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Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

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Ramon96

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This is where you know not the scripture. For ever word spoken from God is Gods law.. Not just the 10 commandments.. Just as God said to Adam and Eve Do not eat of the fruit . Just like when God said be fruituful and mulitiply.. Just as when God said This is my beloved Son.. It is all Gods Law. Every word spoken is Gods Law. :)

But the context of the Scripture was regarding Moses Law [Moses Books] specifically. It was not speaking about the entire Bible, for it did not exist!
 
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Montalban

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I'll assume you mean me, Montalban
I told you "It has been said", or "Have you heard" doesn't support tradition - it doesn't count - when it refers to something that [/B]
was actually written and even widely known among illiterates, to have been written!
Just because you say it, doesn't make it so.

Where is it written an eye for an eye?

Nowhere. I read in scripture that scripture was referred to, to check if what the Apostles were saying was true. Nowhere is there an example of anyone referring to tradition to see if what the Apostles was saying was so.
What a strange challenge. The Gospels weren't even written when Paul et al were preaching. What else were they using?

Paul writes to people to hold to the traditions he has taught.
Ergo, Sola Scriptura has strong scriptural support,
You mean it has none of itself explicitly stating to hold to scripture, but if you make up circumstances to support it, you have circumstances that support it.
tradition as a reference to check truth[/COLOR] does not. Sure it says to remember, but that isn't an argument against Sola Scriptura, nor is it a recommendation of tradition as a reference for checking truth.[/B]
Given that Paul's telling them to keep to the tradition then of course it does. He's saying "keep to tradition".

You interpret him saying "Keep to the traditions taught you" as meaning "Don't rely on these traditions" You simply have to interpret the exact opposite of what it says.

Did Matthew teach differently from Mark? That is tradition. Even before the Bible came into being the teachings were the same.
 
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Montalban

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But the context of the Scriptures was regarding Moses Law specifically. It was not speaking about the entire Bible, for it did not exist!

A Catholic frined of mine here at work came up with an interesting thought.

Muhammed calls Christians "People of the Book" but we're "People of the fatih" so it's interesting that Protestants follow this same mistake - which is not of God
 
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Montalban

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Try a serious answer. (and I'm not Roman Catholic)
WHAT!? The Bereans were chopped liver? Is there a tradition that says not only did they search the scriptures, but they checked their tradition to see if the Apostles were fer real?


Scripture. It is written.

Bereans were checking the NT? Where does it say that they only relied upon Scripture? (see below with the Ethiopian)

Or were they acting like in Acts

Acts15:13 When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simon[a] has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16" 'After this I will return
and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'
18that have been known for ages.[c]

19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

Now note that the calling of Gentiles was not practiced by the Jews, except if the Gentile became a Jew through circumcision. (It's not actually written "Don't make it difficult to convert"). The Apostles got rid of a 'written' requirement, but they still called upon Gentiles as it was 'written'. Ultimately the Council at Jerusalem decided.

Also, I note you ignore my reference to the Ethiopian I made earlier, which sheds some light on the idea of reading the Bible. (It's in Acts, too) where he says how can he understand the Bible unless it's explained. The Bible itself was not sufficient, nor was his willingness to learn.
 
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Montalban

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Ramon96

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Your wrong and my quote is effective whether they are pertaining to the laws or any other, because all scripture is given by the inspiration of God, if we bible CHRISTIANS used small handful of epistles and a gospel it would still be sufficient unto salvation because it is our confirming device...

Romans 1 tells that even less than scripture is sufficient and yet you guys heap this man made stuff higher and higher...


20For (A)since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, (B)being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

21For even though they knew God, they did not [a]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became (C)futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22(D)Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and (E)exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man

That has nothing to do with anything! You ignore the context of that Scripture to prove Sola-Scriptura! I guess that what you must do since you cannot give any Scripture to prove Sola-Scriptura. That Scriptures was talking about the Law of Moses [Moses Books] so to imply Sola-Scriptura here, you would have to reject all the other books of the OT and the NT as well.

If we bible CHRISTIANS used small handful of epistles and a gospel it would still be sufficient unto salvation because it is our confirming device...

But we don't. The fact that you accept 27 Books in the NT is because it was the Church Authority in the 4th Century that declare it so. You reject the Gospel of Thomas or whatever because it is not included in your Bible and that is because the Church did not accept that book as Scripture. The fact that you use the words "Holy Trinity" or "Trinity" was because that was the language of the ECF, not because of Scriptures. The fact that you accept the Orthodox Definition of the Holy Trinity is because that definition was taught by the First Ecumenical Council, because no where in Scriptures do we find a clear definition of the Holy Trinity, so you have to rely on what the Church said in the 1st Ecumenical Council.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The sun's goin down.
I only have a few more minutes to torture insects with my magnifying glass...
I wanna see this statue lit up at night. :D

LLOJ Might put this up as my Avatar

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7266477
If there is no evidence for creation

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-99...g=2547-1_3-0-5

Flying Spaghetti Monster statue at Tennessee courthouse

FSM+Courthouse+1+066_270x404.jpg

Members of the Crossville, Tennessee chapter of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster sought and received approval to install a statue of the Flying Spaghetti Monster outside the city's courthouse.
 
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Montalban

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That has nothing to do with anything! You ignore the context of that Scripture to prove Sola-Scriptura! I guess that what you must do since you cannot give any Scripture to prove Sola-Scriptura. That Scriptures was talking about the Law of Moses [Moses Book] so to imply Sola-Scriptura here, you would have to reject all the other books of the OT and the NT as well.



But we don't. The fact that you accept 27 Books in the NT is because it was the Church Authority in the 4th Century that declare it so. You reject the Gospel of Thomas or whatever because it is not included in your Bible and that is because the Church did not accept that book as Scripture. The fact that you use the words "Holy Trinity" or "Trinity" was because that was the language of the ECF, not because of Scriptures. The fact that you accept the Orthodox Definition of the Holy Trinity is because that definition was taught by the First Ecumenical Council, because no where in Scriptures do we find a clear definition of the Holy Trinity, so you have to rely on what the Church said in the 1st Ecumenical Council.


RickOtto tries the example of the Bereans to suggest sola scriptura the problem with this is no where does Paul say "Do as they do", and what they're doing is not testing the NT against the OT, because the NT wasn't written.

Very likely they were testing what the Apostles were saying about the OT, by the OT... because the Apostles were also calling for people to give up on Jewish laws regarding circumcision, diet, Saturday worship, etc.
 
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Montalban

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WHY THE BEREANS REJECTED SOLA SCRIPTURA
By STEVE RAY

A prominent anti-Catholic organization out of Oregon, with Dave Hunt at the helm, publishes a monthly newsletter entitled The Berean Call. The title is taken from Acts 17, where Paul refers to the Bereans in Asia Minor as "noble-minded," and Hunt chose the title to promote his belief in sola scriptura.

Sola scriptura, or the "Bible only," is a Protestant doctrine invented in the fifteenth century. It declares the Bible is the sole source of revelation and the only and final judge in all matters of the Christian faith. Martin Luther developed it as a reaction to the historic teachings of the Catholic Church and of the Fathers of the first centuries. Luther rejected the authority of the Church and the apostolic tradition and so was left with sola scriptura—the Bible alone.

In reality, though, Hunt has turned the episode in Berea on its head, since the noble-minded Bereans actually condemn his sola scriptura position. This Bereans passage has been commandeered by Fundamentalists for too long, and it is time Catholics reclaim it. Many have been troubled by this text, and many explanations from a Catholic perspective have been mediocre at best. Not only can the text be explained easily by Catholics, but it is actually a strong argument against sola scriptura and a convincing defense of the teaching of the Catholic Church.

We are told that the Bereans were more noble-minded (open-minded, better disposed, fair)—but more noble-minded than whom? The Thessalonians! It is convenient for Fundamentalists to pull this passage out of context and force it to stand alone. That way their case seems convincing, but the context tells the real story. Before we look at the Bereans, let’s take a look at those they are compared to, the Thessalonians. What did the Thessalonians do that made them less noble-minded?

We find out in Acts 17:1–9: "Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. And Paul went in, as was his custom, and for three weeks he argued with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, ‘This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.’ And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women. But the Jews were jealous, and, taking some wicked fellows of the rabble, they gathered a crowd, set the city in an uproar, and attacked the house of Jason, seeking to bring them out to the people. And when they could not find them, they dragged Jason and some of the brethren before the city authorities, crying, ‘These men who have turned the world upside down have come here also, and Jason has received them, and they are all acting against the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus.’ And the people and the city authorities were disturbed when they heard this. And when they had taken security from Jason and the rest, they let them go."

The Thessalonians rejected Paul and his message, and, after denouncing him, they became jealous that others believed. They treated Paul with contempt and violence, throwing him ignominiously out of town. Why? "For three weeks he [Paul] reasoned with them from the Scriptures" in the synagogue, as was his custom. They did not revile Paul the first week or the second; rather, they listened and discussed. But ultimately they rejected what he had to say. They compared Paul’s message to the Old Testament and decided that Paul was wrong. We must remember that many were proclaiming a wide variety of new teachings, all supposedly based on the Scriptures and revelations from God. Heresies, cults, and sects were as numerous in the Roman Empire as they are today. The Jews in Thessalonica had a right to be skeptical.

Now let’s look at Luke’s comment about the noble-minded Bereans: "The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men" (Acts 17:10–12).

When Protestants use this passage as a proof text for the doctrine of sola scriptura, they should realize that those in question were not Christians; they were Hellenistic Jews. There was no doctrine of sola scriptura within Jewish communities, but the Scriptures were held as sacred. Although the Jews are frequently referred to as "the people of the book," in reality they had a strong oral tradition that accompanied their Scriptures, along with an authoritative teaching authority, as represented by the "seat of Moses" in the synagogues (Matt. 23:2). The Jews had no reason to accept Paul’s teaching as "divinely inspired," since they had just met him. When new teachings sprang up that claimed to be a development of Judaism, the rabbis researched to see if they could be verified from the Torah.

If one of the two groups could be tagged as believers in sola scriptura, who would it be, the Thessalonians or the Bereans? The Thessalonians, obviously. They, like the Bereans, examined the Scriptures with Paul in the synagogue, yet they rejected his teaching. They rejected the new teaching, deciding after three weeks of deliberation that Paul’s word contradicted the Torah. Their decision was not completely unjustified from their scriptural perspective. How could the Messiah of God be cursed by hanging on a tree like a common criminal, publicly displayed as one who bore the judgment of God? What kind of king and Messiah would that be? This seemed irreconcilable to them (see Simon J. Kistemaker, Acts [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 1990], 614).

When some of the Greeks and prominent citizens did accept Jesus as Messiah, the Jews became jealous—and rightfully so, from their perspective, since the new believers separated themselves from the synagogue and began meeting elsewhere, at Jason’s house. The Jews naturally considered themselves the authoritative interpreters of the Torah. Who were the Gentiles to interpret Scripture and decide important theological issues or accept additional revelation? They were the "dogs," not the chosen custodians of the oracles of God (see William Barclay, The Acts of the Apostles [Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: Westminster Press, 1976], 128).

We can see, then, that if anyone could be classified as adherents to sola scriptura it was the Thessalonian Jews. They reasoned from the Scriptures alone and concluded that Paul’s new teaching was "unbiblical."

The Bereans, on the other hand, were not adherents of sola scriptura, for they were willing to accept Paul’s new oral teaching as the word of God (as Paul claimed his oral teaching was; see 1 Thess. 2:13). The Bereans, before accepting the oral word of God from Paul, a tradition as even Paul himself refers to it (see 2 Thess. 2:15), examined the Scriptures to see if these things were so. They were noble-minded precisely because they "received the word with all eagerness." Were the Bereans commended primarily for searching the Scriptures? No. Their open-minded willingness to listen was the primary reason they are referred to as noble-minded—not that they searched the Scriptures. A perusal of grammars and commentaries makes it clear that they were "noble-minded" not for studying Scripture, but for treating Paul more civilly than did the Thessalonians—with an open mind and generous courtesy (see I. Howard Marshall, "The Acts of the Apostles" in the Tyndale New Testament Commentaries [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1981], 5:280).

The Bereans searched the Torah no less than the Thessalonians, yet they were eager to accept words of God from the mouth of Paul, in addition to what they already held to be Scripture, that is, the Law and the Prophets. Even if one claims that Paul preached the gospel and not a "tradition," it is clear that the Bereans were accepting new revelation that was not contained in their Scriptures. These Berean Jews accepted oral teaching, the tradition of the apostles, as equal to Scripture, in addition to, and as an "extension" of, the Torah. This is further illustrated by the Christian community’s reception of Paul’s epistles as divinely inspired Scripture (see 2 Peter 3:16; here Peter seems to acknowledges Paul’s writings as equal to the "other Scriptures," which can be presumed to refer to the Old Testament).

From the perspective of anti-Catholics, the Thessalonians would have been more noble-minded, for they loyally stuck to their canon of Scripture alone and rejected any additional binding authority (spoken or written) from the mouth of an apostle. In fact, at the Council of Jamnia, around A.D. 90, the Jews determined that anything written after Ezra was not infallible Scripture; they specifically mentioned the Gospels of Christ in order to reject them.

Why did the Bereans search the Scriptures? Because they were the sole source of revelation and authority? No, but to see if Paul was in line with what they already knew—to confirm additional revelation. They would not submit blindly to his apostolic teaching and oral tradition, but, once they accepted the credibility of Paul’s teaching as the oral word of God, they put it on a par with Scripture and recognized its binding authority. After that, like the converts who believed in Thessalonica, they espoused apostolic Tradition and the Old Testament equally as God’s word (see 2 Thess. 2:15, 3:16). Therefore they accepted apostolic authority, which means that the determinations of Peter in the first Church council, reported in Acts 15, would have been binding on these new Gentile converts.

By contrast, the Jews of Thessalonica would have condemned Peter’s biblical exegesis at the Council of Jerusalem. They would have scoffed at the Church’s having authority over them—the Torah was all they needed. Those who held to sola scriptura rejected Paul because he claimed to be the voice of "additional revelation."

Luke makes it plain that those who were willing to accept apostolic Tradition as binding were more noble-minded. The Bereans passage, therefore, is hardly a proof text for those who espouse sola scriptura. This text proves too much for Fundamentalists. Anti-Catholics love to associate themselves with the Bereans, but the example of the Bereans actually condemns their exegesis. Luke’s praise of the Bereans cannot be applied to Fundamentalist Protestants, who resemble rather the Thessalonians, who held to sola scriptura and rejected the oral word of God contained in Tradition and in the teaching authority of the Church.

To be consistent with his novel theology of sola scriptura, Dave Hunt ought to rename his monthly newsletter. Let me suggest a new title: The Thessalonian Call.

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9703fea3.asp
 
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Ramon96

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You're totaly trippin'.
We can check what scriptures we aren't sure are true from what scriptures we know are true., just like the Bereans checked what the apostles were saying by referring to scripture.

How do you come to the conclusion that the veracity of the 27 books was comprehended without checking them against the OT? Tradition?

But where in the Holy Bible does it give us a clear list of Canon books? When the Church decided upon the canon of the NT, they did not go to the OT to see if those specific books were true, because heck we might have more than 27 Books! And besides, there is no list in the OT to "verified" with. One of the methods they use was whether or not the book had any Apostolic origin. The Church was guided by the Holy Spirit to declare which books were inspired. You accept 27 books in the NT ONLY because the Church declare that to be so. How do you know that 2 Peter is Scripture? By the Church, that's how.

So:

A) You accept the fact that the NT has 27 Books not because it can be verify using the OT, but the Church declare that to be so. You can not verify any canon list using the OT, since the OT does not give any list of such. Your Bible has 27 Books because that was list given by the Church, and after the 4th Century, that became the official list of books to include in the NT, and now every Bible on the shelf has 27 books in the NT. That's life Rick........live with it.

B) If, as you suppose, that we can just look at the OT and see which "book" belong in the NT [based upon what the OT say], that will mean that the NT should have more book , since many early books were accepted as Scriptures and some of them does not contradict the OT, such as the Didache, but this book as well has the rest that was accepted as Scriptures by some in the first 300 years of Church History, did not made it in the Canon of the Holy Bible in the 4th Century. Yea, we can just read the Didache, and say "My my my, this is not Scripture" [sarcasm]. The fact is this: You can read the Didache but you will be unable to say "After reviewing the OT, this book is not Scripture". But it is not Scripture only because the Church in the 4th century said so, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not because it was verified as such by the OT. So much for your theory.............

Blessings,
Ramon
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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RickOtto tries the example of the Bereans to suggest sola scriptura the problem with this is no where does Paul say "Do as they do", and what they're doing is not testing the NT against the OT, because the NT wasn't written.

Very likely they were testing what the Apostles were saying about the OT, by the OT... because the Apostles were also calling for people to give up on Jewish laws regarding circumcision, diet, Saturday worship, etc.
Yeah. The poor Jews are under the whole Law until their new heaven and land come. :sorry:

Matthew 5:18 "For amen I am saying to ye, till ever may-be-passing-away the Heaven and the Land, iota one or one horn not no may-be-passing-away from the Law, till ever all shall-be-becoming" [Revelation 21:1,6]

Revelation 21:1 And I perceived a-Heaven, New, and a-Land, New, for the first heaven and the first land pass-away......
6 And He said to me:" it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754). . [Matthew 5:18]
 
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Ramon96

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RickOtto tries the example of the Bereans to suggest sola scriptura the problem with this is no where does Paul say "Do as they do", and what they're doing is not testing the NT against the OT, because the NT wasn't written.

Very likely they were testing what the Apostles were saying about the OT, by the OT... because the Apostles were also calling for people to give up on Jewish laws regarding circumcision, diet, Saturday worship, etc.

Yes. Look, The Holy Apostles was preaching to them what the OT said about Christ. So they were simply searching the OT to see what the Holy Apostles said about the OT were true. This remind of Luke 24:27 "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself"

Jesus Christ simply told these two men all the OT Scriptures that concern him. Now what did the Holy Apostles do? The same. They preached to them [and reveal] all the mysteries of the OT that concern Christ, the Messiah. He gave them OT Scriptures proving such as such and the Bereans simply went to the OT to find out whether or not those Scriptures were to be found in the OT. He was explaining to the Jews how the Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah were fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth. They accepted that "Jesus" was the Messiah and the "One". They accepted the Holy Apostles interpretations of the texts unlike the Thessalonians, and accepted further revelations. What you said, "the Apostles were also calling for people to give up on Jewish laws regarding circumcision, diet, Saturday worship, etc" is very important. Imagine, the newly Gentile Christians going to the OT to check if these were written down in the OT. These cannot be verified by the OT, but is part of the Apostolic Tradition.

In Acts 17, both Bereans and Thessalonians believed in the authority of Scripture. The difference between the two was that the Thessalonians rejected apostolic teachings, while the Bereans accepted them.

There is no reason to think that the Berean Jews [not Christians yet, and the Jews did not accept "Sola-Scriptura"; it is silly to assume that these Jews were Sola-Scripturas] were doing anything more than merely verifying that St. Paul&#8217;s quotations from their Sacred Scriptures were genuine and accurate. As you can see, our Protestant friends has use this Scripture incorrectly. They use it to teach Sola-Scriptura. But one thing is certain: these words in Acts 17 imply no such thing.

Blessings,
Ramon
 
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jamescarvin

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:wave:


Revelation is a tough nut to crack. Good luck finding something from the 1st 4 centuries and let me know what you find.

I intend to do some study of the Apocolypse as soon as I finish 2 Corinthians. Maybe next week. In which case I hope to open a theological thread on Revelations based on what I am studying. I hope to see you around. I also need to find the thread you started where you were translating it.

You will probably find this disappointing, but the trend among the early fathers prior to the 4th Century with respect to the book of Revelation was to take it literally, rather than allegorically and to believe that there would be a coming 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.

This is found in the orthodox teaching of Papias, Baranabas, Justin, Ireneaus, Ephraim, Hyppolitus and Lactantius. Heretical versions of it are found in Montanism, Ebionism and Apollinarianism. In the fourth century when all these heresies were renounced the term "chilliasm" was popularized and called heresy so that the literal approach was abandoned in favor of the allegorical.

It is easy to see how this would have happened. For one thing it was threatening to the Caesars to teach that a new King was going to come and have his kingdom on earth. A certain safety measure existed in the claim that Christ's kingdom was "not of this world." The shift in thinking occurred just about precisely at the time when Constantine pronounced his Edict of Milan.

This is not to say that the church struck some sort of deal. What I think happened is they became less anxious for a newer better world. They could live an interior life with King Jesus in their heart, winning their spiritual warfare and get plenty out of the kingdom message without having to hope that the world would turn into a genuine theocracy ruled by a returning Jesus, rather than Caesar. The devil is defeated by faith.

Much of the liturgical language is taken from the Book of Revelation. Some Catholics have suggested this is because the Book is simply a description of the Liturgy. There may be some truth to this but it is a matter of speculation as to what came first - the liturgy or the prophecy. Both seem to have come from John, the Theologian, moved by the Spirit. So to me that question doesn't matter. But it bugs me to hear it suggested that the prophecy is nothing more than a recounting of the liturgy, as if the liturgy itself had no meaning or significance?

Parts of Revelation come from the Old Testament, which was even prior to the early fathers. Gog and Magog are mentioned near the end as rising up to "deceive the nations and even the elect if it were possible" after the 1000 reign, and refers back to Ezekiel 38-39, which describes Israel being taken captive. It is a scene reminiscent of Armageddon, which appears to take place prior to the thousand years. In both cases, birds eat the flesh of the defeated enemy. There is the beast with ten heads. There are the two witnesses. There are the four living creatures. All of these come from Old Testament imagery which could well have been a part of the liturgy prior to John's revelation, but that would be pure speculation.

The Pre 4th Century fathers made reference to various passages in Revelation, showing they were familiar with the Book as part of their Christian consciousness and framework, but none of it amounts to a commentary so much as usage in passing. All use of it seems literal yet spiritual. I don't think "allegorical" is the word for it.


See the incomplete list below, which just happens to be what I've scratched into my Bible's margins …

Papias Fragment - (Rev 20:2-4)

Clement 34 - (Rev. 22:12)

Barnabas 15 - (Rev. 20:2-4)

Magnetus 12 - (Rev. 5:8; 19:7)

Justin to Trypho 81 - (Rev. 20:2-4)

Ireneaus
AH I 22:4 -(Rev. 1:5)
AH I 26:3 - (Rev. 2:6)
AH II:31:3 - (Rev. 12:4, 14)
AH III 11:8 - (Rev. 4:7)
AH III 23:7 - (Rev. 20:2)
AH IV 9:2 - (Rev. 19:11)
AH IV 17:6 - (Rev. 5:8), Fragment 37 also refers to this
AH IV 18:6 - (Rev:11:19)
AH IV 20:4 - (Rev. 5:6)
AH IV 20:11 - (Rev. 1:17)
AH IV 20:2 - (Rev. 3:7) - also 4:88
AH IV 21:3 - (Rev. 6:2)
AH IV 30:4 - (Rev. 15:5)
AH IV 50:4 - (Rev. 16:1)
AH V 10:2 - (Rev. 2:17)
AH V 26:1 - (Rev. 17:12)
AH V 28:2 - (Rev. 13:11, 13; 19:20)
AH V 30:1- (Rev. 22:19)
AH V 30:4 - (Rev. 17:8)
AH V 34:2 - (Rev. 20:6)
AH V 35:2 - (Rev. 20:11,15; 21:1,6)


Ignatius Ep. to Smyrna 3 -(Rev. 1:7)

Lactantius - Divine Institutes 7:26 - (Rev. 20:2-4).

Lactantius is perhaps most specific as to Gog/Magog. He does not connect this with the pre-millennial Armageddon, but as a separate Post-Millennial battle, which is my own opinion first because the Bible reads that way naturally and secondly because we have no evidence of any Pre-4th Century fathers reading it any other way. The ECFs taught a millennium and I believe it. Later fathers abandoned the earlier fathers on this.

The first Christian we have any record of opposing the doctrine of the millennium was Origen, who said it appealed to a "simpler sort of Christian."

Jerome, who was not a chiliast himself, adds to the list of those who believed in the literal millennial reign above, Martin, Tertullian, Victorinus, Nepos, and Sulpicious-Severus. While Justin admits that in his own day there were some, though not any right minded, who did not accept the literal interpretation for the thousand years.

As to right mindedness, Ireneaus goes to great length in Against Heresies V 34-35 to show why the millennium must be taken literally and not allegorically.

Hyppolitus takes a clearly literal interpretation in his Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, from which it can be inferred that he would have held to a literal millennium. This is a very detailed recounting and inter-relating of the Old and New Testament Prophecies concerning the end times. You would just about think you were reading John Darby. And even as a Roman Bishop he did not stop identifying Rome with Mystery Babylon as he considered the beasts crowns and horns.

But then, Hyppolitus did not yet see a direct alignment between the church and the state. This had not yet occurred. His vision of Roman Supremacy was not what Roman Catholics of today see.

There are others, but this should be a pretty good start. It is nothing like you would expect if you interviewed a Catholic priest today. They are all a-millennialists, but then so was Luther and so are all the major Protestant denominations. Amillenniallism is a carry-over from Post-Constantininian Christianity. Reading the early fathers' teaching on the millennium and the Book of Revelation totally flies in the face of the idea that the Tradition never changed.

Hope that helps.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Lactantius is perhaps most specific as to Gog/Magog. He does not connect this with the pre-millennial Armageddon, but as a separate Post-Millennial battle, which is my own opinion first because the Bible reads that way naturally and secondly because we have no evidence of any Pre-4th Century fathers reading it any other way. The ECFs taught a millennium and I believe it. Later fathers abandoned the earlier fathers on this.
Greetings and thanks for that informative post!!!
My view is armegeddon/gog-magog are one and the same event, but then I am Solo Scriptura and study the Greek translations, so I am allowed to believe that. :D

[you must spread some reputation around before giving it to jamescarvin again!]

2 Peter 3:12 toward-hoping for and hastening the parousian <3952> the of the GOD, Day, thru which heavens being on fire shall be being dissolved and elements burning being melted;

Reve 16:14 For they are spirits of demons doing signs which is going-out/ekporeuesqai <1607> (5738) on the kings of the land, and the being-homed, whole, to-be-together-assembling/sunagagein <4863> (5629) them into the battle of the Day, that the Great of the God the Almighty.

Reve 20:8 and he shall be coming out/exeleusetai <1831> (5695) to deceive the nations, the in the four corners of-the land, the Gog and the Magog, to-be-together-assembling/sunagagein <4863> (5629) them into the battle.................
 
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Rick Otto

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quote=Ramon96;But where in the Holy Bible does it give us a clear list of Canon books?
That's rich. You're jokin', right? Of course it's right next to where your church is listed as the one true.
When the Church decided upon the canon of the NT, they did not go to the OT to see if those specific books were true,
Yes they did.

because heck we might have more than 27 Books!
So what if we did? Where in tradition is the 37 books of the NT listed? Huh?
And besides, there is no list in the OT to "verified" with!.
The Bereans weren't checkin' lists, they were checkin' scriptures to verify what were only new oral traditions at that point in time. Notice they did NOT check oral traditions!
From whence this fixation with lists? I thought the discussion was about truths, not lists.

One of the methods they use was whether or not the book had any Apostolic origin.
To this day that is arguable about some of them. How doyou sleep at night?(lol)
The Church was guided by the Holy Spirit
Yeah, excuse me, but I've heard that as well as some very interesting definitions of "The Church".
to declare which books were inspired. You accept 27 books in the NT ONLY because the Church declare that to be so.
Do I? Do you know this for a fact? Did tradition tell you that or are you psychic?
How do you know that 2 Peter is Scripture? By the Church, that's how.
I judge a book by it's content, not it's reviews.

So:

A) You accept the fact that the NT has 27 Books not because it can be verify using the OT, but the Church declare that to be so.
Where in tradition does it say the council ignored the OT in judging what belonged in the NT?

You can not verify any canon list using the OT, since the OT does not give any list of such.
I verify truths, not lists.
Mine is a religion of truths, not lists.
Your Bible has 27 Books because that was list given by the Church, and after the 4th Century, that became the official list of books to include in the NT, and now every Bible on the shelf has 27 books in the NT. That's life Rick........live with it.
I live with scripture. You can live with whatever you choose as far as I'm concerned.

B) If, as you suppose, that we can just look at the OT and see which "book" belong in the NT [based upon what the OT say], that will mean that the NT should have more book , since many early books were accepted as Scriptures and some of them does not contradict the OT, such as the Didache, but this book as well has the rest that was accepted as Scriptures by some in the first 300 years of Church History, did not made it in the Canon of the Holy Bible in the 4th Century. Yea, we can just read the Didache, and say "My my my, this is not Scripture" [sarcasm]. The fact is this: You can read the Didache but you will be unable to say "After reviewing the OT, this book is not Scripture". But it is not Scripture only because the Church in the 4th century said so, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not because it was verified as such by the OT.

But the Holy Spirit had a reason for saying that.
Do you know what it is?
More Blessings,:cool:Otto[/quote]
 
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Anglian

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Dear Rick,

Ya'd better get back to torturing insects.
That's rich. You're jokin', right? Of course it's right next to where your church is listed as the one true.Yes, because the Church decided on that canon between the 2nd and 4th centuries.


Yes they did.
You'll have to demonstrate that. If you are arguing that the Church established the canon by reference to the OT, you are saying something no scholar I have read (including Metzger and Ehrman) have said. Apostolicity, orthodoxy of teaching and catholicity of acceptance were the main criteria for St. Athanasius in AD 367, as they had been at Nicaea. Of course, if you've had another revelation, we'll just have to agree to disagree.


So what if we did? Where in tradition is the 37 books of the NT listed? Huh?
Do you have 10 more than us? In St. Athanasius's festal letter, 367 AD, and at many councils thereafter.

The Bereans weren't checkin' lists, they were checkin' scriptures to verify what were only new oral traditions at that point in time. Notice they did NOT check oral traditions!
Re read what Monstalban quoted. The Bereans checked the written tradition of the Jewish Scriptures, but believed the oral testimony of St. Paul. The Berean story is one you and Simon are going to have to give up - your misinterpretation comes from ignoring the fact that Paul's main method of evangelism was by word of mouth. If the Bereans had believed only what the Jewish Scriptures said literally, they too would have rejected Paul.
From whence this fixation with lists? I thought the discussion was about truths, not lists.
Only the Scriptures, sir, only the Scriptures. We are very interested in the list of the NT canon for the same reason as you.


To this day that is arguable about some of them. How doyou sleep at night?(lol)
Because through the four pillars of Holy Tradition our Church retains the Truth it received from the lips of Christ Himself; how do you manage with all these 'arguable' things you mention?

Yeah, excuse me, but I've heard that as well as some very interesting definitions of "The Church".
Heard, but not received. The most 'interesting' definitions I've heard are from those who think they are, in themselves, a Church.

Do I? Do you know this for a fact? Did tradition tell you that or are you psychic?
Rick, Holy Tradition does tell us, so do the works of historians. Take a good read of Robert Bauckham's Jesus and the Eyewitnesses (2006) for a really good account of why we can rely on the Gospels, and any number of books on the creation of the canon. They all confirm what the Church has always taught - and what Protestant 'form critics' and others tried to deny.


I judge a book by it's content, not it's reviews.
But you only know what the content should be because of the authority of a Church you reject.


Where in tradition does it say the council ignored the OT in judging what belonged in the NT?
Nowhere does it say that they checked it off against the OT - how would that have worked then? The early Christians used the OT to show how it prefigured the coming of Christ, not to say whether the third epistle of John was or was not Scripture. That revelation you've had isn't working Rick. We read history and theology as well as Holy Tradition. What is very interesting about recent scholarship is how it comes closer and closer to what the Church has always taught.

The OP asked about the ECFs. The ECFs were part of the tradition out of which the text of the NT was recognised and taught with authority; they are not equal with Scripture; the Councils authorised the canon; but they are not equal with Scripture; the Liturgy of the Church preserves a public witness to the teaching of the Scriptures, but they are not equal with Scripture; but since Scripture does not intepret itself, the ECFs, the Councils and the Liturgy all provide ways of ensuring that the interpretation made of the Scriptures is orthodox and catholic.

You guys have some private revelation thing going on, which is fair enough, but we have explained how the Church has been working these things since the beginning.

Peace,

Anglian
 
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Ramon96

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That's rich. You're jokin', right? Of course it's right next to where your church is listed as the one true.

You didn't answer the question. I can see why.

Yes they did.

No they did not, for the same reasons I listed above. If that was true, then why isn't the book of Didache part of Scriptures? If your theory is true, there is no reason why the Didache shouldn't be included in the Bible as verification with the OT will only prove the inspiration of the book of Didache. Perhaps it will be good if you can provide a reliable citation that the Church did in fact based the NT Canon on what the OT said. Or did the Holy Spirit told you that? Do Scholars/Historians agree with you on this?


So what if we did? Where in tradition is the 37 books of the NT listed? Huh?

Yea, so what, but Christians have 27 books in there NT Canon. You right, no where in tradition are 37 books listed as the NT Canon, since Christians only accept 27 books, which was in fact part of Holy Tradition. Perhaps you have 37 books in the NT, but we don't.

The Bereans weren't checkin' lists, they were checkin' scriptures to verify what were only new oral traditions at that point in time. Notice they did NOT check oral traditions!
From whence this fixation with lists? I thought the discussion was about truths, not lists.

I [and others] have explain the Bereans story, so get over this Scripture that you took of context.


Do I? Do you know this for a fact? Did tradition tell you that or are you psychic?
I judge a book by it's content, not it's reviews.

So please tell me why you accept only 27 Books in the NT [I am assuming that you accept 27 books in the NT, let me know if you do not]. Is it not because your Bible has 27 books in the NT to begin with? So what you telling me is that when you picked up your Bible for the first time, you judge each book you found in the NT to make sure it was inspired by verifying them with the OT? Or was it because the Holy Spirit told you so? Or perhaps you accept 37 books as you mention above? But why?


Where in tradition does it say the council ignored the OT in judging what belonged in the NT?

Holy Tradition does not say the Councils verify each book with references of the OT. That something you would have to prove.

But the Holy Spirit had a reason for saying that.

That is besides the point. Your fallacy theory that one can be sure which book in the NT is true by verifying it with the OT doesn't work well with I said above- The fact is this: You can read the Didache but you will be unable to say "After reviewing the OT, this book is not Scripture". But it is not Scripture only because the Church in the 4th century said so, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not because it was verified as such by the OT. Your theory has gone out the window, sorry!

Blessings,
Ramon
 
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beamishboy

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but since Scripture does not intepret itself, the ECFs, the Councils and the Liturgy all provide ways of ensuring that the interpretation made of the Scriptures is orthodox and catholic.


Hi Anglian,

Are there differences between Roman Catholic interpretation and Orthodox, however small they may be? Presumably, there must be. Are there differences in Oral Tradition between RC and Orthodox churches? Again, presumably, there must be or your practices would be the same.

In your opinion, which interpretation is correct?
Orthodox or Roman Catholic?

I ask the above questions because you frequently post your comments as if there is no difference between your church and the RC church. You write as if all Orthodox churches practise the same thing as do RCs. You write as if your church is at war only with Protestants and the Great Schism is nothing more than a minor misunderstanding and you are happy to accept that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son.
 
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But the context of the Scripture was regarding Moses Law [Moses Books] specifically. It was not speaking about the entire Bible, for it did not exist!
Maybe not on Paper it didn't.. But it existed before the foundation of the world. For Gods word will never pass away and is what holds the universe together. :) The world was created by Gods word. Nothing not nothing was made without it. So as the Apostles wrote it became binding just as the OT is binding.. It is Gods word written for all to see read and adhere to. Gods word will judge the world..
 
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