What Happens if Christians Ignore the Teachings of Jesus?

[calluna]

Huh?

Think about it.

 

[nobdysfool]

Think about it.

Nothing to think about. Calvinists are definitely NOT Catholics.

 

[calluna]

Nothing to think about. Calvinists are definitely NOT Catholics.

So they keep insisting.

 

[nobdysfool]

What proof do you have to the contrary?

 

[calluna]

What proof do you have to the contrary?

I'm not addressing you.

 

[mattlock73]

I'm not addressing you.

Since I was brought up Catholic and now belong to a Baptist church and am a subscriber to Calvin's thoughts on salvation, please educate me on how my former upbringing and my current theological position is in any way similar.

 

[nobdysfool]

I'm not addressing you.

Not, or won't?

You addressed me earlier, and made the remark. So don't blow smoke and deny that you were addressing me.

Baiting Calvinists is pretty juvenile. You obviously can't debate the theological points, so you play games. And, you think you're soooo clever doing so.

Care to deny it?

 

[chestertonrules]

We have a single authority, the Holy Spirit, and any who are saved already have direct access to Him. Unfortunately, some are hard of hearing and some are completely deaf to His voice.

A single authority is only meaningful if there is a single interpretation.

How do you explain the vast differences in central issues of faith,(ie. baptism, OSAS, eucharist, confession, etc.) among protestant faiths each of who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit.

Where does the error lie, with the Holy Spirit, or the interpretations?

 

[calluna]

A single authority is only meaningful if there is a single interpretation.

There is ever only one interpretation of Scripture that agrees with Scripture. (Ok, sometimes there are two alternatives, but they give no choice acceptable to the wayward mind.)

How do you explain the vast differences in central issues of faith,(ie. baptism, OSAS, eucharist, confession, etc.) among protestant faiths each of who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit.

Satan pays much more attention to Protestants (note the correct spelling, that Catholics often deliberately fail to observe, so infantile are they) than Catholics/Orthodox, because they are dangerously close to the truth, and supplies more of his ministers peddling their varied twisted falsehoods in Protestantism. He can let the 'Tradition' people alone because they already have his own teachings in their 'traditions' (novelties) that simply contradict Scripture from outside Scripture. The common taunt of Catholics that there are 30 000 different Protestant flavors is quite an exaggeration, but it is probably no exaggeration to say that the central tenets of Protestantism are 30 000 times more credible than the teachings of the Vatican in the minds of both Bible readers and the general public. The exceptions are such absurdities as infant baptism, a hangover from Catholicism; Calvinism, a pov closely related to Catholicism that most find horrendous; Young-Earth Creationism, that is widely ridiculed; and the 'charismatic' movement, that has been seen for what it is, mere play-acting. The evangelical core of Protestantism is much the most credible faith in the world today, and Satan is very bothered by that fact.

 

[chestertonrules]

There is ever only one interpretation of Scripture that agrees with Scripture. (Ok, sometimes there are two alternatives, but they give no choice acceptable to the wayward mind.)

Who determines which mind is wayward? I'm sorry, but there are multiple interpretations of hundreds of scripture passages.

Satan pays much more attention to Protestants (note the correct spelling, that Catholics often deliberately fail to observe, so infantile are they) than Catholics/Orthodox, because they are dangerously close to the truth, and supplies more of his ministers peddling their varied twisted falsehoods in Protestantism. He can let the 'Tradition' people alone because they already have his own teachings in their 'traditions' (novelties) that simply contradict Scripture from outside Scripture. The common taunt of Catholics that there are 30 000 different Protestant flavors is quite an exaggeration, but it is probably no exaggeration to say that the central tenets of Protestantism are 30 000 times more credible than the teachings of the Vatican in the minds of both Bible readers and the general public. The exceptions are such absurdities as infant baptism, a hangover from Catholicism; Calvinism, a pov closely related to Catholicism that most find horrendous; Young-Earth Creationism, that is widely ridiculed; and the 'charismatic' movement, that has been seen for what it is, mere play-acting. The evangelical core of Protestantism is much the most credible faith in the world today, and Satan is very bothered by that fact.

By the evangelical core of Protestantism I assume you mean Christianity as understood by Calluna. Am I wrong?

 

[mattlock73]

A single authority is only meaningful if there is a single interpretation.

How do you explain the vast differences in central issues of faith,(ie. baptism, OSAS, eucharist, confession, etc.) among protestant faiths each of who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit.

Where does the error lie, with the Holy Spirit, or the interpretations?

Personally I believe it lies with neither. I don't think that anyone has it all figured out yet, except God Himself, and I don't think that our finite minds could grasp it all even if He came down and explained it to us. Anyone who says that their interpretation of scripture is infallible is a charlatan or an ignoramus. I don't even think that God expects us to get it all right in this life, but I do think He expects us to try. If He wanted to spell it out for us, He could have, but I don't think God wants spoon-fed Christians. He spelled out enough for us to be saved, but not to unravel all of His mysteries without working at it. Obviously that is what He wanted, or the scriptures would be more clear on certain topics.

That's why I like to debate the ideas that separate us as denominations. I don't buy into the Baptist doctrine on all things, but they most closely match my own personal interpretation of scripture on most things. I like to hear other's interpretations on things because it forces me to look at things from new angles. Which I try to do without preconceived bias, but am not always successful. I have changed my mind on a lot of doctrinal issues over the years because I have listened to others, then gone back and studied the Word to prove them wrong, only to find myself proven wrong.

The Holy Spirit does not have to reveal everything all at once, nor has that been the experience of myself or of those who have mentored me. It is a gradual learning that depends a great deal, IMHO, on how strongly one applies them self. Anyway that's my 2 cents on the matter.

 

[mattlock73]

There is ever only one interpretation of Scripture that agrees with Scripture. (Ok, sometimes there are two alternatives, but they give no choice acceptable to the wayward mind.)


Satan pays much more attention to Protestants (note the correct spelling, that Catholics often deliberately fail to observe, so infantile are they) than Catholics/Orthodox, because they are dangerously close to the truth, and supplies more of his ministers peddling their varied twisted falsehoods in Protestantism. He can let the 'Tradition' people alone because they already have his own teachings in their 'traditions' (novelties) that simply contradict Scripture from outside Scripture. The common taunt of Catholics that there are 30 000 different Protestant flavors is quite an exaggeration, but it is probably no exaggeration to say that the central tenets of Protestantism are 30 000 times more credible than the teachings of the Vatican in the minds of both Bible readers and the general public. The exceptions are such absurdities as infant baptism, a hangover from Catholicism; Calvinism, a pov closely related to Catholicism that most find horrendous; Young-Earth Creationism, that is widely ridiculed; and the 'charismatic' movement, that has been seen for what it is, mere play-acting. The evangelical core of Protestantism is much the most credible faith in the world today, and Satan is very bothered by that fact.

Pride goeth before the fall. Pray tell, Calluna, how exactly are John Calvin's thoughts on salvation and Roman Catholicism's views on salvation anything even close to being similar? Lets compare shall we?

TULIP - Calvin's famous acronym.
Total Depravity - Nope the two theologies don't match.
Unconditional Election - Nope, not even close
Limited Atonement - This one I am not sure of completely, but I suspect not. Can a Catholic help me out here?
Irresistible Grace - Not even close once again.
Perseverance of the Saints - You could not get more opposite than these two theologies.

Calvinism, a pov closely related to Catholicism that most find horrendous;

Maybe you should try studying your claims to see if they hold water before actually making them.

 

[mattlock73]

By the evangelical core of Protestantism I assume you mean Christianity as understood by Calluna. Am I wrong?

You are not wrong, in this case anyway We may not agree on much, but we can agree on this.

 

[calluna]

Personally I believe it lies with neither. I don't think that anyone has it all figured out yet, except God Himself, and I don't think that our finite minds could grasp it all even if He came down and explained it to us. Anyone who says that their interpretation of scripture is infallible is a charlatan or an ignoramus. I don't even think that God expects us to get it all right in this life, but I do think He expects us to try.

Were the apostles confused?

 

[mattlock73]

Were the apostles confused?

I never asked them, but yes, I do think there was some confusion. As we plainly see in scripture, Peter and Paul were at odds about some things.

 

[calluna]

I never asked them, but yes, I do think there was some confusion. As we plainly see in scripture, Peter and Paul were at odds about some things.

What things were those?

 

[mattlock73]

What things were those?

I would suggest reading Gal 2. Here is some commentary on it.

Do you have no comment on your other posts concerning Catholicism and Calvinist theology?

 

[chestertonrules]

Personally I believe it lies with neither. I don't think that anyone has it all figured out yet, except God Himself, and I don't think that our finite minds could grasp it all even if He came down and explained it to us. Anyone who says that their interpretation of scripture is infallible is a charlatan or an ignoramus. I don't even think that God expects us to get it all right in this life, but I do think He expects us to try. If He wanted to spell it out for us, He could have, but I don't think God wants spoon-fed Christians. He spelled out enough for us to be saved, but not to unravel all of His mysteries without working at it. Obviously that is what He wanted, or the scriptures would be more clear on certain topics.

That's why I like to debate the ideas that separate us as denominations. I don't buy into the Baptist doctrine on all things, but they most closely match my own personal interpretation of scripture on most things. I like to hear other's interpretations on things because it forces me to look at things from new angles. Which I try to do without preconceived bias, but am not always successful. I have changed my mind on a lot of doctrinal issues over the years because I have listened to others, then gone back and studied the Word to prove them wrong, only to find myself proven wrong.

The Holy Spirit does not have to reveal everything all at once, nor has that been the experience of myself or of those who have mentored me. It is a gradual learning that depends a great deal, IMHO, on how strongly one applies them self. Anyway that's my 2 cents on the matter.

Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church. If Satan were able to allow lies to enter his Church, would this violate this promise?

Jesus prayed for unity among believers, that we might be one as he and the father are one. I believe this is only possible within the Catholic Church. This is one of the many reasons that I am confident that my conversion to Catholicism was God's will.

From a historical perspective, you have to ask yourself why God would let all of Christianity be practiced in error for over 1000 years.

Why do you think those early Christians got it wrong?

I think your answer can only be that you interpret scripture and the faith differently. The same could be said of Joseph Smith's position as well!
Best Regards,

Kyle

 

[calluna]

I would suggest reading Gal 2.

Peter's personal failure was not a confusion.

'I do think there was some confusion. As we plainly see in scripture, Peter and Paul were at odds about some things.'

What genuine example(s) of confusion did you have in mind?

 

[nobdysfool]

From a historical perspective, you have to ask yourself why God would let all of Christianity be practiced in error for over 1000 years.

Just as in the time of Elijah, God had reserved to Himself those who did not have it wrong.

Why do you think those early Christians got it wrong?

Because they got caught up in the minutia of the hierarchal entity that Jesus did not authorize (despite your claims to the contrary), and were seduced away from their first love, Christ, to the traditions of men, rituals and empty structure, which, as Jesus said of the Pharisees, was whitewashed and beautiful on the outside, but inside was full of dead men's bones..