great relationship with God, I shall remain with my partner of three years for hopefully the rest of my life and we shall continue to have a great relationship with God. And there isnt really anything that can be done to get in the way of that.

I wish you happiness in your endevours in life, God Bless

I apologize if I came across as judging you of not having the love of God in your life. Please forgive me, it was unintentional.

Talking about it will not make it go away, as you said. Praying to God to take the feelings away will not take them away either (well, probably not... I've tried it!). It's not about getting them to "go away" but about accepting the cross you are called to bear, accepting the struggle, and trying to love God anyways (I know I still have a hard time doing that at times!).

The Holy Spirit works in a variety of wonderful and mysterious ways I can't even begin to fathom. God is leading each person to the Truth and dealing with them in their unique positions in life.

I am going to assume by "sharing love with another human being" you mean only in the romantic sense, as I have said before some of the greatest love is from family and friends. I suppose it is one of the many downfalls of the current Western train of thought that one can only be happy in a romantic relationship (I've only recently kicked such a notion!). God is not monstrous and bitter. As I am sure you know, He cares about us and loves us very much. It is precisely due to His unfailing love that He wants us to live a life without sin.

Why is celibacy such a bad thing? It seems (I'm not talking about you, but people in general) that people tend to have such a negative view of lifelong celibacy, and I am not sure why. Jesus even said that those who are able should be eunuchs, celibates, for the Kingdom of Heaven. And I believe it is Paul (I could be wrong) who greatly advocates celibacy in the Bible.

I do have a question for you, if you do not mind. For almost 2,000 years Christians have believes that living a homosexual lifestyle in a romantic relationship and having "gay" sex is wrong. Now in the past 50 years or so (if even that long), people are trying to turn that upside down and say that "Oh, well, 1,950 years of holy priests, monks and nuns, and wise people in the Church were wrong. We are now more enlightened than they were, and we see the Bible more clearly." Why dump out almost 2,000 years of belief to try and justify not bearing a part of ones cross (though, again, it is very hard to bear)?

Hi! That's a long post, but I don't see any actual reasons here why being in a homosexual relationship would be any different than being in a heterosexual relationship. You say that "acting upon same-sex passions is a sin" but you're not even trying to actually explain what kind of harm it causes and why celibacy would be better in case of a homosexual person... if you try to convince someone that you're correct, you should support it with some actual arguments.

Hi there!

It causes harm to one's soul, as all sin does. Now, the matter of seeing it as a sin or not is dependent on one's "interpretation" of the Bible (which would lead me to point above regarding the 2,000 years of teaching). But any sin is damaging. Celibacy is not to be looked down upon, but to be seen as a gift from God.

 

[HaloHope]

I apologize if I came across as judging you of not having the love of God in your life. Please forgive me, it was unintentional.

Its ok, I genuinally believe your posting with good intentions.

Talking about it will not make it go away, as you said. Praying to God to take the feelings away will not take them away either (well, probably not... I've tried it!). It's not about getting them to "go away" but about accepting the cross you are called to bear, accepting the struggle, and trying to love God anyways (I know I still have a hard time doing that at times!).

My feelings lie with the fact its an unrational cross to bare, ones natural orientation is an innate deep-set drive, part of who a person is it is a desire that when carried out in the context of monogamy harms nobody. Its irrational for it to be a sin, it would be a cruel God to force such a thing on anyone.

The Holy Spirit works in a variety of wonderful and mysterious ways I can't even begin to fathom. God is leading each person to the Truth and dealing with them in their unique positions in life.

Exactly, I can agree this is an amazing thing.

I am going to assume by "sharing love with another human being" you mean only in the romantic sense, as I have said before some of the greatest love is from family and friends. I suppose it is one of the many downfalls of the current Western train of thought that one can only be happy in a romantic relationship (I've only recently kicked such a notion!). God is not monstrous and bitter. As I am sure you know, He cares about us and loves us very much. It is precisely due to His unfailing love that He wants us to live a life without sin.

My partner is my family, and she is my best freind too. We just happen to care for each other in a romantic sense too, just like a hetrosexual couple should. Sure I can appreciate the love I have for my Mum or for freinds of mine, but it's not the same:- its not the same connection you have with the person you love, the person you want to share every waking moment with the person who holds you close at night. I believe romantic love to be one of the most wonderful things ive experienced in my life, and for people to be deprived of that just of their sexuality based on a few ropey at best Bible verses saddens me beyond all belief.

Why is celibacy such a bad thing? It seems (I'm not talking about you, but people in general) that people tend to have such a negative view of lifelong celibacy, and I am not sure why. Jesus even said that those who are able should be eunuchs, celibates, for the Kingdom of Heaven. And I believe it is Paul (I could be wrong) who greatly advocates celibacy in the Bible.

Celibacy can be great if a person wishes celibacy. It should however never be inflicted on anyone due to how they are born. It should be entirely a choice. Yes Paul does advocate celibacy but he also says its better to get married (marriage is what I myself classify as a monogamous commited relationship) rather than burning with lust. I dread to think the emotional mess I'd be if I tried to shut out how I feel about my partner.

I do have a question for you, if you do not mind. For almost 2,000 years Christians have believes that living a homosexual lifestyle in a romantic relationship and having "gay" sex is wrong. Now in the past 50 years or so (if even that long), people are trying to turn that upside down and say that "Oh, well, 1,950 years of holy priests, monks and nuns, and wise people in the Church were wrong. We are now more enlightened than they were, and we see the Bible more clearly." Why dump out almost 2,000 years of belief to try and justify not bearing a part of ones cross (though, again, it is very hard to bear)?

For almost 2000 years the majority of the church in the West thought black people were inferior citizens, any monks, holy priests and nuns thought so too. What happened? We realized discrimination of any kind is unbiblical.

I'd ask you a question. Other than "because the Bible says" what makes homosexual inherantly bad and damaging to the individual if in the context of a monogamous relationship?

 

[AureateDawn]

My feelings lie with the fact its an unrational cross to bare, ones natural orientation is an innate deep-set drive, part of who a person is it is a desire that when carried out in the context of monogamy harms nobody. Its irrational for it to be a sin, it would be a cruel God to force such a thing on anyone.

To our human mind it may be irrational. But God has a plan for everything. I admit it can be a huge struggle. It is not uncommon for me to doubt God, or to try and convince myself that having a romantic relationship with a guy is OK. It is a huge cross to bear, and one needs friends, family, and loved ones to struggle against it and bear it. You are saying that this struggle is innate. Are not alcoholics innately an alcoholic if they are born from alcoholic parents and have tendencies to over drink? It is not something that they can help. They were born with such tendencies. But that doesn't mean that they can get drunk and say "Well, I was born with these alcoholic tendencies."

As I mentioned in my OP, one's sexuality is not "who a person is". This is an influence of the current Western culture. I am not defined by my "being gay" (but as I said in the OP, I am only saying this to make more sense, though the correct terminology should be "I struggle with same-sex passions"). And it does, indeed, harm someone. It harms those who practice is! Because all sin hurts us and those around us. My sin directly influences and harms my family and myself.

I believe romantic love to be one of the most wonderful things ive experienced in my life, and for people to be deprived of that just of their sexuality based on a few ropey at best Bible verses saddens me beyond all belief.

I wish I could feel what you feel. I mean, I can, I just don't let myself because I firmly believe it is wrong to have a romantic relationship in that context. As I am sure you will agree, and I try to focus on this, Gos is love. IS. God's love is infinitely more amazing and fantastic than anything we have experienced on Earth or can even begin to remotely fathom.

The Bible really is clear on the teaching. It's only in the last few decades that people have decided to twist those verses to suit their own homosexual agendas. This also goes to a deeper problem where one interprets the Bible as they please, which goes into the necessity of the Holy Church, THE Church, to guide us (because the Holy Spirit has guided the Church in Her interpretation), but that's a completely different topic.

Celibacy can be great if a person wishes celibacy. It should however never be inflicted on anyone due to how they are born. It should be entirely a choice. Yes Paul does advocate celibacy but he also says its better to get married (marriage is what I myself classify as a monogamous commited relationship) rather than burning with lust. I dread to think the emotional mess I'd be if I tried to shut out how I feel about my partner.

First, you are assuming that someone is "born gay". This is not proven, and there are many scientific theories abound. Nothing is proven yet as to the origin of such feelings. Indeed, as Paul says, marriage is better than lust, but celibacy is very good if one can handle it. If one is "gay" and cannot be celibate, I am not sure what to do. It is something to talk to with one's priest. And again, it's your own definition of what marriage means, despite the clear "Man united with woman" that the Bible and the Church teaches, and has taught for nearly 2,000 years.

For almost 2000 years the majority of the church in the West thought black people were inferior citizens, any monks, holy priests and nuns thought so too. What happened? We realized discrimination of any kind is unbiblical.

Well, I would argue that it's only been the past 400-500 years or less, really. I am not so clear on Church development in the West. I know in the East such problems did not arise to my knowledge, as the Orthodox Church is comprised of many different ethnicities.

I'd ask you a question. Other than "because the Bible says" what makes homosexual inherantly bad and damaging to the individual if in the context of a monogamous relationship?

Nothing. Outside of belief in God, belief in the Bible as the inerrant Word of God, and belief that the Holy Spirit guides the Church in interpretation of the Bible and in all things, there is nothing that one can use to say that living in a homosexual romantic relationship is wrong. Outside of God, the Bible, and the Church, many things can be justified.

Love in Christ,
Justin

 

[Zaac]

My feelings lie with the fact its an unrational cross to bare, ones natural orientation is an innate deep-set drive, part of who a person is it is a desire that when carried out in the context of monogamy harms nobody. Its irrational for it to be a sin, it would be a cruel God to force such a thing on anyone.

God hasn't forced anything upon anyone. Heterosexuals CHOOSE to lust and fornicate. Homosexuals do the same. Our orientations, no matter what they are, do not justify CHOOSING to commit sin.

My partner is my family, and she is my best freind too. We just happen to care for each other in a romantic sense too, just like a hetrosexual couple should. Sure I can appreciate the love I have for my Mum or for freinds of mine, but it's not the same:- its not the same connection you have with the person you love, the person you want to share every waking moment with the person who holds you close at night. I believe romantic love to be one of the most wonderful things ive experienced in my life, and for people to be deprived of that just of their sexuality based on a few ropey at best Bible verses saddens me beyond all belief.

As a Christian, I am to view things from a Christ -centric Kingdom perspective. And this concept of a romantic PARTNER being the equivalent of a covenanted husband-wife union with Christ simply isn't exampled in God's Word.

Homosexuality is just like a drug. The more people participate in homosexual acts, the deeper they get drawn into that lifestyle. You feel as though everything you do should be centered around that aspect. It is the proverbial thorn in your side.

Everyone has such a thorn. But it is the call of the Christian to die to self and that thorn everyday and live for Christ.

I know plenty of Christians who would identify themselves as having an orientation toward the same sex. But what a testimony it is to them and their witness for Christ that they CHOOSE to forgo their feelings in order to glorify Christ.

This issue comes down to two types of people: Those who live for Christ vs those who live for self.

Celibacy can be great if a person wishes celibacy. It should however never be inflicted on anyone due to how they are born. It should be entirely a choice. Yes Paul does advocate celibacy but he also says its better to get married .

Celibacy is a choice. Homosexuals, just like heterosexuals, get to CHOOSE whether or not they fornicate.

(marriage is what I myself classify as a monogamous commited relationship) rather than burning with lust. I dread to think the emotional mess I'd be if I tried to shut out how I feel about my partner

This only works if you have taken God's place on HIS THRONE. He has defined what marriage is. And no matter how much people would like to equate their committed, monogamous relationships to what GOD defines as marriage it ain't so.

A homosexual monogamous relationship is nothing more than a pattern of disobedience in which someone has become comfortable. And nowhere in God's Word does He ever say that someone can genuinelly be His Child and continue in a life of disobedience. He says the opposite. when a Christian disobeys, he is chastened into righteousness.

For almost 2000 years the majority of the church in the West thought black people were inferior citizens, any monks, holy priests and nuns thought so too. What happened? We realized discrimination of any kind is unbiblical.

I'd ask you a question. Other than "because the Bible says" what makes homosexual inherantly bad and damaging to the individual if in the context of a monogamous relationship?

I's answer that by saying as Christians, either we stand on teh Word of a Holy God as absolute, and the final arbiter of Truth or you open the door to everyone's version of what should be truth.

A monogamous, homosexual relationship is STILL fornication because it is outside God's defined husband-wife marriage covenant.

 

[HaloHope]

To our human mind it may be irrational. But God has a plan for everything. I admit it can be a huge struggle. It is not uncommon for me to doubt God, or to try and convince myself that having a romantic relationship with a guy is OK. It is a huge cross to bear, and one needs friends, family, and loved ones to struggle against it and bear it. You are saying that this struggle is innate. Are not alcoholics innately an alcoholic if they are born from alcoholic parents and have tendencies to over drink? It is not something that they can help. They were born with such tendencies. But that doesn't mean that they can get drunk and say "Well, I was born with these alcoholic tendencies."

You can of course free to believe what you believe, I can respect that. I dont think the comparsion between alchoholism and homosexuality is a fair one as once more alchoholism harms people physically and can lead them to harm others, theres a reason for it being resisted. It damages people. Homosexuality dosent.

As I mentioned in my OP, one's sexuality is not "who a person is". This is an influence of the current Western culture. I am not defined by my "being gay" (but as I said in the OP, I am only saying this to make more sense, though the correct terminology should be "I struggle with same-sex passions"). And it does, indeed, harm someone. It harms those who practice is! Because all sin hurts us and those around us. My sin directly influences and harms my family and myself.

But how? How exactly does homosexuality harm someone? Why is it a sin, Im afraid "because the Bible possibly says" is not a good reason, nearly all sin has rational, realistic reasons why its wrong. Homosexuality dosent. At all.

As for self identity, I think its an important thing, im happy to say I'm gay or homosexual or whatever as my relationship is a big part of my life. Just like a hetrosexual will say "I'm married" for example.

I wish I could feel what you feel. I mean, I can, I just don't let myself because I firmly believe it is wrong to have a romantic relationship in that context. As I am sure you will agree, and I try to focus on this, Gos is love. IS. God's love is infinitely more amazing and fantastic than anything we have experienced on Earth or can even begin to remotely fathom.

Sure I agree, Gods love is amazing! But if we werent mean to love others we wouldnt have the capacity for romantic love in the first place and it wouldnt be such a wonderful joy filled emotion. On earth our interactions and relationships with others are a core part of our time here, and for people who dont want to miss out on a romantic relationship to miss out on due to their sexuality is a very grave thing.

The Bible really is clear on the teaching. It's only in the last few decades that people have decided to twist those verses to suit their own homosexual agendas. This also goes to a deeper problem where one interprets the Bible as they please, which goes into the necessity of the Holy Church, THE Church, to guide us (because the Holy Spirit has guided the Church in Her interpretation), but that's a completely different topic.

When I first read the Bible I never saw any mention of homosexuality. It was only when my mother pointed out the evil gays because of her interpretation I did. Even then I thought the verses were ropey.. and they really are.. 4-5 verses? The world homosexual mentioned twice and the word only first appearing in the late 19th century? "Mastobaters" being used in earliar versions instead of the word homosexual? Its pretty ropey. At best. It ccertainly never speaks of monogamous homosexuality.

First, you are assuming that someone is "born gay". This is not proven, and there are many scientific theories abound. Nothing is proven yet as to the origin of such feelings. Indeed, as Paul says, marriage is better than lust, but celibacy is very good if one can handle it. If one is "gay" and cannot be celibate, I am not sure what to do. It is something to talk to with one's priest. And again, it's your own definition of what marriage means, despite the clear "Man united with woman" that the Bible and the Church teaches, and has taught for nearly 2,000 years.

Im aware its not proven, its just what I believe. Under your interpreation if one is gay and cannot be celibate theyre surely destined for hell, hardly seems fair in the context of what Paul says. Hardly the instructions of a just God. Which is why I feel my interpreatation makes more sense.

The man united with women thing is another odd one, one can assume in Biblical times the readers of the Bible were all hetrosexual men by presumably hetrosexual men, so one could argue it was written to the majority. It never says "only man and woman" ever, incidentally.

Well, I would argue that it's only been the past 400-500 years or less, really. I am not so clear on Church development in the West. I know in the East such problems did not arise to my knowledge, as the Orthodox Church is comprised of many different ethnicities.

My general point was that society becomes more enlightened and when it becomes more sympathetic and acknowledges the plight of others thats a good thing. The same imho applies to the church, and I hope in time that gay people will be accepted in more and more churches freely, even when in a relationship. Its gradually happening a lot more here in the UK for example.

Nothing. Outside of belief in God, belief in the Bible as the inerrant Word of God, and belief that the Holy Spirit guides the Church in interpretation of the Bible and in all things, there is nothing that one can use to say that living in a homosexual romantic relationship is wrong. Outside of God, the Bible, and the Church, many things can be justified.

Love in Christ,
Justin

Again I disagree, even the most secular humanist will say murder is bad, rape is bad. Non-theists can be a damn site more moral than Christians in the way they treat others (in my experience). Dosent it strike you odd that almost all sin has a obvious damage it does (or can cause) to a person or others physical or emotional and monogamous homosexuality and hetrosexuality are the only things that don't sexual sin wise?

 

[*Starlight*]

Hi there!

It causes harm to one's soul, as all sin does. Now, the matter of seeing it as a sin or not is dependent on one's "interpretation" of the Bible (which would lead me to point above regarding the 2,000 years of teaching). But any sin is damaging. Celibacy is not to be looked down upon, but to be seen as a gift from God.

Hmm... I see one problem here, you're using a circular argument. I asked what kind of harm homosexuality causes that makes it a sin, and you said that it's a sin so it causes harm to a soul. But to say that it causes harm to a soul, you've already made the assumption that it's a sin, and since it's something you're trying to prove, you can't assume it. The logical connection should be like that:

Fact: X causes harm ----> Implication of the fact: X is a sin.

While what you did is more like this:

Assumption: X is a sin -----> Implication of the assumption: X causes harm to a person's soul -----> Implication of the previous implication: X is a sin

Unfortunately, that reasoning "proves" that X is a sin only if you first assume that X is a sin, so it doesn't really prove anything at all...


As for the argument that Christians believed that for 2000 years... it doesn't mean that they were correct about it. There have been beliefs in the history of humanity that lasted much more than 2000 years, but still were eventually shown to be false... such as flat Earth.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

HaloHope, I would like to debate you in a seperate thread.

But for now PART ONE:

Originally Posted by HaloHope

I must admit it irrtiates me when people claim I don't know the love of God because I have a homosexual relationship.[/quote]

Which people would that be?

I do know the love of God he has been there for me time and time again, he has been there time and time again for both me and AND my partner, and even us as a couple.

Is it "OK" that Christians that affirm the New Testament witness see that "you and your partner" can never be seen in a "marriage" as "husband and wife," cannot apply to your "partnership" status? We have to change the faith delivered only once to the saints," for gays and lesbians?

Don't believe that? Its tough, because I know from personal experience he has and nobody can interfere with my relationship with God.

That is a New Testament truth that no one is between you and God.

Im aware God is love, Im aware of the joy he brings, the two of us recently got back from a pilgrimage together where we dedicated huge amounts of time to prayer and meditation.

Which god? By the way.

Talking about it to freinds and pastors isnt going to make it go away, praying to change things every day didnt change me. In fact the last person I'd talk to about my problems is a pastor if im brutally honest.

So, should the New Testament be re-written to accomodate your "feelings?" Even in the most gay theolgy way, there is no gay unions promoted in scripture. Your status says you are a Christian. Are my questions not fair to ask a Christian?

Human beings are built to be with another human being in the vast majority of cases, and being gay from birth (im assuming you feel that way?) and to NEVER EVER be able to share love with another human being is a monstrous, bitter and evil restriction to place on anyone.

How are we to know you are telling the truth? Your anatomy shows a sexual orientation that anyone can see is designed male to female. Unless of course you hide that fact. Are your thoughts more important than scripture in guiding the Church? That IS what the gay position seems to be: "We feel this way, and you have to support us or else."

I would not and could not feasibly worship such a God. However once again I will reiterate, God HAS blessed me, GOD has saved me, sure, I sin, we all do but my sexual orientation is nothing to do with that.

And yet, it is more than likely that the New Testament witness disagrees with your ideology.

So I shall continue to have a great relationship with God, I shall remain with my partner of three years for hopefully the rest of my life and we shall continue to have a great relationship with God. And there isnt really anything that can be done to get in the way of that.

There you go. Exactly how I described your position. No other kinds of Christians get such a pass.

I wish you happiness in your endevours in life, God Bless

Many kinds of people wish that to others.



​

 

[Polycarp_fan]

HaloHope PART TWO:

My feelings lie with the fact its an unrational cross to bare, ones natural orientation is an innate deep-set drive, part of who a person is it is a desire that when carried out in the context of monogamy harms nobody. Its irrational for it to be a sin, it would be a cruel God to force such a thing on anyone.

Monogamous same-gender relationships do not carry with it a sexual component. New Testament speaking wise.

My partner is my family, and she is my best freind too. We just happen to care for each other in a romantic sense too, just like a hetrosexual couple should.

Is it OK though, that a regular style Christian does not accept your personal opinions about sexual relationships?

Sure I can appreciate the love I have for my Mum or for freinds of mine, but it's not the same:- its not the same connection you have with the person you love, the person you want to share every waking moment with the person who holds you close at night.

Why, do you think, God designed intimate relationships (meaning sexual) to be between people off opposite genders? That IS the Biblical witness from Genesis to Jude. And beyond. Though it ends at death.

I believe romantic love to be one of the most wonderful things ive experienced in my life, and for people to be deprived of that just of their sexuality based on a few ropey at best Bible verses saddens me beyond all belief.

And what per se, would those "ropey" Bible versus be? There is not one place where same-gender sex acts are OK for believers, Israelite of Christian. If you demand that the entire history of Bible based beleifs are altered for your personal sexual tastes don't you need scriptural support? humanism has no authority over The Church. And, neither does Sappho.

Celibacy can be great if a person wishes celibacy. It should however never be inflicted on anyone due to how they are born. It should be entirely a choice. Yes Paul does advocate celibacy but he also says its better to get married (marriage is what I myself classify as a monogamous commited relationship) rather than burning with lust.

Marriage is a man and a woman to Paul too. he urged "Christians" to get "married" rather than to burn with lust.

I dread to think the emotional mess I'd be if I tried to shut out how I feel about my partner.

And so the entire worldwide Christian Church kas to alter Biblical truth because of your "personal feelings?"

For almost 2000 years the majority of the church in the West thought black people were inferior citizens, any monks, holy priests and nuns thought so too. What happened? We realized discrimination of any kind is unbiblical.

Care to back up that historical statemnt with some facts? "Christians" came from Roman Judea/Palestine. Africans were not enslaved by Eropeans until Europe was invented. There was no country of England, Spain, France and Holland when Christians began to grow. Unless you have some facts my history books have left out . . ., please teach me.

I'd ask you a question. Other than "because the Bible says" what makes homosexual inherantly bad and damaging to the individual if in the context of a monogamous relationship?

It destroys the truth of what a family "is," what marriage "is" and what "Christian truth" is.

Other than that . . . not much.

Gay culture certainly seems to be antithetical to Christian life, as it is explained by the Apostles and in the Gospels.

HaloHope,

I would like you to create a new thread to prove your idea of Christianity (Gay affirming) is acceptable to those others of us that see scriptures differently than you. If everyone goes on their personal feelings, than how can there be a Christian reality; called The Church, in any way?

 

[HaloHope]

Ah Polycarp:- I got to the bit when you said "Which God?" and stopped reading, im not going to have any discussion with someone who can be so offensive in a conversation, you can question my beliefs all you want but when you stoop that low you forfeit any right to a proper debate. How dare you. Oh and glancing down your post.. why on earth would I care about Sappho at all? Im my own person.

JustinHesychast - more than happy to continue this discussion with yourself as its a very interesting topic when kept within reasonable boundries.