Mary as mediatrix?

[kisstheson]

In Revaltions alot of things can be left to ambiguous interpretation for political gains.

That is why I used Revelations 5:5. It is hard to mistate that Jesus is the Lion of Judah who is then called the Root. So when that cannot be easily misapplied, then you have to turn around and ask who is being adressed as the Tree of Life ? It makes no sense that the author calls Jesus the Root and the Lion but then would want the meaning of Tree of Life to be appplied to anyone other than the Lord. Then in John we see that Jesus refers to himself as the Bread of Life. Where in the Gospel do we see Jesus bestow any such title towards Mary ?

again thank you. man does this whole thinj got me unnerved. Please give Jesus the credit that due Him people. Are you actually READING what your brother is saying or do you think that mary will be offended?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

No monica..stating that mary is the tree of life, and all the other things I mentioned are not just words. Its error amd takes away from christ's glory. Mary herself would be offended especially because she points to her son and not to herself.

I ask you once again sis..

who here has said that Mary points to herself and not to her Son? Have I not been saying all along that she leads us to Jesus?

did you understand the REASONS we said she's the tree of life.. we said so NOT because we think life comes from her.. but simply because she bore Jesus.. tree/fruit.

God knows that I'm not trying to take away from His glory. He knows my heart. So neither do my words take away from His glory.

I haven't read all of this thread but this is one thought I have about the Tree of Life issue.
Mary is the "New Eve." Eve means, "Mother of all the living," right? In that sense, then, Tree of Life could be applied to Mary, in that she is the Mother of the Church. Life sprang from her womb because God put Jesus there. So in that sense I don't think applying Tree of Life to Mary would be far fetched at all.

We see through a glass darkly, all of us do. I wish people wouldn't get so upset around here sometimes! I don't come here much anymore cause even in OBOB there's a lot of debate.

I think there's many things in Revelations that could be applied to more than one meaning.

The whole issue with Mary is really one of faith when it comes down to it. Like everything else in Christianity!

I fully agree with this

TLF: "The Church teaches us that at every celebration of the Mass Mary is intimately joined in offering us her Son in the Eucharist."

Oh my God..may Jesus have mercy. You practically make her a part of the Holy Trinity which is goddess worship. no wonder why some protestants think you worship her. Forget it. I can't take this. I am grieved by this. I mean is it that difficult to say that Jesus is the Tree of Life in Revelations? I wonder.

False imgaes my foot...programming? If that is what the church teaches I want nooo part of it.

Has anyone here said that Mary is part of the Trinity?? Did you find this in the Catechism? If not, then it's not Catholic teaching.

TLF did not say that Mary is part of the Trinity.

She said that Mary is present and involved in every Mass.
That's because..Mary leads us to her Son. When He is in the Eucharist, she leads us to the Eucharist!

There's nothing wrong with saying things like "she offers us her Son".
Even when we say the Divine Mercy chaplet..it goes.."Eternal Father, I offer You, the Body and Blood the Soul and Divinity of Your dearly Beloved Son, Jesus Christ.."
and these are HIS words. He gave this chaplet to St. Faustina.

 

[kisstheson]

I ask you once again sis..

who here has said that Mary points to herself and not to her Son? Have I not been saying all along that she leads us to Jesus?

did you understand the REASONS we said she's the tree of life.. we said so NOT because we think life comes from her.. but simply because she bore Jesus.. tree/fruit.

God knows that I'm not trying to take away from His glory. He knows my heart. So neither do my words take away from His glory.



I fully agree with this



Has anyone here said that Mary is part of the Trinity?? Did you find this in the Catechism? If not, then it's not Catholic teaching.

TLF did not say that Mary is part of the Trinity.

She said that Mary is present and involved in every Mass.
That's because..Mary leads us to her Son. When He is in the Eucharist, she leads us to the Eucharist!

There's nothing wrong with saying things like "she offers us her Son".
Even when we say the Divine Mercy chaplet..it goes.."Eternal Father, I offer You, the Body and Blood the Soul and Divinity of Your dearly Beloved Son, Jesus Christ.."
and these are HIS words. He gave this chaplet to St. Faustina.

Mary doesn't offer Jesus me. the priest does. forget about. I'll think about Jesus when I go to communion, not Mary. Now I'm really outta here. Later.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I'm your friend too. That's why I'm arguing. really...what's the big deal to admit that she simply is not the Tree of Life in the book of revelations?

We are discussing this with you too because we care about you and that you eventually have a right understanding of what all this means.

I guess I could ask, what is the big deal about it being Mary? She bore the fruit of her womb Jesus into the world, the Tree of Life symbolically depicts her as bearing Jesus in the eucharist to us.

This takes nothing away from Jesus.

The treee of life in Rev 22:2 can't be Jesus because He is the Lamb with the Father on the throne in vs 1.


So if it isn't Mary, who is it? Who is the "Her" who offers "her leaves"?

She will not be offended. That what I don't understand about some cathilocs and that's why some prots think "C's" worship Mary. Because clearly you guys don't want to yeild just that one verse to Jesus.

As Monica and I have pointed out . . . Jesus is the Lamb in verse 1 . . .so what sense would it be to call Jesus, who is depicted on the throne with the Father as the Lamb, from whom proceeds the Holy Spirit, the river of life, the tree of life here?

It makes no sense.


Think further on this: The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son - The throne of God and the Lamb. In the incarnation the Holy Spirit overshadows Mary and conceives Jesus within her . . .

Now, the depiction of vs 2 has the River of the water of Life, symbolic depiciton of the Holy Spirit, has the Holy Spirit entering and flowing through the tree of life - going within the tree of life.

This is easily seen as a symbolic depiction of the Incarnation which puts Mary at the pivotal point of salvific history from which all salvation to man flows.

To honor her in this way takes nothing from Jesus,

 

[Amylisa]

In Revaltions alot of things can be left to ambiguous interpretation for political gains.

That is why I used Revelations 5:5. It is hard to mistate that Jesus is the Lion of Judah who is then called the Root. So when that cannot be easily misapplied, then you have to turn around and ask who is being adressed as the Tree of Life ? It makes no sense that the author calls Jesus the Root and the Lion but then would want the meaning of Tree of Life to be appplied to anyone other than the Lord. Then in John we see that Jesus refers to himself as the Bread of Life. Where in the Gospel do we see Jesus bestow any such title towards Mary ?

Okay, well as i stated I haven't read all of this thread, but I should go read Rev. 5 before I post anymore! Maybe I wasn't correct about what you guys are all addressing.

Be back later!

 

[BAFRIEND]

Monica, I believe that calling Mary the Tree of Life is about as close as you can get to going against the Church authority that tells us we may not use titles of Jesus that take away from the effacy of Jesus being the sole mediator and only redeemor.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Regarding taking away from Christ's glory....

I have heard that a lot, and I think it's an incorrect statement.

Here's a good analogy I heard once.

Suppose there are 2 Kings.
One is seated on a glorious throne. Around this throne is a wonderful, beautiful Court. All the people there are dressed in their finest, to honor the one whose presence they are privileged to be in. Some people there have received special recognition and honor from the King, and all are celebrating his generous heart. The throne room itself is spectacular. And the glory of this King is so grand it spills down over his people that he rules over, those who occupy his kingdom.

The 2nd King also is seated upon a beautiful, royal throne. But there's nothing around him. Just a bare-walled chamber, with an empty, concrete floor. No decoration, no banners. No people. No celebration. None of his gracious honors bestowed upon his people, no sharing of celebration of his generosity and kindness. After all, we don't want to take away from hisglory!

But which King is the more glorious one?
The first one sure seems much more so to me.

that's very clever! And I agree totally.

no..JESUS is the Tree of Life in the Book of revelations. man...I gotta get out of here...*runs for the door nearly in tears.*

Im sorry you're upset sis. But please understand no one here is trying to take any glory away from Jesus! Do you trust Him that He knows all our hearts and knows exactly what we mean? Let's say that I'm wrong. oki. But - God knows that my intention was never to say anything against Him. If I'm wrong, that would be just me using a word incorrectly! Wouldn't you agree that God cares more about our intentions and thoughts than the words we use to express them?

again thank you. man does this whole thinj got me unnerved. Please give Jesus the credit that due Him people. Are you actually READING what your brother is saying or do you think that mary will be offended?

why do you think that we call Mary these things because we're afraid of offending her?

 

[BAFRIEND]

Lumen Gentium of Vatican II discussed a variety of titles... adding this caution: The attribution of these titles should be "so understood that it neither takes away anything from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator" (n. 62). _ Fr Stravinskas Catholic Answer Book Vol. 2.

In light of this...

 

[thereselittleflower]

Mary doesn't offer Jesus me. the priest does. forget about. I'll think about Jesus when I go to communion, not Mary. Now I'm really outta here. Later.

Are you receiving communion at a Catholic Mass when you are not yet Catholic?

If so, you need to stop until you do come into the Catholic Church.

To partake of communion in a Catholic Church means that you accept and profess all the Catholic Church teaches is true, and that you have confessed to a priest all your serous sins and received absolution.

To partake without this being true means one is partaking of Holy Communion contrary to the teachings of the Church and in disobedience to the Church.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I clearly came away from what you have said understanding that you were not yet Catholic.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Mary doesn't offer Jesus me. the priest does. forget about. I'll think about Jesus when I go to communion, not Mary. Now I'm really outta here. Later.

the Mass is heavenly worship. We worship with all the angels and Saints, and with Mary.

Think further on this: The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son - The throne of God and the Lamb. In the incarnation the Holy Spirit overshadows Mary and conceives Jesus within her . . .

Now, the depiction of vs 2 has the River of the water of Life, symbolic depiciton of the Holy Spirit, has the Holy Spirit entering and flowing through the tree of life - going within the tree of life.

This is easily seen as a symbolic depiction of the Incarnation which puts Mary at the pivotal point of salvific history from which all salvation to man flows.

To honor her in this way takes nothing from Jesus,

(btw.."Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city" ....this reminds me of the Filioque! )

Monica, I believe that calling Mary the Tree of Life is about as close as you can get to going against the Church authority that tells us we may not use titles of Jesus that take away from the effacy of Jesus being the sole mediator and only redeemor.

Bafriend,

I think..Jesus knows that I'm not saying that anyone but Him is a Mediator and Redeemer.

It would be great if people realized this, and didn't accuse me of taking away from His glory when this was never my intention. I believe He knows our intentions.

Anyway, I have said before that I'm not sure about my interpretation of Revelation, and I'm leaving it to God.

If I'm wrong, then I hope God forgives me. But it was never my intention to make Mary seem like a Mediator and Redeemer, and God knows that I don't consider her to be such. I believe that she is involved in God's work of salvation, but in a secondary way as an intercessor and Mother of Christ.. I think we Catholics would all agree with this. Of course Jesus is the sole Mediator and Redeemer.

 

[BAFRIEND]

Are you receiving communion at a Catholic Mass when you are not yet Catholic?

If so, you need to stop until you do come into the Catholic Church.

To partake of communion in a Catholic Church means that you accept and profess all the Catholic Church teaches is true, and that you have confessed to a priest all your serous sins and received absolution.

To partake without this being true means one is partaking of Holy Communion contrary to the teachings of the Church and in disobedience to the Church.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I clearly came away from what you have said understanding that you were not yet Catholic.

She is a cradle Catholic, she has inherited her faith. All she needs to do is go to confession to receive communion. For all you know she is confirmed.

I am also a confirmed Catholic, baptised in the Catholic Church with Catholic parents and Godparents, please stop thinking you are above us.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Oki..I just want to say one last thing before I officially retire from this thread. lol.

Idolatry doesn't happen in our words, but in our hearts.

Please think about this.

God's peace

 

[Amylisa]

May I just say here for Monica....

She is learning about the Catholic Church right now. She isn't a confirmed Catholic yet, so can we give her a break and be a little more understanding? Give information but please no one accuse her of idolatry or other such things.

Some gentleness is in order.



thank you. we now return you to your regularly scheduled topic!

 

[thereselittleflower]

I haven't read all of this thread but this is one thought I have about the Tree of Life issue.
Mary is the "New Eve." Eve means, "Mother of all the living," right? In that sense, then, Tree of Life could be applied to Mary, in that she is the Mother of the Church. Life sprang from her womb because God put Jesus there. So in that sense I don't think applying Tree of Life to Mary would be far fetched at all.

We see through a glass darkly, all of us do. I wish people wouldn't get so upset around here sometimes! I don't come here much anymore cause even in OBOB there's a lot of debate.

I think there's many things in Revelations that could be applied to more than one meaning.

The whole issue with Mary is really one of faith when it comes down to it. Like everything else in Christianity!

Exactly.

And this is just another dimension of this entire symbolilsm of Mary as the Tree of Life.

If it was wrong, the Early Church would not have used this title for Mary.

 

[BAFRIEND]

the Mass is heavenly worship. We worship with all the angels and Saints, and with Mary.





(btw.."Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city" ....this reminds me of the Filioque!



Bafriend,

I think..Jesus knows that I'm not saying that anyone but Him is a Mediator and Redeemer.

It would be great if people realized this, and didn't accuse me of taking away from His glory when this was never my intention. I believe He knows our intentions.

Anyway, I have said before that I'm not sure about my interpretation of Revelation, and I'm leaving it to God.

If I'm wrong, then I hope God forgives me. But it was never my intention to make Mary seem like a Mediator and Redeemer, and God knows that I don't consider her to be such.

Monica, I am only addressing to what is going on in this thread and only God knows the hearts of those posting here. One of the problems for me is that someone is trying to hype claims of protestantism and revertism etc etc against me for basically stating what is Church teaching. So, I hope that if I come off the wrong way you will see that some of it comes from pain.

I pray the rosary at least once a week and love the Litany of Saints. As me and others here have stated this is asking the Saints to pray for us and not praying to the saints, giving honor to those who came before us and set the example for us while also respecting the Lord and giving unto God that which belongs to God.

For that we are being punished and labeled as somehow being less Catholic by those we feel may have taken devotions too far.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Bafriend, I do not see you as less of a Catholic for this, and I've never said that about you

Amylisa, thanks for your kind words, sis

God bless

 

[Amylisa]

I understand people saying that Rev 5 presents Christ as The Tree of Life.

Where in the early church did Christians refer to Mary by a title like this? Not saying I don't believe they did, I just don't know where to find that info.
Even if it is so that they referred to Mary this way, of course it was not in the same sense as Christ Himself.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Oki..I just want to say one last thing before I officially retire from this thread. lol.

Idolatry doesn't happen in our words, but in our hearts.

Please think about this.

God's peace

Everyone should think about this who even dare to think that Catholics are guilty of idolatry.

Idolatry is a matter of the heart, not words as Monica has said.

Those who accuse others of idolatry are essenatially making the claim they can read another's heart, which is GOD"S perrogative alone.

 

[BAFRIEND]

Everyone should think about this who even dare to think that Catholics are guilty of idolatry.

Idolatry is a matter of the heart, not words as Monica has said.

Those who accuse others of idolatry are essenatially making the claim they can read another's heart, which is GOD"S perrogative alone.

Let's make a distinction. It is not judging when we can discern that another is in sin for doing something that Bible itself tells us is a sin. If we were not to discern the behavior of others than how could we follow such directives like the one from St. Paul when he tells us not to call the sexually immoral our brother ? Or when he tells us to counsel those who spread false teaching ?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Monica, I am only addressing to what is going on in this thread and only God knows the hearts of those posting here.

I disagree. What is going in in this thread is not what you are claiming or addressing . . no one is guilty of idolatry or even coming close to idolatry though this has been a constant accusations.

One of the problems for me is that someone is trying to hype claims of protestantism and revertism etc etc against me for basically stating what is Church teaching.

No one has hyped any such thing BA. And your pov of Church teacing on this is all you are stating.

So, I hope that if I come off the wrong way you will see that some of it comes from pain.

I pray the rosary at least once a week and love the Litany of Saints. As me and others here have stated this is asking the Saints to pray for us and not praying to the saints, giving honor to those who came before us and set the example for us while also respecting the Lord and giving unto God that which belongs to God.

For that we are being punished and labeled as somehow being less Catholic by those we feel may have taken devotions too far.

Punished???? By whom??? Who is punishing whom BA???

And no one has labeled you or anyone as "less Cathaolic". This is a gross misrepresentation of what has happened in this thread and it might be good to step back from it rather than perpetuate such misrepresentations of the intents of others.