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Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

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Montalban

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we have answered you the fact is that sola scriptura is not as you reprent it to be.

You haven't answered. You have a habit of claiming such when you answer something not asked. I'm not sure if it's a comprehension thing with you. You've done this before. When I asked you where it says to rely only on scripture you quote where Scripture is God's word NOT where it is ALL of God's word. But you just go on as if you've answered.

Scripture is sufficient. Meaning that we do not need to go outside of scripture and in fact we should not go beyond scripture for things pertaining to faith.. Not all things were written down but what has been written down is sufficient to make us complete in Christ. When the Perfect comes we know all we need to know in all things. As of now all we need now is written in the scriptures and anything that goes in contadiction to the written we take the written in authority over tradition because it is the written that is binding.

Perhaps you have difficulty with English, because you've said exactly what we've said sola scriptura is; that you rely on scripture alone. If scripture alone is sufficient it should itself say where it is sufficient.

If it doesn’t then you're relying on something OTHER THAN scripture to say rely ONLY ON scripture.
 
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Montalban

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I think you and Rick should admit that you followTradition too. ;)

Sola Scriptura seems to have become anything but "scripture alone". :wave:

Indeed, they're suggesting that they rely on something other than scripture to say that they should rely only on scripture!

Like SimontheZealot misquoting ECFs in an effort to show why we should rely on Scripture - to have an 'authority' outside scripture say "rely on scripture only"

They're very confused.
 
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Montalban

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So when the Church profess that there are 27 Books in the NT, where is that in Scriptures? Where does Scripture give a Canon List of books to be accepted as Scriptures?

The fact is that no Scripture teach Sola-Scriptura. The Early Christians follow what the Apostles taught them either through written form or unwritten form (2 Thes 2:15).

Where is Scripture does it state that everything must be verify from the Holy Bible?

Blessings,
Ramon

Obviously according to Rick Otto, the fact that there are 27 books, it is not 'true', because this fact was comprehended from outside scripture, but we can discern 'truth' from within those 27 books that we don't know are true

:confused:
 
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Montalban

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macarthur breaks this down well...

no one—even the most impassioned champion of sola Scriptura—would deny that Paul had taught the Thessalonians many things by word of mouth. No one would deny that the teaching of an apostle carried absolute authority. The point of debate between Catholics and Protestants is whether that teaching was infallibly preserved by word of mouth.

This has already been dealt with when someone raised the subject of the Trinity and how although 'based' in the NT the actual construct of the Trinity is known from Ecumenical Council - and I mentioned how 'opposing' ideas on the Trinity were also equally based on Scripture.

I added that when Councils came to decisions they said that they based their decision on what was always TAUGHT

But you ignored that... hence you raise it again.
 
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Montalban

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This is where you know not the scripture. For ever word spoken from God is Gods law.. Not just the 10 commandments.. Just as God said to Adam and Eve Do not eat of the fruit . Just like when God said be fruituful and mulitiply.. Just as when God said This is my beloved Son.. It is all Gods Law. Every word spoken is Gods Law. :)

Do you pluck our your eye? Where's it written "This is only a metaphor" or "This is literal"?
 
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Montalban

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Hi. So when a prophecy is mentioned concerning ALL that is written, what does that generally mean? Do we have to go searching all the books and writings that have ever been written to know what is being fulfilled that was Written? Just curious.

Luke 21:22 That days of vengeance/out-justing these are, of the to be filled all the having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772).

Revelation 1:3 Blessed the one reading/anaginwskwn <314> (5723), and the ones hearing, the Words of the Prophecy, and keepings in it/her having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772), for the Time Is-Near/egguV <1451>.

Paul also mentions how God's law is 'written on men's hearts' (Romans 2:15). Written doesn't always mean in a book
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Do you pluck our your eye? Where's it written "This is only a metaphor" or "This is literal"?
How come it has to be the right eye?

Interesting that the same wording is used in John 11:50.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 5:29 If yet the eye of thee, the right, is offending thee, be wrenching out! it, and be casting from thee: for it be expedient for thee that should be perishing one of the members of thee and no whole the body of thee may be being cast into gehenna.

John 11:50 Neither are thou reasoning it being expedient to ye that one man may be dying over the people and no whole the nation should be perishing
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Scripture should show this.
I am sure it does. What did "right" normally symbolize in the Bible. The last time it is used is in Reve 13:16

#1188 used 54 times.

Reve 13:16 And it is making all the small ones and the great ones and the rich ones and the poor ones and the free ones and the slaves that they may be giving to them image on of the hand of them, of the right, or on the forehead of them.
 
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Hentenza

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I don't think it was the Holy Spirit
How would you know?;)


Perhaps you need to study English. I said to the extent shown, you are alike. And you are... you both profess a 'special knowledge' of the Scriptures without any rhyme or reason for why you do.

I could say "Gnostics and Christians are alike, to the extent that they both believe in Christ" and this isn't to say "Gnostics are the same as Chrisitans".

Let me ask you, do you believe that only the EO can be saved? Do you believe that only the EO are the church of Christ? Be careful, as you should know pride is a sin.
 
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Rick Otto

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macarthur breaks this down well...

no one—even the most impassioned champion of sola Scriptura—would deny that Paul had taught the Thessalonians many things by word of mouth. No one would deny that the teaching of an apostle carried absolute authority. The point of debate between Catholics and Protestants is whether that teaching was infallibly preserved by word of mouth.
So the mere reference to truth received firsthand from Paul himself is again, irrelevant as support for the Catholic position.

Nothing here suggests that the tradition Paul delivered to the Thessalonians is infallibly preserved for us anywhere except in Scripture itself.
In fact, the real thrust of what Paul is writing here is antithetical to the spirit of Roman Catholic tradition. Paul is not encouraging the Thessalonians to receive some tradition that had been delivered to them via second- or third-hand reports.
On the contrary, he was ordering them to receive as infallible truth only what they had heard directly from his own lips.
Paul was very concerned to correct the Thessalonians' tendency to be led astray by false epistles and spurious tradition. From the very beginning the Thessalonians had not responded to the gospel message as nobly as the Bereans, who "received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so" (Acts 17:11).

It is highly significant that the Bereans are explicitly commended for examining the apostolic message in light of Scripture. They had the priority right: Scripture is the supreme rule of faith, by which everything else is to be tested. Unsure of whether they could trust the apostolic message—which, by the way, was as inspired and infallible and true as Scripture itself—the Bereans erased all their doubt by double-checking the message against Scripture. Yet Roman Catholics are forbidden by their Church to take such an approach! They are told that the Church through her bishops dispenses the only true and infallible understanding of Scripture. Therefore it is pointless to test the Catholic Church's message by Scripture; for if there appears to be a conflict—and make no mistake, there are many—Rome says her traditions carry more weight that her critics' interpretation of Scripture.

What the apostle was telling the Thessalonians was nothing like what Rome tells faithful Catholics. Paul was urging the Thessalonians to test all truth-claims by Scripture, and by the words they had heard personally from his own lips. And since the only words of the apostles that are infallibly preserved for us are found in Scripture, that means that we, like the Bereans, must compare everything with Scripture to see whether it is so.
Roman Catholic apologists protest that only a fraction of Paul's messages to the Thessalonians are preserved in the two brief epistles Paul wrote to that church. True, but may not we assume that what he taught the Thessalonians were the very truths that are found in generous measure throughout all his epistles—justification by faith, the true gospel of grace, the sovereignty of God, the Lordship of Christ, and a host of other truths? The New Testament gives us a full-orbed Christian theology. Who can prove that anything essential is omitted? On the contrary, we are assured that Scripture is sufficient for salvation and spiritual life (2 Tim 3:15-17). Where does Scripture ever suggest that there are unwritten truths that are necessary for our spiritual well-being? One thing is certain: these words in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 imply no such thing.
-A well spoken dude, to be sure. Thanks for dat!.

Signs of ring rustiness here, but I can see you're just limbering up.
:blush:
He was referring to the authority of the written word of God. OT info prefigures NT info. It isn't like the OT is about The Cat In The Hat & the NT is about Sam I Am.
(And no, I'm not suggesting Sam I Am is a messiah figure, lol)

Yes, but Our Lord didn't drop off a book, He founded a Church which, guided by the Holy Spirit, discerned what was and was not Scripture for the NT.
But the Bereans didn't have the NT. They verified what eventualy became the NT by verifying it thru its spiritual continuity with the OT demonstrating that scripture validates itself, something the Church cannot do.




Actualy the totality of it determines what the canon should be.
I fear not. What is the 'totality of it'?
Look at that. You're ready to object without even knowing what it is you're objecting to... must be my accent.
All of it. I speaketh not in nor of, mysteries.

You only know what the totality of the NT is because the early Church decided it for you.
But that isn't what I'm contesting & it isn't critical to the defense of Sola Scriptura. The OT was enough for the Bereans to see that what The Apostles was saying wasn't Camel dung. Sola Scriptura doesn't rely on the NT canon for veracity. In fact, it was used in scripture to verify the NT info as it was being delivered. Stop getting confused about that.
It did not err here - as elsewhere.
I'm not arguing that it did!
More importantly, THE BEREANS DID NOT ERR because they used Sola Scriptura on what the Apostles were orating to them.
Our Holy Tradition includes both the Bible and those who helped elucidate both its text and its meaning; I recommend it to all Christians.
Of course you do. I'm sure you make your bishop proud.:cool:

See how traditions get started?
Yes, it is all there in Holy Scripture,[/QUOTE]
OILA! EUREKA! You are ready for Sola Scriptura...
with Christ founding His Church and the Apostles teaching His traditions rather than the Traditions of men. I missed the reference to Our Lord telling people to ignore His oral tradition and rely only on the written one; St. Paul seems to have held a different view too.
No need for Christ to say that. Did a Protestant say that? I didn't think so. Where did you come up with that? Not even Protestants ignore tradition. They just check it daily against scripture to see if what is being said is so. Sound familiar?
Christ was fond of saying "It is written".
I missed where Jesus told the Isrealites their traditions made the scriptures come alive. Did that sound like polemical rhetoric? Sorry. It must be the company I've been keeping.;)

Will most Christians go to heaven?
Not having that infallibility thing some of you chaps have, I've no idea. I'm happy to leave it to the Only Just Judge - and even if I wasn't, that's the way it's going to be. Unless some of you guys tell Him where He's going wrong, of course.
Am I to believe Tradition doesn't tell you that?;):D
 
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You haven't answered. You have a habit of claiming such when you answer something not asked. I'm not sure if it's a comprehension thing with you. You've done this before. When I asked you where it says to rely only on scripture you quote where Scripture is God's word NOT where it is ALL of God's word. But you just go on as if you've answered.



Perhaps you have difficulty with English, because you've said exactly what we've said sola scriptura is; that you rely on scripture alone. If scripture alone is sufficient it should itself say where it is sufficient.

If it doesn’t then you're relying on something OTHER THAN scripture to say rely ONLY ON scripture.
Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.
It is not a claim that all truth of every kind is found in Scripture. But it is sufficient .. We do not need anything else other than..
2Ti 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Here it is in the KJV

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

So if the man of God may be perfect and thoroughly equipped for every Good work then may I ask why would
we need more than this? If Scripture is inspired by God and is God breathed then why would we need tradtion which is hand me down habits?
 
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Rick Otto

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Where then was 'the Church' practicing 'right faith' for 1,500 years?
ROME? (jes' keeeeeding!)

We try to speak 'your language' and ask where Scripture itself says itself is sufficient, and you won't answer.
WHAT!? The Bereans were chopped liver? Is there a tradition that says not only did they search the scriptures, but they checked their tradition to see if the Apostles were fer real??????????????

So you don't have the ECFs proving your point, and you don't have Scripture, what then do you have?
Scripture. It is written.:cool:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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ROME? (jes' keeeeeding!)


WHAT!? The Bereans were chopped liver? Is there a tradition that says not only did they search the scriptures, but they checked their tradition to see if the Apostles were fer real??????????????


Scripture. It is written.:cool:
surely the Jews knew what was written :p

Luke 24:44 He said yet toward them "these the words of Me which I speak toward ye still being together ye, that is binding to be filled all the having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772) in the Law of Moses, and the prophets and psalms about Me".
 
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Rick Otto

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Originally Posted by Rick Otto
Is that a new topic? I ask because that is not Sola Scriptura.
Sola Scriptura is just a method of using scripture to verify the truth of what is being offered from any source as spiritual truth. As a method, it is illustrated best by the Bereans, but it is also alluded to by the scripturaly popular saying "It is written".
Look how many times that phrase is used in scripture, especialy by Jesus. Then compare it to the number of times you see "It is said" or "Have you not heard" and subtract the number of times "Have you not heard " is referring to something that has been written.
quote=Montalban; But Jesus spoke to us, that is, he taught by word of mouth. He also says "Have you not heard it 'said'"
1. Matthew 5:21
[ Murder ] "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'

2. Matthew 5:27
[ Adultery ] "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'

3. Matthew 5:33
[ Oaths ] "Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.'

4. Matthew 5:38
[ An Eye for an Eye ] "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'

5. Matthew 5:43
[ Love for Enemies ] "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'

Monty, I told you "It has been said", or "Have you heard" doesn't support tradition - it doesn't count - when it refers to something that
was actualy written and even widely known among illiterates, to have been written!

So the point still is, where have you 'read' that you should only 'read' the truth?

Nowhere. I read in scripture that scripture was referred to, to check if what the Apostles were saying was true. Nowhere is there an example of anyone referring to tradition to see if what the Apostles was saying was so. Ergo, Sola Scriptura has strong scriptural support, tradition as a reference to check truth does not. Sure it says to remember, but that isn't an argument against Sola Scriptura, nor is it a recomendation of tradition as a reference for checking truth.
 
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Rick Otto

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Obviously according to Rick Otto, the fact that there are 27 books, it is not 'true', because this fact was comprehended from outside scripture, but we can discern 'truth' from within those 27 books that we don't know are true

:confused:
You're totaly trippin'.
We can check what scriptures we aren't sure are true from what scriptures we know are true., just like the Bereans checked what the apostles were saying by referring to scripture.

How do you come to the conclusion that the veracity of the 27 books was comprehended without checking them against the OT? Tradition?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Montalban

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It is not a claim that all truth of every kind is found in Scripture.

I didn't ask you for Scripture to show all truth. Thanks for the straw-man


Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.

And the 'truth' that you should rely on scripture for salvation is not contained IN scripture.

Try again.
 
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Montalban

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We can check what scriptures we aren't sure are true from what scriptures we know are true., just like the Bereans checked what the apostles were saying by referring to scripture.
Which is circular logic. How do you know those that are true, are true?
How do you come to the conclusion that the veracity of the 27 books was comprehended without checking them against the OT? Tradition?

By seeing what the Church had to say of them. They held tradition of what books were known to and through the church and what books taught against what the church taught.

You're totaly trippin'.
Try again
 
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