Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

[Anglian]

Dear Jack,

The Anglican Church has always paid great honour to the Blessed Virgin. Beamishboy represents himself and a part of Anglicanism only.

peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Great thread!

We could incorporate much from there, over here.

NOOOO!! Incorporate the threads from here over to there!!!

 

[JacktheCatholic]

NOOOO!! Incorporate the threads from here over to there!!!

Do you want me to post over there?

OK

But I have to get back upstairs for now and entertain some guests.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Do you want me to post over there?

OK

But I have to get back upstairs for now and entertain some guests.

Here a thread on the "ascension of mary" with over 1500 responses

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6676587&page=38
The acension of Mary (2)

 

[Anglian]

Dear LLOJ and Jack,

Yes, if those who wish to pursue fixations with mothers could take it to the appropriate forum, we could get back to discussing the ECFs with those who do understand why the title of 'Theotokos' matters.

peace,

Anglian

 

[Rick Otto]

She is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God. She is the mother of God.

God is love. Love is blind. Ray Charles is God.

 

[Anglian]

God is love. Love is blind. Ray Charles is God.

Theotokos = Mother of God
Beamishtokos - mother of Beamish
but
Ottotokos sounds like a book store chain

Peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Dear LLOJ and Jack,

Yes, if those who wish to pursue fixations with mothers could take it to the appropriate forum, we could get back to discussing the ECFs with those who do understand why the title of 'Theotokos' matters.

peace,

Anglian

Greetings Anglian. Here was a thread concerning M. L. and the weird part is hardly anything is mentioned about him and his view on the mary that I could see. Here was an Anglican response:"

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6684357&page=20
Martin Luther On Veneration of Mary

Chesterton,

Here's a clue. Not the Nestorians, the Vatican, nor the Orthodox chuches think that the issue boils down to that simplistic conclusion ("So you deny the divinity of Jesus?"). Let's us do not less than they when discussing it.

On an earlier comment you made--

Is it correct to say that some of the Reformers were closer to modern Catholicism than to modern Protestants? No, not really. They are closer to modern Catholicism to the extent that modern Catholicism has adopted many of the ideas of the Reformers that the Church originally criticised. On basics, though, they remain much closer to modern Protestants than to modern Catholics...and it was the basics that they sought to emphasize themselves.

 

[Thekla]

God is love. Love is blind. Ray Charles is God.

love is not God

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

God is love. Love is blind. Ray Charles is God.

Btw, I have your siggy in my siggy.

 

[Secundulus]

The word trinity is not in scripture but we see Father Son and Holy Spirit..We can see in scripture that there is the Godhead. What we don't see in scripture is Mary being called Holy Theotokos.. What you are not understanding is that Christ was in the God head before He became man. He is the word made flesh.. Has always been and always will be. Mary was not His mother until He became flesh..

So, are you saying that the human jesus and the divine Jesus are two seperate beings? What does that do to your theology?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So, are you saying that the human jesus and the divine Jesus are two seperate beings? What does that do to your theology?

Hi Secundulus!!!! I see you and Montalban are keeping the Muslims honest on the NCR board

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7257197
Where does "allah" say...

 

[Anglian]

Dear Secundulus,

You help us get back to understanding why what the ECFs said matters.

Without them, our understanding of the Incarnation might be Nestorian. To remind people of what the Ortho-Wiki says on the history:

As a title for the Virgin Mary, Theotokos was recognized by the Orthodox Church at Third Ecumenical Council held at Ephesus in 431. It had already been in use for some time in the devotional and liturgical life of the Church. The theological significance of the title is to emphasize that Mary's son, Jesus, is fully God, as well as fully human, and that Jesus' two natures (divine and human) were united in a single Person of the Trinity. The competing view at that council was that Mary should be called Christotokos instead, meaning "Birth-giver to Christ." This was the view advocated by Nestorius, then Patriarch of Constantinople. The intent behind calling her Christotokos was to restrict her role to be only the mother of "Christ's humanity" and not his divine nature.
Nestorius' view was anathematized by the Council as heresy, (see Nestorianism), since it was considered to be dividing Jesus into two distinct persons, one who was Son of Mary, and another, the divine nature, who was not. It was defined that although Jesus has two natures, human and divine, these are eternally united in one personhood. Because Mary is the mother of God the Son, she is therefore duly entitled Theotokos.
Calling Mary the Theotokos or the Mother of God (Μητηρ Θεο&#965 was never meant to suggest that Mary was coeternal with God, or that she existed before Jesus Christ or God existed. The Church acknowledges the mystery in the words of this ancient hymn: "He whom the entire universe could not contain was contained within your womb, O Theotokos."

St. Cyril of Alexandria, along with the Fathers of the Council of Ephesus, insisted on calling Mary "Theotokos" not just to glorify her, but to safeguard a right doctrine of Christ's person, the Incarnation. Orthodox Christians feel that one cannot really believe in the Incarnation and not honor Mary. But the point is about the Incarnation and our understanding of that divine mystery. Again, to cite Ortho-Wiki:

If we affirm that Jesus Christ is God, then we must call her Theotokos, for she gave birth to God himself. Nestorius the heretic in the ancient Church refused to call her Theotokos, preferring instead Christotokos, because he could not understand the idea that a creature could give birth to the Creator, yet is this scandal not at the heart of the Incarnation? Nestorius's doctrines insisted on a separation between the divine Logos and the man Jesus, that somehow the Son of God had inhabited a man, not that God became man as the Christian faith has always held. Is the one who was in her womb God? Then we must call her Theotokos.

If He is not fully human as well as fully divine, then how are we saved? As St. Gregory Nazianzus reminded us 'What is not assumed is not healed.'

Peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

SIGH. I have had enuf of Mariology here. Interesting discussion over here between the Jews and Muslims

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7267384

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

St. Cyril of Alexandria, along with the Fathers of the Council of Ephesus, insisted on calling Mary "Theotokos" not just to glorify her, but to safeguard a right doctrine of Christ's person, the Incarnation. Orthodox Christians feel that one cannot really believe in the Incarnation and not honor Mary. But the point is about the Incarnation and our understanding of that divine mystery.

Greetings. How did the early ECFs view that "divine mystery" in Revelation?

Colo 1:26 The Mystery having been hid from the ages and from the generations now yet was made manifest to the holy-ones of Him. 27 To-whom wills, the GOD, to make known any the riches of the glory of the Mystery, this, in the Nations which is Christ in ye the hope of glory.

Revelation 10:7 But in the Days of the voice of the seventh messenger, when-ever he may be being about to be trumpeting, also is finish the Mystery of the GOD, as He brings Good-Message to His bond-servants, the prophets.

 

[Rick Otto]

love is not God

I know.
Backwards it got have you.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I know.
Backwards it got have you.

 

[Anglian]

Dear LLOJ,

You misunderstand, my last post shows why the views of the ECFs matter and how those who have helped us know what was, and was not, Holy Scripture, have also helped us understand the mystery of the Incarnation.

If we don't know who Christ is, then how can we properly confess Him as Lord, and how can we be saved? The ECFs, rightly, took the task of helping us to understand the Scriptures very seriously. That is why it is profitable to read them - that and the fact that by the time one gets to the third and fourth centuries, their writings are saturated in the Holy Scriptures, of which they help us towards a deeper comprehension.

Who cares? Everyone who wishes to understand more than their own unaided efforts provide; everyone who has ever used a commentary; every Christian who feels there is more to learn and that learning and growth in the way of the Lord are at the centre of their prayer life.

We all grow in Christ in our own traditions, and the ECFs are available to all.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[Secundulus]

A mere expression of happiness. All generations will say I'm happy. To this day we agree she was happy and blessed to bear Jesus. But you guys turn the happiness into a special state that demands "veneration" meaning, praises, bowing, kneeling, having processions of idols, etc etc

Besides being a sin, arrogance is unseemly in anyone. But it is especially ridiculous in one who doesn't know what he is talking about.

The word Blessed that you are talking about is εὐλογέω in Greek. It does not mean to be happy. If your priest told you that then he is either suffering from ignorance or is a victim of his own predjudices.


εὐλογημένη (εὐλογέω)

• verb, perfect, passive, participle, singular, nominative, feminine
• "eulogēmenē"
• "eulogeō"
• "having been well spoken of"
• "to speak well of, praise"

2328 εὐλογέω (eulogeō): vb.; ≡ DBLHebr 1385; Str 2127; TDNT 2.754—1. LN 33.356 praise, give thanks to, speak well of (Jas 3:9); 2. LN 33.470 bless (Ro 12:14); 3. LN 88.69 act. kindly toward, bless, provide benefits (Eph 1:3; Ac 3:25 v.r.)​

Swanson, James: Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains : Greek (New Testament). electronic ed. Oak Harbor : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997

Secondly, it is the same word that is used here.

Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. The Holy Bible : King James Version. electronic ed. of the 1769 edition of the 1611 Authorized Version. Bellingham WA : Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1995, S. Lk 13:35

Are you now going to tell me that we should just think of Jesus as happy when we read this verse.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You misunderstand, my last post shows why the views of the ECFs matter and how those who have helped us know what was, and was not, Holy Scripture, have also helped us understand the mystery of the Incarnation.

Greetings Anglian. That is still a topic for the Mariology board and why that Board was created is that not correct? I also didn't see a response to this post:

Greetings. How did the early ECFs view that "divine mystery" in Revelation?

Colo 1:26 The Mystery having been hid from the ages and from the generations now yet was made manifest to the holy-ones of Him. 27 To-whom wills, the GOD, to make known any the riches of the glory of the Mystery, this, in the Nations which is Christ in ye the hope of glory.

Revelation 10:7 But in the Days of the voice of the seventh messenger, when-ever he may be being about to be trumpeting, also is finish the Mystery of the GOD, as He brings Good-Message to His bond-servants, the prophets.