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Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

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beamishboy

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She is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God. She is the mother of God.

Nobody has answered this question of mine posted earlier in this thread: Mary's mother is the grandmother of Jesus. Jesus is God. Do you guys venerate Jesus' grandmother as the Holy Grandmother of God?

Anglian will confirm that in the Eastern tradition and in the Middle East, respect for one's grandmother is extreme.
 
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Thekla

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Where does it say that someone who is called "blessed" (those who do those things in the beatitudes are also called blessed) must be venerated? Don't hide behind the word "veneration". Think of all the things that are done to and for Mary in the name of veneration. Do I have to list them again?

is it inappropriate veneration for Christ to refer to the bosom of Abraham ?

was it inappropriate for Paul to mention Abraham as an example of righteousness ?

or Luke to speak of John the Baptist's parents likewise ?

1. venerate is synonymous with esteem in English

2. please respond to the points of the post if you will
 
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Anglian

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The fullness of the Godhead was not born in this manner.. Only the word was making Mary the Mother of the word that became flesh. Now we do not reconginze Christ this way any longer. In fact we are to not recognize any man according to the flesh.
No one asserted the whole of the Godhead was Incarnate, just the Word, but since the Word is of one essence with the Father and the Son we cannot separate them, so in giving birth to the Word the Church recognised the Blessed Theotokos gave birth to God.

That has been the understanding of Christians as expressed in the Nicene Creed; do you accept the Nicene Creed?

Peace,

Anglian
 
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beamishboy

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is it inappropriate veneration for Christ to refer to the bosom of Abraham ?

was it inappropriate for Paul to mention Abraham as an example of righteousness ?

or Luke to speak of John the Baptist's parents likewise ?

1. venerate is synonymous with esteem in English

2. please respond to the points of the post if you will

Please don't play games. It is all right to esteem someone or to respect him. But let's not pretend. We know that veneration of Mary is not the same as saying someone is righteous or showing him respect. Click on google "veneration of Mary" and you will get a picture. Thekla, I can't believe you don't know the full ambit of "veneration".
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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beamishboy

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Indeed. But people here like Beamishboy choose to ignore such things and then demand we show what was so special about her.

I say so what? What about Mary's mother? She is the grandmother of Jesus. Jesus is God. She is the Holy Grandmother of God. Do you venerate her? Or do you wish to evade this question and continue to pretend I haven't answered your elusive questions?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Wow LLOJ you get yourself into some battles tee hee... Praying for you brother..
:) I bounce between the Heathens and RCs/Orthodox/Protestant debates on the ECFs. :p
 
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Anglian

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Nobody has answered this question of mine posted earlier in this thread: Mary's mother is the grandmother of Jesus. Jesus is God. Do you guys venerate Jesus' grandmother as the Holy Grandmother of God?

Anglian will confirm that in the Eastern tradition and in the Middle East, respect for one's grandmother is extreme.
Dear Beamishboy,

Article VIII of your prayer book accepts the Nicene Creed, and I had not heard it repudiated what was agreed at Ephesus in AD 431.

Your question makes no sense. Look again at what St. Cyril wrote, and what your own Archbishop wrote in his excellent book on the Arian heresy. Both argue that since it it heresy to separate the Three Persons of the Trinity, in giving birth to the Incarnate Word, the Blessed Theotokos gave birth to True God. If you knew more about Holy Tradition, you'd know your own Church accepts this and always has.

Goodness me, that Roman fever really does distract you from some of the things I should have expected you to have known.

peace,

Anglian

 
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Thekla

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Please don't play games. It is all right to esteem someone or to respect him. But let's not pretend. We know that veneration of Mary is not the same as saying someone is righteous or showing him respect. Click on google "veneration of Mary" and you will get a picture. Thekla, I can't believe you don't know the full ambit of "veneration".

I am not playing games.

maybe you would be a good sport and respond to the actual points in the post ;)

As to veneration; are small metanoias (prostrations) and great metanoias
a part of Anglican practice; also making the sign of the cross, etc.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Goodness me, that Roman fever really does distract you from some of the things I should have expected you to have known.
peace,
Anglian
So then, let's talk about the Romans. :thumbsup:

John 11:48 "If-ever we may be letting Him thus, all shall be believing into Him, and shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking-away/ of Us and the Place and the Nation."

Reve 12:8 and not He is strong, neither Place found of Them still in the Heaven.
 
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beamishboy

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[/size][/size]
Do calm down dear.

Post 855:

For the Orthodox to call her 'blessed' is to venerate her.

And do, please, beat that sword into a ploughshare, the only damage you do with it is to yourself.

peace,

Anglian


I don't call her "blessed" as if that is a title. I just use "blessed" the way the Bible uses it which is to mean "happy". She was blessed/happy to bear Jesus. That is all. She can't be sad to bear Jesus!

If that's your idea of veneration, it must be a very lonely idea. Surely veneration of Mary will require you to stare fondly on an icon of her, kneel to it, bow to it and pray to it? Those are the things I won't ever do.

If merely saying Mary was blessed/happy to bear Jesus is your idea of veneration, then all Protestants including the most fundamentalist Baptists venerate Mary. Surely that is not correct. You're just hiding away the other prerequisites of "veneration".
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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If merely saying Mary was blessed/happy to bear Jesus is your idea of veneration, then all Protestants including the most fundamentalist Baptists venerate Mary. Surely that is not correct. You're just hiding away the other prerequisites of "veneration".
Greetings bm. Could you PLEASE take this to the Mariology board. Thanks. :wave:
 
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bbbbbbb

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My dear bbbbbbb,

That is not enough. Where is an idol of each one of us? Where is our shrine, our altar? Where is our idols and where are the people who should kiss our idols, bow to them and kneel to them. Where are the prayers offered to us. The equivalent of the Hail Mary? Where is the prayer for the consecration of our sacred hearts? Where is our Assumption? You did not declare our sinlessness. RC doctrine has it that Mary had no sin; not even the taint of original sin.

Patience, patience, my blessed and holy one. Please remember that Rome was not built in a day. I am working on these things, but I must confess that I will need a great deal of aid.
 
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MamaZ

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is it inappropriate veneration for Christ to refer to the bosom of Abraham ?

was it inappropriate for Paul to mention Abraham as an example of righteousness ?

or Luke to speak of John the Baptist's parents likewise ?

1. venerate is synonymous with esteem in English

2. please respond to the points of the post if you will
Yes Paul spoke of these but what Paul did not do was venerate them and lift them up for us to pray to or bow down to. What Paul Did was show us what Faith is through the workings of these men..This is what Paul was speaking o here was faith.. Venerate is just a form of worship using a differen play on word so that those who do so cannot be said of worshipping them but vererating them.. Just a play on words..
 
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beamishboy

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Dear Beamishboy,

I have explained that for the Orthodox to call St. Mary blessed is to venerate her.

And no, I don't want, yet again, a list of your problems with Rome; take them across the Tiber yourself.

Your Roman fever is so virulent that you seem to think that Orthodox veneration contains all the things you mention to B7; if you've seen a statue in an Orthodox Church, do tell me where. Have you even been in an Orthodox Church?

When we bow to the Icon of the Incarnation we pay our respect much as your great uncle did when he bowed to the Queen; did that mean her worshipped her?


People bow to the Queen or to the Judge in court as a mark of respect. But they don't bow to a picture of the Queen or a picture of the Judge!!!

The Japanese expect their conquered people to bow to a photo of their Emperor. Many Christians were martyred because they refused to do that during World War II.

Bowing and kneeling to a photo or an idol is different.

My grandmother had a photograph of ...... a bust of Churchill. My grandparents did not worship either the late Earl of the late Prime Minister.

Neither did they bow or kneel to the bust or the photo.


 
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beamishboy

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Dear Beamishboy,

Article VIII of your prayer book accepts the Nicene Creed, and I had not heard it repudiated what was agreed at Ephesus in AD 431.

Your question makes no sense. Look again at what St. Cyril wrote, and what your own Archbishop wrote in his excellent book on the Arian heresy. Both argue that since it it heresy to separate the Three Persons of the Trinity, in giving birth to the Incarnate Word, the Blessed Theotokos gave birth to True God. If you knew more about Holy Tradition, you'd know your own Church accepts this and always has.

Goodness me, that Roman fever really does distract you from some of the things I should have expected you to have known.

peace,

Anglian

How well you evade my question. Montalban has done so too.
 
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Anglian

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You're just hiding away the other prerequisites of "veneration".
How very sad.

Have you ever been into an Orthodox Church?
How can you pretend to know what Orthodox veneration of the Blessed Theotokos means if you've never seen it?

The Roman fever seems to be making you rave a little.

Since you didn't respond to my explanation of the title Theotokos, I offer you something simpler from the OrthoWiki:
1. Adoption at the Third Ecumenical Council As a title for the Virgin Mary, Theotokos was recognized by the Orthodox Church at Third Ecumenical Council held at Ephesus in 431. It had already been in use for some time in the devotional and liturgical life of the Church. The theological significance of the title is to emphasize that Mary's son, Jesus, is fully God, as well as fully human, and that Jesus' two natures (divine and human) were united in a single Person of the Trinity. The competing view at that council was that Mary should be called Christotokos instead, meaning "Birth-giver to Christ." This was the view advocated by Nestorius, then Patriarch of Constantinople. The intent behind calling her Christotokos was to restrict her role to be only the mother of "Christ's humanity" and not his divine nature.
Nestorius' view was anathematized by the Council as heresy, (see Nestorianism), since it was considered to be dividing Jesus into two distinct persons, one who was Son of Mary, and another, the divine nature, who was not. It was defined that although Jesus has two natures, human and divine, these are eternally united in one personhood. Because Mary is the mother of God the Son, she is therefore duly entitled Theotokos.
Calling Mary the Theotokos or the Mother of God (Μητηρ Θεου) was never meant to suggest that Mary was coeternal with God, or that she existed before Jesus Christ or God existed. The Church acknowledges the mystery in the words of this ancient hymn: "He whom the entire universe could not contain was contained within your womb, O Theotokos."
The title "Theotokos" continues to be used frequently in the hymns of the Orthodox Church.
2. Translating the word Theotokos While some languages used by various Orthodox churches often have a single native word for Theotokos, it gets translated into English in a number of ways. The most common is Mother of God, though God-bearer and Birth-giver to God are also fairly common. There are difficulties with all these translations, however. The most literally correct one is Birth-giver to God, though God-bearer comes close. Theophoros (Θεοφορος) is the Greek term usually and more correctly translated as God-bearer, so using God-bearer for Theotokos in some sense "orphans" Theophoros when it comes time to translate that term (for St. Ignatius of Antioch, for instance). The main difficulties with both these translations for Theotokos is that they are a bit awkward and difficult to sing.
The most popular translation, Mother of God, is accurate to a point, but the difficulty with that one is that Mother of God is the literal translation of another Greek phrase which is found on nearly all icons of the Theotokos: Μητηρ Θεου (Meter Theou), usually in the standard iconographic abbreviation of ΜΡ ΘΥ. Additionally, a number of hymns employ both Theotokos and Meter Theou—translating both as Mother of God can yield some rather nonsensical language, and it destroys the distinction that the hymnographer intended.
The usage that seems to be dominant in English-speaking Orthodox churches in North America is to adopt the original term itself into English (something English speakers have traditionally done with foreign words almost since the earliest known history of the language), transliterating it simply as Theotokos. British usage gives preference to translating Theotokos as Mother of God.

Now do take a tablet for the Roman fever my dear, and calm down.

peace,

Anglian
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Now do take a tablet for the Roman fever my dear, and calm down.
peace,
Anglian
Roman fever :)

John 11:48 "If-ever we may be be letting Him thus, all shall be believing in Him.
And shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away of Us and the Place and the Nation

Reve 6:6 And I hear as a-sound in midst of the four living-ones, saying: "choinex of grain of Denarius and three choinex of barleys of Denarius and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".

http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/

................The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem [Judea], was the feast of the Passover. At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival and the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers,...........
 
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Anglian

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How well you evade my question. Montalban has done so too.
Dear Beamishboy,

Your failure to understand the history of the title Theotokos, and of your own Christian history does not amount to an evasion of your question. Do read the Orthodwiki article.

Peace,

Anglian
 
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