Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

[Anglian]

Actually I cannot see any truth to this. For I see the RCC being traced only to when Rome declared what would be Chritianity and added pegan rituals. The Marian Doctrine was not even deemed dogma until the 1800's or so.. So if it dates clear back to the Apostles why do we not see in the written scriptures any of what the EO or the RCC claim?

Dear MamaZ,

We have been through this many times. The Orthodox do not have any 'Marian doctrine'. They follow the line of St. Luke in 1:28, where the Archangel Gabriel calls the Virgin 'highly favoured' with God and the most 'blessed' of all women. They follow the line of St. Luke in 1:Luke 42-3, where St. Elizabeth calls her 'blessed' and 'the mother of my Lord'.

Inspired herself, the blessed Theotokos says in Luke 1:48: 'All generations will call me blessed'.

So, obedient to Scripture, the Orthodox call her 'blessed' and 'the mother of my Lord'. Is this an early enough example of why we do what it says in the Bible? Do you do what it says here?

Peace,

Anglian

 

[simonthezealot]

erecting straw men? We noticed.

Only you have argued that Councils are infallible - and then only to say they aren't - when no one said they were.

Peace,

Anglian

The strawmen comment got old about 2 years ago on here...

 

[MamaZ]

Dear MamaZ,

We have been through this many times. The Orthodox do not have any 'Marian doctrine'. They follow the line of St. Luke in 1:28, where the Archangel Gabriel calls the Virgin 'highly favoured' with God and the most 'blessed' of all women. They follow the line of St. Luke in 1:Luke 42-3, where St. Elizabeth calls her 'blessed' and 'the mother of my Lord'.

Inspired herself, the blessed Theotokos says in Luke 1:48: 'All generations will call me blessed'.

So, obedient to Scripture, the Orthodox call her 'blessed' and 'the mother of my Lord'. Is this an early enough example of why we do what it says in the Bible? Do you do what it says here?

Peace,

Anglian

I am not commanded to call Mary blessed.. Tee hee. For all who obey God are blessed and not just Mary. Jesus tells us this in scripture. In fact He even states that anyone who hears and obeys God these are His mother brother and sisters.. So now where does exauting Mary even fit within What Jesus said?

 

[simonthezealot]

Please give some cited source, or do you want us to to just take your word for it? I am sure you have study these councils for years and have there official documents, to which you can cite.

from The Seven Ecumenical Councils of the Undivided Church, trans H. R. Percival, in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 2nd Series, ed. P. Schaff and H. Wace, (repr. Grand Rapids MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1955), XIV, pp. 523-587

I've isolated the portion that cuts to the chase.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/nicea2.html

Tarasius, the new Patriarch of Constantinople and a supporter of images, succeeded, after overcoming much difficulty, and especially distrust in Rome and the East, after also removing the excited army, in bringing together a General Council of about 350 bishops at Nicaea, A.D. 787, which reversed the decrees of A.D. 754. The proceedings of the seven sittings are of great value, because very important patristic passages have been preserved in them which otherwise would have perished; for at this synod also the discussions turned chiefly on the Fathers. The decision (oros) restored orthodoxy and finally settled it.

 

[Anglian]

I am not commanded to call Mary blessed.. Tee hee. For all who obey God are blessed and not just Mary. Jesus tells us this in scripture. In fact He even states that anyone who hears and obeys God these are His mother brother and sisters.. So now where does exauting Mary even fit within What Jesus said?

Dear MamaZ,

The plain word of Scripture, ma'am, the plain word of Scripture. I quoted what is in St. Luke and what the archangel said. thinkWhy should the fact that all who obey God are blessed contradict what Luke says about St. Mary? Do you only need to obey the word of God when it agrees with your own tradition? The plain words of St. Luke are there for all to read. If you choose to say they do not apply to you, so be it. I prefer the plain word of Scripture in the tradition which produced it.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[Ramon96]

The strawmen comment got old about 2 years ago on here...

Yes, I can see you cannot answer nor respond to my posts. Is that part of Protestant tradition? When will you answer my questions? Next year? Never?

 

[Ramon96]

from The Seven Ecumenical Councils of the Undivided Church, trans H. R. Percival, in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 2nd Series, ed. P. Schaff and H. Wace, (repr. Grand Rapids MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1955), XIV, pp. 523-587

I've isolated the portion that cuts to the chase.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/nicea2.html

Tarasius, the new Patriarch of Constantinople and a supporter of images, succeeded, after overcoming much difficulty, and especially distrust in Rome and the East, after also removing the excited army, in bringing together a General Council of about 350 bishops at Nicaea, A.D. 787, which reversed the decrees of A.D. 754. The proceedings of the seven sittings are of great value, because very important patristic passages have been preserved in them which otherwise would have perished; for at this synod also the discussions turned chiefly on the Fathers. The decision (oros) restored orthodoxy and finally settled it.

But was that a Ecumenical Council [the one in 754AD]?

 

[Anglian]

Dear Simon,

So, you have yet again proved what we have asserted, that the Councils are not infallible unless they agree with the rest of Holy Tradition.

You're coming on well in the Orthodox tradition.

peace,

Anglian

 

[Ramon96]

Dear Simon,

So, you have yet again proved what we have asserted, that the Councils are not infallible unless they agree with the rest of Holy Tradition.

You're coming on well in the Orthodox tradition.

peace,

Anglian

Yes, he has.

 

[Anglian]

The strawmen comment got old about 2 years ago on here...

Then stop creating them.

No one has argued that the Orthodox do not hold the Bible to be the inspired word of God; or that Councils are infallible; or that the ECFs have the same weight as Scripture. These are all points you have raised.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[Ramon96]

Then stop creating them.

No one has argued that the Orthodox do not hold the Bible to be the inspired word of God; or that Councils are infallible; or that the ECFs have the same weight as Scripture. These are all points you have raised.

Peace,

Anglian

He have to make strawmen comments, as this is the only way he can discussion these issues with us.

 

[simonthezealot]

Tradition consists of 4 main parts, and when taken as a whole act as our guide to the Truth: Holy Scripture; Holy Liturgy; the Saints and Fathers; the Councils. When all concur we know there is Truth.

Okay what about when they don't? for example the issue of image worship? For you guys you continue on flying in the face of scripture. Where we will always err on the unmistakeably innerrant written word of God. This is from the OT so drop the canon issue...The Jews already took care of these..

 

[Ramon96]

Okay what about when they don't? for example the issue of image worship? For you guys you continue on flying in the face of scripture. Where we will always err on the unmistakeably innerrant written word of God. This is from the OT so drop the canon issue...The Jews already took care of these..

Again, strawmen comment. No one have said that all Councils were infallible! And you have to answer all my questions. And the Jews had no authority to see a OT Canon. Yes, follow those Christ-hated Jews in the 90AD who officially set the Canon. I follow Christ' Church.

 

[simonthezealot]

Then stop creating them.

No one has argued that the Orthodox do not hold the Bible to be the inspired word of God; or that Councils are infallible; or that the ECFs have the same weight as Scripture. These are all points you have raised.

Peace,

Anglian

Great so now we are in agreement to these exact points, why care what they have to say? why not just go back to the holy scriptures both OT and NT?
It is the COMPLETE deposit of faith.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Again, strawmen comment. No one have said that all Councils were infallible! And you have to answer all my questions.

I suppose that could include the Roman Pope and Papacy?

 

[Anglian]

Okay what about when they don't? for example the issue of image worship? For you guys you continue on flying in the face of scripture. Where we will always err on the unmistakeably innerrant written word of God. This is from the OT so drop the canon issue...The Jews already took care of these..

Dear Simon,

Still not willing to admit that the canon of the NT is something you owe to the God-inspired Church, I see.

You show us where the four pillars of Holy tradition contradict each other, and we can start another thread. The iconoclast controversy was sorted out when the Church brought all four pillars into balance.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[Ramon96]

Great so now we are in agreement to these exact points, why care what they have to say? why not just go back to the holy scriptures both OT and NT?
It is the COMPLETE deposit of faith.

Again, where in Scriptures does it state that it is the complete deposit of Faith? Where in Scriptures does it state that Scriptures is the only thing we must follow? You have yet to answer these questions. The Canon was put together by the Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit!

 

[Anglian]

Great so now we are in agreement to these exact points, why care what they have to say? why not just go back to the holy scriptures both OT and NT?
It is the COMPLETE deposit of faith.

Dear Simon,

I must have missed the place in Scripture where it defines what is Scripture. I blame you, we've been asking for the place where it does, and you're playing all coy.
Peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Again, where in Scriptures does it state that it is the complete deposit of Faith? Where in Scriptures does it state that Scriptures is the only thing we must follow? You have yet to answer these questions. The Canon was put together by the Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit!

And couldn't you also say the Orthodox split from that Church because of the Holy Spirit because of this: ?

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6869285&page=10
Some of the many Errors in the Catholic church.

 

[simonthezealot]

Where in Scriptures does it state that Scriptures is the only thing we must follow?

Ramon the jews of Jesus' day also like you placed tradition on an equal footing with Scripture and FOLLOWED it closely, and I don't recall if the had their canon in place yet but in effect, they made tradition superior to Scripture, because like with you guys Scripture was/is interpreted by tradition and therefore made subject to it. Whenever tradition is elevated to such a high level of authority, it inevitably becomes detrimental to the authority of Scripture.
Jesus made this very point when he confronted the Jewish leaders. He showed that in many cases their traditions actually nullified Scripture. He therefore rebuked them in the harshest terms.