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Does the sun revolve around the earth?

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ArmyMatt

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just from my own personal opinion, but why would God keep man in the dark about the nature of his true origins and tell Moses something false about where he came from? why would it take a British agnostic and secular science to get it right?

why didn't God just tell Moses the basics of common descent and evolution, and just not get into the deeper science of it that Moses could not understand because the Israelites would not have had the technology?

it is mind boggling to me that the God Who is Truth, would tell Moses something that didn't happen.
 
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SpyridonOCA

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I strongly recommend reading this article:
Orthodoxy and Creationism
Fr. Deacon Andrey Kuraev​

As a professor at one of Russia's oldest seminaries, Fr. Kuraev is more knowledgeable of Orthodox theology and science than any member of this forum. It's astounding the amount of arrogance that creationists can demonstrate in the face of those who are obviously more knowledgeable and authoritative than they are. That is not to say that creationists haven't a right to their position, but it is extremely arrogant to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as being "anti-patristic" or "materialists."

Orthodoxy has neither a textual nor a doctrinal basis to reject evolutionism. Neither does it make sense for Orthodox Christians to indulge the current fashion of irrationality (since any irrationality, in the end, will favor occultism and will work against the Church). Before beginning, it should be said that it is more a novelty than a tradition among the Orthodox to disclaim evolution.


First of all, according to the views of the theologians of the very traditionalist Russian Church Abroad, "the Days of creation should be understood not literally ("For a thousand years in Thine eyes, O Lord, are but as yesterday that is past, and as a watch in the night.") but as periods!"

Secondly, the idea of evolution, given its separation from its atheist interpretation, is discussed quite positively in works by Orthodox authors. Prof. Ivan M. Andreev, having rejected the idea that man evolved from monkey, says: "In everything else, Darwinism does not contradict the biblical teaching on the creation of living things because evolution does not address the question of who created the first animals."
Professor of the St. Petersburg Theological Academy, Archbishop Michael (Mudyugin) writes: "The process of evolution of the organic world belongs to the category of phenomena in whose description in the Bible and in the pages of any biology textbook it is easy to see an amazing degree of similarity. The biblical terminology itself fits into the same surprising coincidence — it is said: "Let the water bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life." "Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle and creeping things, and beast of the earth after his kind." Here the verb "bring forth" points to the link between distinct phases in formation of the animal world, moreover, to the connection between nonliving and living matter."
Professor Alexey I. Osipov, of the Moscow Theological Academy supposes: "For theology, both the creationist and evolutionary hypotheses are permissible, in principle. That is with the condition that in both cases the Lawgiver and the Creator of the world is God. All existing species He could create either by "days," at once and in final form, or gradually, in the course of "days" to "bring them forth" from water and earth, from lower forms to the highest by way of laws that He built into nature."
Professor of St. Vladimir’s Theological Seminary in New York, Fr. Vasili Zenkovsky also emphasized the biblical "creative potential" of the earth: "It is clearly stated in the text of the Bible that the Lord gives an order to the earth to act with its own strength . . . This inherent creative activity of nature, "elan vital" (in the expression of Bergson) — the aspiration to life, helps to understand an indisputable fact of evolution of life on earth."
http://www.sullivan-county.com/id4/ort_creation.htm#_Toc517319270


 
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jckstraw72

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St. Nektarios is more knowledgeable than Fr. Dcn. Kuraev. Good enough for me.

and ive read his stuff already, i recall him quoting St. Theophan the Recluse, but from my memory thats it. it is his own work, apart from Church Tradition. Pointing out a few select people that agree with you does not demonstrate the phronema of the Church.
 
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gradkiss

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My reply is to spyridonoca...I was never given what is called time's hold of the old, I am of a birth in a time, 1953 that resulted in some discrimination, in Church...yet they recovered and no longer practice what is seen as disparaging as a custom. I was actually scheduled to be killed... by the KKK, as a child....and my sister's and I's removal to Tennessee with a family that practiced our protection with the help of the whole community.
I had an early encounter with what I saw as a light....surrounding my sister...and i was hardly 2....years old. What was unusual, was I sensed the light was taking my sister, and I refused...and offered as trade a blue kerosine lamp as trade. That lamp belonged to someone else...but...it was something I had noticed through the wire of a fense and admired...It disappeared that night....and I was accused...even though I was not large enough...I demonstrated just how hard it was to go over the fense....it was probably three times my heigth and a stick resulted nothing, even with the help of an adult.
The light announced , I would not see my sister in my later years....
This came true...but I have many sisters...brothers....all the same flesh, as the very first that walked this Earth....all going through a continuous genesis that starts as the tart art...sweet and sour then begins.... as be the swing of 'in the center of gifts' my focus....the get of what is to be gotten...as a begotten...a forgiven from before Adam...Eve proves...she was purposed and walked with both our Heavenly Mother and Father...it requires the mysterious missing other....a Father.
Hell? man may not...but for some reason...is in this procedure of protocol that results just that....hell. I do not change one thing, but add...the fold and unfolding of the word, either by letter or word is like the Hebrew...and too like the Chinese, and all other languages.
I was taught, what was the knowlege of three women, as a child....my Dad was always away from home and did not contribute much. I rejoice just that....today...as I found myself walking the walk that Christ said, if this is for you, then foll,ow me....I did but knew to follow my Father as he did....and too I know what was required as fullfilling what was owed to him.
I will not carry a cross as he did....I will not carry the child with me....I see the way that the court found an innocent guilty, and I see the historical proof that resulted...One judicious...does not punish....does not kill, but instead knows what happens sometimes here as an individual on a time line, that is free from pretention or calculation...just what is going to happen regardless....that's how the causals and effectuals in the abode we live in sometines result. Too the judicious one will find remedy....and stop the bad results of the continuous permeation of the causals and effectuals.
I recognize one thing...all here is alive....and yes we may think and fully swing the way we see and declare...the Ocean is a fixed Ocean and land moves...and too we may see the Earth with the sun revolving around it and all the other planets too...or we may see all things known all one...and exist in a state that changes and gave us evidence of movement, when only the amount of influence changed...
The Oblisque opened my way of thinking, but I had to quickly be on guard of those in government that take advatage of us...
One thing more about the sighting of the light as a child...I found it is against Nature, not to take my sister...especially here....women are killed each year in huge numbers...from pollution and diseases...and that is not what is called Godly...smart...intellegent...no...she is where we men originate. From her we enter this place...that a perfect God made for us....the Eqaul here above her as a Bosom Mother of us...to what is above us holding us in subjection...and not only us...but everything in our sight.
We, the male species, men are under subjection to be Sons to a Sun...where the full cup of unction originates as his center...and women should dot our eyes...as completion is her center, our focus and Time's devotion. She is complete...in an ioncomplete place...where man will be judged just for that reason....not having a suitable place for her or her children.
We...see the historically proven....appear as innings...the up and down swing of things...but we too must resolve this situation and remove one of the main factors contributing to the cycled destruction...Money....it's a waste...always depreciative...puts man in a situation where he is encrypt...as unable to see...
We must give credit to what effects us....what is seen as the stimulus that forms the psychosomatical conclusions we know consist of the physical and psyche combinations.
We are the creators here upon Earth...and continually contribute along with the other members of the abode....all are in the same genesis...starting the same way....null and void of the explaination....the truth....the light....we always see a parent....(should) that says the same thing and causes the correct results, " let there be light".
It is our responcibility, due to the nature of our thinking, requiring we be the Head of the abode...in a dominion, our responcibilty to conduct ourselves in the most efficient manner possible...one where all share...as the Nature of what is embodied by all require the sharing.
This is how the malitia was formed by the founders of the united States...a small u...yes....it followed how we in degrees or measured magnitude increased in reaction to certain stimulus, that threatened our existance or health.
I have found...what was was perfect...for even today....and time has changed nothing but found a man in charge of us that does not know how to read or write......his thinking is that far off...influenced by Money....pieces of paper not backed by anything, that we are required to pass from hand to hand...in losses each time and never equals work and will never justify the worth of a man, as no man has worth unless those that surround him are too qualied as with worth...the same worth.
Our God did not institute money...man did...our Heavenly Father is intellegent...proficient...applies the simple instead of the complex....does not hide one thing from us....we just have not seen everything....
A government that keeps secrets from you....will not be positioned correctly with us...no Not the United States....
The United states is about as far from being classified as a government as you can get....they simply do not meet the requirements of morally governing...having moral standards...again....worship....of money....
Sin is an action, that deminishes...destroys...and they are cursed! Without Faith...they follow a book of laws and never accomplish one thing appreciative...Never!
Daniel did not bring death to individuals...he brought death to sin...remedy. the intellegent thing! We are told, there is but one with the vengeance! not Man...we are not to punish here and then get punished again.
I am pleased to find the old....It supports that which we stand upon....Our Bosom Mother....and we the ones that have a temple upon our shoulders....centered as upon Earth. A temple explained and even in measure...as a tent...with three chambers...we are guarenteed that tent and vine...in Heaven...for that is exactly where we are... Heaven upon Earth...
The King of Kings above us and the Queen of Queens, here upon Earth....a Queendom and a Kingdom. together 'tween' time's wisdom of two emotional intellegences the now new...each moment now new...revelant to the correct...above and below...we exist in the middle....as in the center of the twist of time itself. I illistrate this with an eight...there is an upper and lower line that inetrsects in the middle of the eight....that's where we exist...it explains how using a number-line with opposing 1's negative and positive also have a zero....with a dot in the center....the dot is the outside of the zero one side and the dot the other...both sides the opposite....for those with wisdom....you may see there is a portion of time...that is centered...and a distance may be calculated with math....this also explains why things appear to get smaller with distance...why we see the way we do....it even gives explaination for why we have a nose where we have one.
I appreciate your time...and hope you find understanding...here in the underworld....in the here after...where things appear after the fact....things evolve from Time...my explaination....and remember...we have a guide here...a Heavenly father...who will escort us in this journey...
Our religion is a legion of the truth that all may legion with...verifiable proof. Our eyes appear as the sun...pupils, etc...we have two eyes normally...two creators....two ways to manifest what we see as centered for focus....this is the Holy Ghost...the knowlegeable part...where things are stored....the temple....we walk those steps...even when entering the Church, Mosque, any building of worship...
As children we are all as in worship...in our Mother's bosom....her care...yet like a ship...we begin a coxwain...of what is called non dementia'ed praecox...prayers petitions...shared between the two...she teaches in the womb...communicates...and their surroundings...influence both....the same causals and effectuals....
.........gradkiss...............
 
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heart of peace

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*pokes head in* Is it safe to enter this thread? :D

I am not a scholar on this topic nor am I a theologian. I am just a regular ol' Orthodox Christian who is interested in it. Ok, now that I have that out of the way, I pray that I can ask some questions without being brutally ripped to shreds as these threads can get quite heated and slightly personal. :p

First off, I have to say that those who are arguing for different views in this thread make some insightful and thought provoking points. I thank Spyridon for making this thread (I realize some of you in here seem annoyed/frustrated/tired with this topic or with the OP's treatment of the topic, but this is truly my first time sitting through it, reading the words and allowing them to simmer in me. So, for some of us, this is not old news).

Spyridon, I wanted to ask you for clarification regarding your belief in common descent based on the Endogenous retroviral insertion. Are you saying that God created a different being entirely than Adam (science refers to who we are currently as homosapiens, correct? Then this being would not have been a homosapien to you, correct?) in which we are descended from as well as other animals?

Regarding death prior to the fall: Isn't death in the natural world a good thing? Don't the remains return back to the earth helping new life grow more abundantly?

Thank you in advance for your kindness :)
 
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SpyridonOCA

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The Failure of "Intelligent Design"
By Dinesh D'Souza

For a conservative Christian pundit, D'Souza does a good job of explaining why Intelligent Design, and other forms of creationism, is not science.

Certainly if you read the Bible you would never predict Darwin's theory of evolution. But neither from the Scriptural accounts could one predict that the earth goes around the sun. The Bible is not and does not purport to be a science textbook. It takes no position, for example, on the heliocentric theory. Unfortunately, in past centuries, many Christians interpreted a few casual references to the sun "rising" to mean that the earth must be stationary and the sun must revolve around the earth. These interpretations were hasty, to say the least: the Bible is describing sunrise from a human or experiential perspective. Still, these narrow-minded Christians opposed Copernicus and Galileo until they were forced to admit that they were wrong. It wasn't the Bible that was mistaken; it was the foolish certainty of its interpreters that was exposed and discredited...

The problem with evolution is not that it is unscientific but that it is routinely taught in textbooks and in the classroom in an atheist way. Textbooks frequently go beyond the scientific evidence to make metaphysical claims about how evolution renders the idea of a Creator superfluous. My book What's So Great About Christianity provides several examples of this.


Most Christians don't care whether the eye evolved by natural selection or whether Darwin's theories can account for macroevolution or only microevolution. What they care about is that evolution is being used to deny God as the creator. For those who are concerned about this atheism masquerading as science, there is a better way. Instead of trying to get unscientific ID theories included in the classroom, a better strategy would be to get the unscientific atheist propaganda out.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/DineshDSouza/2008/04/07/the_failure_of_intelligent_design
 
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SpyridonOCA

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Spyridon, I wanted to ask you for clarification regarding your belief in common descent based on the Endogenous retroviral insertion. Are you saying that God created a different being entirely than Adam (science refers to who we are currently as homosapiens, correct? Then this being would not have been a homosapien to you, correct?) in which we are descended from as well as other animals?

Universal common descent is an observation rather than a belief. I believe that God created the first life form, whatever it was, from which we are descended. Biological evolution, however, does not explain how life emerged nor where it came from.
 
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Rindicella

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This has probably already been said, because I rarely have original ideas and this is no exception ...LOL....but here's my 2 cents :

Science only serves to explain the mechanics of things, i..e. the "how" of the Universe.
It does not and can never, explain a "philosophical why", nor should it attempt an examination of the Creator's mind. That is the realm of the theologian. So to expect the Bible to explain a scientific theory is really rather nonsensical. The Bible attempts to tell us why God created the universe. Not how he did it. It doesn't matter how he did it. It only matters that He did and His reason for doing so is the only thing that should concern us.
 
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NewToLife

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I dont intend to get into the debate but those of you with an interest in this sort of thing can find a series of talks on the subject of science and orthodoxy by Archbishop Lazar Puhalo over on YouTube. The archbishop also has a number of talks on other subjects also, many of which are well worth watching.
 
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Montalban

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If one were to understand the Bible literally,
Who says we should read poetic termniology literally?

Oh no, the Australian Government has a site that allows me to determine sun rise. I know the sun does not literally rise, they must believe in a geocentric earth!
 
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Protoevangel

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Montalban said:
Who says we should read poetic termniology literally?
ECFs ...
I think you must misunderstand Montalban... But I will admit, perhaps it is I who misunderstand him, though.

I do not think the ECF's teach us to take poetry in a literal manner. History, yes. Prose, yes. the creation account, yes, but not poetry. I don't think Montalban was calling the creation account poetry, but instead, countering Spyridon's ridiculously overly-simplistic comment about taking the Bible literally.

Montalban, feel free to correct me if I misunderstood your point.
 
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Montalban

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I think you must misunderstand Montalban... But I will admit, perhaps it is I who misunderstand him, though.

I do not think the ECF's teach us to take poetry in a literal manner. History, yes. Prose, yes. the creation account, yes, but not poetry. I don't think Montalban was calling the creation account poetry, but instead, countering Spyridon's ridiculously overly-simplistic comment about taking the Bible literally.

Montalban, feel free to correct me if I misunderstood your point.

You got it. Thank you
 
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