We used to have some good discussions on the GT board didn't we?
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7021264&page=6
Question. Can Orthodox also be considered Protestants?
Catholics think they are. Orthodox think the Catholics are and say the whole reason there are thousands of denominations is that the Catholic Church is in schizm from them and it goes round and round.
What
I think is that all the churches need to just read the fathers. Let them read the Bible, then read the early apostolic fathers for themselves. Let them stop clinging to their preconceived notions of what church has to be to justify their previous decisions about what denominations they've joined or how they view what the true "body of Christ" is since both sides refuse the term "denomination."
Do that very honestly and, well, you'll probably become an Anglican, another group that does not consider itself schizmatic, Protestant or denominational. But at least you'll have a truly Biblical faith that is grounded in the fathers.
The title of this thread is "who really cares what the early church fathers had to say?" so since this is my first post in it, I'll also offer my answer. Simply put, I do because I know that we all have a vital interest in them. In fact, it is an eschatological imperative that our hearts be restored to them as expressed in the very last verse of the whole Old Testament.
5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. (Malachi 4:5-6 KJV)
Malachi said that when Elijah comes he will restore the hearts of the children to the fathers. As the term was used in his day this would have referred to the original faith. In the Christian context, it would refer to a restoration to a genuinely apostolic faith, a Biblical faith where the fathers are the twelve and the early church fathers who carried their word forward. However, the idea that a "restoration" is involved implies that the church at some point falls into apostasy. We can agree to disagree about what that may mean for the moment but a thorough exegesis of this verse is surely called for.
Malachi added that he would also restore the hearts of the fathers to their children. Well, since both the Biblical and subsequent fathers are all reposed in the Lord how can their hearts be restored? Either the reference is (1) to an active church that has (gasp) a thing called "fathers" or (2) it refers (gasp again) to the intercession of the saints in the communion of saints.
Or both.
Similarly, there is (3) the Dobson interpretation, where families are restored - a very nice picture for kingdom living.
And lastly, (4) there is the spiritual father interpretation. This involves relationships between confessors and their disciples.
The figurehead in this last possibility, as I see it is St. Symeon the New Theologian. Now there is a saint who truly would bless the world if he would be restored! In fact, he preached around 1015-1050, just prior to the schizm of the Catholics/Orthodox to his monastery. His writings were buried in obscurity by the bishops he criticized. But he spoke about things like being born again and baptized in the Holy Spirit, a little bit off the charts for people of his day, but just recently his works have become very popular.
Why do I say he is a 'figurehead' for the restoration of the fathers? It is his devotion to his own spiritual father, St. Symeon and his teaching on spiritual fatherhood.
Out of all of these possibilities, I like all of them together the most. If I had to pick one, and I don't feel I have to, I'd go for the order 1-2-4-3. When Jesus said that Elijah would restore all things, I see all four interpretations being fulfilled, all four of these things and more, in the preparation of the bride in the filling of the Spirit in the last days.
So why are the fathers so important? The abundantly merciful heart of the Lord is revealed in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which makes love flow from the heart so that the kingdom is manifest on earth as it is in heaven. This infilling and outpouring is the core of our faith. In such a faith, understanding prevails, rather than dissension because the love of the truth is made alive and vibrant in an atmosphere of trust that is appropriate to Christian brotherhood in spirit, not just in name.
I've asked who the "fathers" were, but not discussed who the "children" are. In a return to spiritual discipleship they are the church. In a return to the hearts of the early church fathers they are the church. In a return to the communion of saints they are the church. In a return to Focus on the Family they are the church. They are the present day church, the bride in preparation, in each case.
So what is church? It is all of those people who seek the face of the Lord. They ask to know Him. He reveals Hs heart to them in a spiritual outpouring. We don't need to point to some group here or there.
In my opinion, it is trans-denominational. It is all those who love the truth, despite the fact that the Lord allowed satan to send a lie so the antichrist would be revealed. It is the children of God.
The children are placed in the care of the clergy of the church. They are converts. What will the clergy teach them? Will they turn them into twice the sons of hell? Or will their hearts be restored because Christ prevails in love and in an outpouring which the fathers know and share, like the fire that the Lord said he came to kindle on the earth?
Luke 12:49
"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!"
The scary part is, that Malachi does not guarantee that the hearts of the children will be restored. Fortunately, Jesus spoke more affirmatively, saying with respect to Elijah "he will restore all things" (Mt 17:11). We'd better hope he does.
One thing I think one finds when reading the early church fathers is a very well-rounded Christian perspective. It is neither Catholic nor Orthodox. It is neither Catholic nor Protestant. It just is what it is. Wouldn't it be great if we could all just be grounded in the church by being grounded in the fathers, like that? Wouldn't it be cool, if rather than reading our polemical arguments into it all, using it to proof text our views, we just let them be who they were and be blessed by reading them? I guarantee it will open your eyes and bring you to a whole new level of faith and understanding.
And that is my answer to the question, "who really cares what the ECFs had to say?" I do. And more importantly, the Lord does.
