Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

[beamishboy]

Let me ask the same question for the fourth time:

Mary's mother is Jesus' grandmother. Jesus is God. She must be the Holy Grandmother of God. (I'm using the same logic you guys have been repeating on this thread ad nauseam). Do you guys venerate the Holy Grandmother of God, the TheoGramps?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Unfortunately, what our Christian ancestors believed is of no consequence to many of the people who have posted here. Neither is it important how our Christian ancestors interpreted the Scriptures. From what people here have said, it would seem that the only thing that is important is how we, NOW, interpret the Scriptures.

NOW???

So people can interpret scriptures different than the Apostles wrote them NOW?

Sorry but that would mean that God has changed. For me God is always the same now and forever. To me it would mean the worship of another God to change scriptural understandings as delivered from Christ to the Apostles and then taught and preserved.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Thanks Jack. I am collecting evidence which shows that the concept of assumption is incorrect and something created recently. We know it's a new-fangled idea and your "Liturgy of St Chrysostom" clearly shows that Mary was counted as one of those who died.

But I don't care much for non-canonical works because they have been so badly tampered with.

Good luck with proving the Assumption wrong.

You will be going against 2000 years of teachings and study by millions of people and many of those men smarter and more knowledgable then you or me.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well from now on we will call you bouncing LLOJ..

I just happen to find all this discussion on the mary "boring" and why I rarely visit the Mariology board.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Why is there this compelling need to make her special?

The Anglican church sees Mary as special. Why don't you adhere to them?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Anglican church sees Mary as special. Why don't you adhere to them?

Hi JtC. How come you don't take this discussion to the Mariology board and let us go on to a different discussion on the ECFs such as this one:.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7263327

 

[Anglian]

Let me ask the same question for the fourth time:

Mary's mother is Jesus' grandmother. Jesus is God. She must be the Holy Grandmother of God. (I'm using the same logic you guys have been repeating on this thread ad nauseam). Do you guys venerate the Holy Grandmother of God, the TheoGramps?

Dear Beamishboy,

Again, from the Orthodox wiki:

The Orthodox Church honors the Mother of God on account of the Son. St. Cyril of Alexandria, along with the Fathers of the Council of Ephesus, insisted on calling Mary "Theotokos" not just to glorify her, but to safeguard a right doctrine of Christ's person, the Incarnation. Orthodox Christians feel that one cannot really believe in the Incarnation and not honor Mary.

This being so, if you knew more about the history of your own Faith (try reading the ECFs) you'd know that safeguarding the right doctrine has never involved making pronouncements about St. Mary's parents.

Unlike your good self, the Orthodox Church is not in the habit of making pronouncements where there is no need.

Amongst the questions remaining unanswered:
- have you ever been to an Orthodox Church?
- how can you claim I am hiding the true nature of veneration if you have never seen what Orthodox do?
- will you now withdraw the allegation I am hiding something about the Orthodox and veneration?

Peace,

Anglian

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Hi JtC. How come you don't take this discussion to the Mariology board and let us go on to a different discussion on the ECFs such as this one:.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7263327

LOL

Not again...

Of course what I am stating is related. But much like the attorney presenting a case, I need the chance to tie it all together. But alas... a mod will probably delete my post and place me on staff notice.

 

[beamishboy]

Good luck with proving the Assumption wrong.

You will be going against 2000 years of teachings and study by millions of people and many of those men smarter and more knowledgable then you or me.

2000 years! That can't be true. Even your Liturgy of St Chrysostom mentions that Mary died. You had to add you own comment that we NOW know she's assumed.

The doctrine of assumption is certainly not 2000 years old. It is not even 1500 years old. The veneration of Mary is older than the assumption. But even then, Marian veneration is certainly post-apostolic. But the assumption is a new-fangled doctrine which was bolstered by the 19th century pope declaring it ex cathedra so it can't be questioned by RCs now under pain of excommunication.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Now do take a tablet for the Roman fever my dear, and calm down.
peace,
Anglian

Roman fever

John 11:48 "If-ever we may be be letting Him thus, all shall be believing in Him.
And shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away of Us and the Place and the Nation

Reve 6:6 And I hear as a-sound in midst of the four living-ones, saying: "choinex of grain of Denarius and three choinex of barleys of Denarius and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".

http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/

................The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem [Judea], was the feast of the Passover. At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival and the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers,...........

How come no one responded to this post

 

[Thekla]

Yes Paul spoke of these but what Paul did not do was venerate them and lift them up for us to pray to or bow down to. What Paul Did was show us what Faith is through the workings of these men..This is what Paul was speaking o here was faith.. Venerate is just a form of worship using a differen play on word so that those who do so cannot be said of worshipping them but vererating them.. Just a play on words..

as I showed previously, the words venerate and esteem are synonymous in English.

we are shown what Faith is through the workings of all who do God's will.

again and again, we do not worship these

 

[Anglian]

Dear LLOJ,

If someone could persuade the Beamishboy to take a tablet for his Roman fever, we could get back to discussing the Fathers; but he seems obsessed with the mother.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LOL

Not again...

Of course what I am stating is related. But much like the attorney presenting a case, I need the chance to tie it all together. But alas... a mod will probably delete my post and place me on staff notice.

I have a few of those myself

 

[beamishboy]

The Anglican church sees Mary as special. Why don't you adhere to them?

Is that the only answer you can give? There is no reason to assume Mary as special except that some churches see her as special. Oh, I forgot, you have to say Credo to anything your pope says.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

2000 years! That can't be true. Even your Liturgy of St Chrysostom mentions that Mary died. You had to add you own comment that we NOW know she's assumed.

The doctrine of assumption is certainly not 2000 years old. It is not even 1500 years old. The veneration of Mary is older than the assumption. But even then, Marian veneration is certainly post-apostolic. But the assumption is a new-fangled doctrine which was bolstered by the 19th century pope declaring it ex cathedra so it can't be questioned by RCs now under pain of excommunication.

The assumption can mean she died and was assumed or that she was alive and was assumed in to Heaven. You will find Apocraphal writings dating to the early church teaching this story of her assumption. You will also find that churches were made in Mary's name and that one was made in accord with St James (the Apostle) who was visited by Mary after her assumption.

There is much history on Mary being venerated all the way back to the Apostles themselves. Even the Anglican church sees and knows this and that is why Anglican's are reverting back to their Catholic ways of venerating Mary.

 

[Anglian]

Dear Beamishboy,

A further tablet against your Roman fever from the Orthodox wiki which further elaborates what we Orthodox mean.

Are you going to engage with these and answer my questions?

The ancient Christian titles for Mary, Theotokos ("Birth-giver to God") and Meter Theou ("Mother of God"), are not to be understood in the sense that she somehow created God. Even mothers giving birth to exclusively human children do not create their children. Rather, these titles for the Virgin are an affirmation that the Christ contained in her womb is indeed God, the Theanthropos ("God-man"). She is not his origin nor the source of the Godhead, but she did quite literally give birth to God. If we affirm that Jesus Christ is God, then we must call her Theotokos, for she gave birth to God himself. Nestorius the heretic in the ancient Church refused to call her Theotokos, preferring instead Christotokos, because he could not understand the idea that a creature could give birth to the Creator, yet is this scandal not at the heart of the Incarnation? Nestorius's doctrines insisted on a separation between the divine Logos and the man Jesus, that somehow the Son of God had inhabited a man, not that God became man as the Christian faith has always held. Is the one who was in her womb God? Then we must call her Theotokos.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Is that the only answer you can give? There is no reason to assume Mary as special except that some churches see her as special. Oh, I forgot, you have to say Credo to anything your pope says.

I am not using the Pope or the Magesterium to show that Mary is to be honored and venerated, I am using the same church you claim membership to (the Anglican church).

 

[JacktheCatholic]

From a document that dates to 400 AD at least we see the teachings in Christianity for Mary being assumed into Heaven.

I am providing a link to these works and these works fall into the time period of the ECFs.

LINK: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0832.htm

 

[beamishboy]

There is much history on Mary being venerated all the way back to the Apostles themselves.

I call that statement a lie. Prove it or withdraw it.

 

[Anglian]

I am not using the Pope or the Magesterium to show that Mary is to be honored and venerated, I am using the same church you claim membership to (the Anglican church).

Dear Jack,

To be fair, he has already told us he doesn't give 'a toss' for what his Church says on this, or anything else which departs from the true faith as revealed to himself.

As in 'Highlander', the can be only one - B16 or B1.

Peace,

Anglian