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Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

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beamishboy

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The conclusion I draw is you still haven't shown 'why'. You invent that he's reprimanding her when in fact he's talking to others.

At best Jesus is saying to a group of others "Don't call my mother Blessed, you are blessed" That's your best translation.

But instead you get from this - when he's talking to others - that he's reprimanding her.

And as noted you cherry-pick, ignoring the questions I've put to you, and here not showing why.

Perhaps that's the English public school system that says "Repeat your stance often enough, and it becomes true".

And why didn't you answer my question what your reaction would be in that scenario and you are my Mum's friend? Perhaps the same can be said of the Australian school system? Avoid a knotty problem like the plague and all will be well?
 
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beamishboy

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On this thread alone you accused someone of not dealing with those passages when they had.

And you accuse someone of not answering your elusive questions when he has. Is it so hard to come up with the questions again? Is ambiguity so fun to you?
 
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Thekla

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Sheesh, I think you people jump to strange conclusions. I didn't say my "howdy" meant "blessed" or "happy". Howdy is just a greeting, like Hi. I was saying that the BCT is a Bible for teenagers and it's in contemporary language. At no point did I say that the "blessed" used by the angel and the "blessed" used in the beatitudes were the same word as the blessed used by Mary on herself. The sermon on the mount, by the way, is not only the beatitudes. I said Jesus started out his sermon with a "Howdy". The beatitudes do not appear at the very start of the Sermon on the Mount.

You guys are really grasping at straws and doing it very badly too.

no, just assuming that you meant your translation to be consistent with the originating text ^_^

neither Matthew or Luke record an originating greeting before the teaching of the beatitudes, therefore the only word that could be associated with "howdy" per the discussion is makarios.

I mentioned the word makarios - and its use in the Beatitudes for comparison with the use of the same word per Elizabeth and Mary. I assumed you were following the discussion.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Sheesh, I think you people jump to strange conclusions. I didn't say my "howdy" meant "blessed" or "happy". Howdy is just a greeting, like Hi. I was saying that the BCT is a Bible for teenagers and it's in contemporary language. At no point did I say that the "blessed" used by the angel and the "blessed" used in the beatitudes were the same word as the blessed used by Mary on herself. The sermon on the mount, by the way, is not only the beatitudes. I said Jesus started out his sermon with a "Howdy". The beatitudes do not appear at the very start of the Sermon on the Mount.
You must have been raised in Texas :D Here is where this form of "happy/blessed" is used in Revelation:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 5:6 "Happy/makarioi <3107> the ones-hungering and thirsting the righteousness, that they shall be being gorged".

Reve 14:13 And I hear sound out of the heaven saying: Write thee! Happy/makarioi <3107> the dead-ones, the ones in Lord dying from at present. Yea is saying the spirit, that they shall be resting out of the toils of them. For the works of them is following with them

makarioi <3107> Used 26 times 3 times in Revelation [14:13, 19:9, 22:14]
 
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beamishboy

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So where are we up to.

Beamishboy won't say that Mary was blessed. He refuses to answer that question. MamaZ believes that not answering questions is answering them.

Can you read? I have explained the error of the RC church in turning the word "blessed" into something it's not meant to be and you continue to ignore that. I went into the two greek words and gave my explanation and you ignored that.

He refuses to comment on whether Mary did anything out of the ordinary.

When was this question asked? This is the first time you raised it. Mary did nothing out of the ordinary. God did. God used her to bear Jesus.

He says that Jesus rebuked Mary - without an ability to show why. He bases this on a passage where Jesus isn't even speaking to Mary.

I said gentle and loving chiding. The first example I gave was at the Temple. He was ADDRESSING MARY. Can you please read my posts and not run away from them? Is your intention to tire me out by pretending your points have not been addressed?

He kept saying that people here haven't dealt with those passages, when they had.

No, you have not. Where? But of course you will ignore this and accuse me of ignoring you.

He comes up with a wholly novel re-interpretation of the Scriptures to have the Angel say to Mary something different.

Prove it. You are grossly misrepresenting the truth. That's not honest.

He ignores people raising the issue about how she is filled with blessing.

What does it mean to be filled with blessing? Did you just coin that or is it the invention of some church? Where in the Bible is there any mention of being filled with blessing? Of course where you are wrong, you will just ignore this and move on. Haha.

And this of course impresses MamaZ who has her own problems in answering questions and a tendency to apply straw-man

I'm sure you are as warped in your judgment about MamaZ as you are about me.
 
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beamishboy

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no, just assuming that you meant your translation to be consistent with the originating text ^_^

neither Matthew or Luke record an originating greeting before the teaching of the beatitudes, therefore the only word that could be associated with "howdy" per the discussion is makarios.

I mentioned the word makarios - and its use in the Beatitudes for comparison with the use of the same word per Elizabeth and Mary. I assumed you were following the discussion.

Have you nothing else to say? My little joke with "Howdy" has been twisted and abused beyond recognition, the way some of you twisted and abused the interpretation of Luke 11:27, 28.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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are you trying to "own" Hellenistic Greek again ^_^
Not unless he is trying to make another Catholic translation :D

Matthew 5:6 "Happy the ones-hungering and thirsting the righteousness, that they shall be being gorged/cortasqhsontai <5526> (5701) ".

Reve 21:6 And He said to me:" it-has-become. I Am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.
I, to the one thirsting, shall be giving out of the spring of the Water of the Life gratuitously". [John 7:37/Reve 22:17]
 
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Thekla

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Have you nothing else to say? My little joke with "Howdy" has been twisted and abused beyond recognition, the way some of you twisted and abused the interpretation of Luke 11:27, 28.

the word translated as "rather" can mean an affirmative (I return for the third time to my example in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe). Further, given the Biblical evidence, there is no ground for the assertion that Mary did not

1. hear the word of God (she quoted a swath of scripture when visiting Elizabeth) and received and acted on the word of God as conveyed by his ayyelos/messenger

2. keep the word of God

therefore we are left with the use of menoume as, "yes and"
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by beamishboy Have you nothing else to say? My little joke with "Howdy" has been twisted and abused beyond recognition, the way some of you twisted and abused the interpretation of Luke 11:27, 28.
Howdy bm. Unfortunately, vs 28 in Luke is the only place that greek word is used.

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

Luke 11:28 autoV <846> {HE} de <1161> {YET} eipen <2036> (5627) {SAID,} menounge <3304> {INDEED} makarioi <3107> {HAPPY/BLESSED} oi <3588> {THOSE} akouonteV <191> (5723) {HEARING} ton <3588> {THE} logon <3056> {WORD} tou <3588> {OF THE} qeou <2316> {GOD} kai <2532> {AND} fulassonteV <5442> (5723) {KEEPING/GUARDING} auton <846> {IT.}
 
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beamishboy

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the word translated as "rather" can mean an affirmative (I return for the third time to my example in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe). Further, given the Biblical evidence, there is no ground for the assertion that Mary did not

1. hear the word of God (she quoted a swath of scripture when visiting Elizabeth) and received and acted on the word of God as conveyed by his ayyelos/messenger

2. keep the word of God

therefore we are left with the use of menoume as, "yes and"

In the Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament, "menoun" is translated "rather". It goes on to explain, "The word is used correctively". That's the meaning in my translation too.

I'm not saying that since the word is used correctively, he is in fact saying "Rubbish, Mary is not blessed. Only those who hear God's word and obey it are blessed."

Rather (ie menoun; hehe) I'm saying that he is correcting the woman's fixation on Mary's blessedness and telling her and the rest of us that there is no big deal about Mary. In so far as she also hears God's word and obey it, she is, like all other faithful Christians, blessed.

Ergo, forget the veneration. Oops, this verse is only found in the BCT. Hey, again, this is only a joke, so please don't pick on this!!!!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Thekla

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In the Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament, "menoun" is translated "rather". It goes on to explain, "The word is used correctively". That's the meaning in my translation too.

I'm not saying that since the word is used correctively, he is in fact saying "Rubbish, Mary is not blessed. Only those who hear God's word and obey it are blessed."

Rather (ie menoun; hehe) I'm saying that he is correcting the woman's fixation on Mary's blessedness and telling her and the rest of us that there is no big deal about Mary. In so far as she also hears God's word and obey it, she is, like all other faithful Christians, blessed.

Ergo, forget the veneration. Oops, this verse is only found in the BCT. Hey, again, this is only a joke, so please don't pick on this!!!!
ah, claiming "Popish" authority for you and your text -- ok.

I'm EO and we don't have a "Pope" in this regard.

well, I'm glad you're comfortable with the translation-bias of your text.

but as far as the Greek goes, I find it debased that some try to "Colonialize" another's language.
 
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beamishboy

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LittleLambofJesus

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In the Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament, "menoun" is translated "rather". It goes on to explain, "The word is used correctively". That's the meaning in my translation too.

I'm not saying that since the word is used correctively, he is in fact saying "Rubbish, Mary is not blessed. Only those who hear God's word and obey it are blessed."

Rather (ie menoun; hehe) I'm saying that he is correcting the woman's fixation on Mary's blessedness and telling her and the rest of us that there is no big deal about Mary. In so far as she also hears God's word and obey it, she is, like all other faithful Christians, blessed........
Hi bm. Btw, what is the difference between these greek words # 5442 and #5083 which the NKJV translates as the same word. :wave:

Luke 11:28 He yet said "indeed/rather happy/blessed/makarioi <3107> those hearing the Word of the God and keeping/preserving/fulassonteV <5442> (5723) it.

Reve 1:3 Happy/blessed/makarioV <3107> the one-reading, and the ones-hearing the Words of the Prophecy, and keepings/guardings/throunteV <5083> (5723) the in her having been written, for the time nigh

5442. phulasso foo-las'-so probably from 5443 through the idea of isolation; to watch, i.e. be on guard (literally of figuratively); by implication, to preserve, obey, avoid:--
5083. tereo tay-reh'-o from teros (a watch; perhaps akin to 2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from 5442,

NKJV) Luke 11:28 But He said, "More than that, blessed [are] those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

NKJV) Revelation 1:3 Blessed [is] he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time [is] near
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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ah, claiming "Popish" authority for you and your text -- ok.

I'm EO and we don't have a "Pope" in this regard.

well, I'm glad you're comfortable with the translation-bias of your text.

but as far as the Greek goes, I find it debased that some try to "Colonialize" another's language.
Hi Thekla. Did you get a chance to look over this thread I put up on the TAW board concerning that greek word used for "clement"? :wave:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7265052&page=4
The Greek word for Clement in Phil 4:3

Phili 4:3 Yea I am asking also thee together-yoke! genuine! be thou helping them who-any in the Well-Message together-complete to-me with also/and clement/klhmentoV <2815> and of the rests together-workers of me of whom the names in scroll of life.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Thanks, LLOJ :wave:
The best thing about that interlinear is that it parses the hebrew/greek words and if you want to look up where an EXACT form of a word is used elsewhere, just click on the hebrew/Koine greek word and it will show you where they are used.
[it uses the W-H Ms for the greek so you might want to look at the other 2 main Greek texts to compare as variances are plentiful between them.]

That is how I did my translation of Revelation, by looking up how each word is used in the rest of the NC. Thoughts?

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47504242#post47504242
Revelation Chapt 9 verse by verse
 
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Anglian

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Dear Beamishboy,

St. Elizabeth spoke with the authority of the Holy Spirit according to St. Luke. Your own Church has a translation of the Bible which has always used the word 'blessed'; because of your odd fixation with mothers and RCs you have a problem with all of this; you will get over it.

Hi Anglian, I never once said that our Lord disowned his own family

You said that He rebuked her and this, in a manner not specified, cancelled out St. Elizabeth's inspired comment. If you now admit it did not, we are still commanded to call St. Mary blessed. We do; you argue about it; which obeys the plain word of Scripture you are so fond of?

there is nothing special about a blessing.
Another novel Beamishism? Do look it up in the OED and you'll find that there is something special about giving someone a blessing.


have already said that the RC church gave a whole new meaning to that word and nowadays some of us have our judgement coloured every time that word is used.
That is your problem, and I would work on getting over it.


So, Mary was blessed because she was carrying Jesus; not because she had some inherent quality that makes her special.
This is another of your stock anti-Roman Catholic arguments; it makes no sense to me as an Orthodox Christian; we do not say she did. Again, your anti-Romanism warps your perspective.

That is why when Mary herself said that "all generations will call me blessed", she used a different word (as I have explained in a few posts above) which simply means "happy".

The example I have consistently used is the Spirit speaking through St. Elizabeth, so your quoting a Greek word with only one possible meaning (it must be the only Greek word in that category) is relevant only to your hang ups with mother figures.

Why happy? Because she bore Jesus!
A 13 year old boy might be expected not to understand how very silly, taken in the context, his words are here. St. Mary was a young virgin betrothed to an older man. She was going to be pregnant without the usual preliminaries (ask your parents); in the culture of her time she would be exposed to huge shame. We know that one of the charges made against the early Christians was that the mother of the Lord became pregnant by a Roman soldier out of wedlock. Indeed, we are told in Scripture that St. Joseph was minded to put her away quietly so as not to shame her, and only desisted when the angel of the Lord told him to. In short, far from necessarily being 'happy', she might well have asked for this 'cup' to pass her by because the burden she would be taking on was so great. But out of obedience to the Lord, she took it on. That does, actually, require a special sort of courage. You are too young to see this; one day you will see it, and I hope when it comes, you may have the good grace to be a little ashamed of your comments about St. Mary; the inherent quality she had was obedience.



I know RC theology says that because Mary was "blessed" she had no sin. That is incorrect.
Tell it to the RCs, my Church does not teach that, so do give it a rest.

But we still have sins!!! And we still need forgiveness from Jesus.
You've lost me; where did I, or anyone else say otherwise? This seems like yet another example of the way in which your obsession with Roman teaching seeps into everything you write.

Jesus who was already a full-grown adult decided to put a stop to this unnecessary and potentially dangerous sentimentality and
You've lost me again; where in Scripture does it say this was the Lord's motivation? Your insistence on knowing what the Lord was thinking worries me; it is a sign of that infallibility thing.

No!!! It's an individual thing.
And I said it wasn't exactly where?



I have already shown in another thread why the early Christians and the Apostles DID NOT venerate Mary. If they had, there would at least have been a passing mention of Mary in the epistles.
This is a non sequitur, as I have pointed out to you before. The epistles deal mainly with points of discipline and clarification, so there is no reason to accept your basic assumption here. They don't use the word 'Trinity' or explain the relationship of the Three Persons in it, either; nor do they list your 39 articles; yet all three subjects are dealt with as explanations of what the Scriptures mean.


But there is not a whisper of Mary's name in the epistles ....
Again, who said there was? This whole paragraph is irrelevant to a discussion with Orthodox Christians.

There is a consistent misunderstanding by Mary of Jesus' role and mission
As by the Apostles too. No one has alleged anything else. Look again at what you are riding - it is a hobby horse, not a charger.


The fullness of Jesus' Godhead and purpose and mission became clear to her.
It says this where in Scripture?

After that, we don't hear the slightest squeak from the apostles in any of the canonical writing of Mary
Not again, no one has said we did! But the Church which canonised those books did venerate St. Mary. Why accept its books but not its view of Mary?


It's perfectly ridiculous under these circumstances to conclude that Mary played an important role in the life of the apostles.
Had anyone so argued, it would have been. The only thing that is ridiculous is your labouring points no one has raised with you.

The Orthodox follow St. Luke's account of the Holy Spirit speaking through St. Elizabeth, and call her 'blessed'.

Do find out what the Orthodox hold regarding St. Mary before mounting your anti-Catholic hobby-horse. There's rather a good, simple introduction by a man called Rowan Williams, whom I believe you know, so if the book is too hard, just ask him. He venerates her, as the Orthodox do.

We respect the simple peasant girl who risked her reputation to bear the Life of the World in her womb, and whom the Spirit called 'blessed'; we respect the mother who stood by obedient to the will of God even as her son died upon the Cross and who uttered no reproach. We respect her, we call her 'blessed'; which of these things causes you a problem?

Peace,

Anglian





 
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