Gay theology (i.e. Mel White, Soulforce) why even try?

[WhatThe]

Polycarp_fan, why would anyone bother showing you 'gay supporting scriptures' when they know that you will not even read or consider them? You automatically dismiss anything anyone says, so what is the point?

 

[Polycarp_fan]

More to the point, society changes and stopping it from doing so is impossible - and social conservatism is not a good reason to deny reasonable, ordinary people with real feelings the rights that they deserve.

As in "a man marrying a man"? When has that EVER been "ordinary" or "reasonable?" Are we to allow ONLY liberals and progressives to define social change? We may as well expect to legalize any perversion or vice in that case. I mean, there are animal brothels in Europe.

I'm hearing a Bill Murray character in my mind. Choas and re-embracing pagan sexual practices is not progress. Although abortion is extremely close to Molech worship.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

It's easy to see why Spong and the liberal and progressive theologians (Gay theology too) rejects the way the Bible was written:


Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, and will deceive many.

You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.
"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. The Day and Hour Unknown

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.


"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


"Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!

Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.

 

[cantata]

As in "a man marrying a man"? When has that EVERY been "ordinary" or "reasonable?"

Welcome to the new millennium.

What is unreasonable or abnormal about wanting to marry the person you love?

Further - does one unreasonable, abnormal desire make it impossible for someone to be reasonable and ordinary with regard to the rest of their life?

Are we to allow ONLY liberals and progressives to define social change?

Well, yes. Conservatism = keeping things the same (or regressing), so conservatives are hardly going to push for social change (unless we're talking about changing back to dark age ethics), are they? Change is required for progress.

We may as well expect to legalize any perversion or vice in that case. I mean, there are animal brothels in Europe.

"Wah, wah, wah. I don't like what some people want to do with their genitals." No one's going to force you to stick it in a man/goat/Fleshlight.

I'm hearing a Bill Murray character in my mind. Choas and re-embracing pagan sexual practices is not progress. Although abortion is extremely close to Molech worship.

How mysterious. Do try to focus on your point, whatever it is, Polycarp_fan.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

My "interpretation of the Bible comes from the opinions of the Apostles. You know, the guys taughht by Jesus.

Funny. I don't recal any of the people taught by Jesus ever mentioning anything that could remotely be considered homosexuality.

When looking at Greece, the pederasty embraced by the educated elites could also be seen as a factor in Greece "being absorbed" by Rome. Nero comes to mind when thinking about the fruit of Rome.

Oh, do PLEASE explain how pederasty was in any way causaly linked to Rome's anexation of Greece? Please? It'll make my night.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

As in "a man marrying a man"? When has that EVERY been "ordinary" or "reasonable?"

In North American Native Society, the most common form of same-sex sexuality seems to center around the figure of the Two-Spirit individual. Such people seem to have been recognized by the majority of tribes, each of which had its particular term for the role. Typically the two-spirit individual was recognized early in life, was given a choice by the parents to follow the path, and if the child accepted the role then the child was raised in the appropriate manner, learning the customs of the gender it had chosen. Two-spirit individuals were commonly shamans and were revered as having powers beyond those of ordinary shamans. Their sexual life would be with the ordinary tribe members of the same sex. Male two-spirit people were prized as wives because of their greater strength and ability to work.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#History

Same-Sex Marriage in History
One of the recurring clichés of the same-sex marriage debate is that the very notion of such a thing is a radical departure from anything entertained before in human history. Nothing, however, could be further from the truth. In many cultures and in many eras, the issue has emerged-and the themes of the arguments are quirkily similar. Same-sex love, as Plato's Symposium shows, is as ancient as human love, and the question of how it is recognized and understood has bedeviled every human civilization. In most, it has never taken the form of the modern institution of marriage, but in some, surprisingly, it has. In seventeenth-century China and nineteenth-century Africa, for example, the institution seems identical to opposite-sex marriage. In other cultures (see the debate between Brent Shaw and Ralph Hexter) the meaning of same-sex unions remains opaque and complex. In Native American society, marriage between two men was commonplace, but its similarity to contemporary lesbian and gay marriages is far from evident. And today in a number of foreign countries, laws extending civil marriage to gay and lesbian couples have been or will soon be enacted. Judge for yourself what this might mean for our current convulsion. One thing emerges clearly: this issue is not a modern invention. The need to balance human dignity and social norms is as old as civilization itself. Although much of the past history of this debate has been buried until recently, it has begun to emerge again with all the passion that now crackles through modern Western culture. (article continues) http://www.enotalone.com/article/4358.html

lots of places, looks like

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Are we to allow ONLY liberals and progressives to define social change?

Who else can you think of advocating social CHANGE?

 

[TheManeki]

It's easy to see why Spong and the liberal and progressive theologians (Gay theology too) rejects the way the Bible was written:


Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, and will deceive many.

You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.
"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. The Day and Hour Unknown

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.


"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


"Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!

Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.

Problem is, this is essentially just a case of the pot calling the kettle black. FP calsl liberal/progressive Christians heretics, and they could call him the same, frequently using the same Biblical passages against him. It proves nothing, except that PF enjoys speechifying.

This is why I like to look to real life for a solution on the morality of homosexuality. Until someone shows me evidence that two married homosexuals are at a higher risk of physical harm (discounting societal persecution) than two married heterosexuals, then God forbidding gay marriage makes about as much sense as God forbidding people from wearing the color yellow. And I don't believe in an arbitrary God.

 

[Spherical Time]

Stepping away. Just don't lump me in with a group - I don't want to use the big letters.

As best I can recall, particular sexual orientation wasn't a big feature in my professor's theory. It had more to do with the societies as a whole becoming more hedonistic and focused upon sensual pleasures to the detriment of the family.

Just from what I've observed, gay people have a pretty good sense of family and community. Better than most straight people in fact.

If I had to point to something as the probable cause of America's downfall I would point to two things: First, the suburb and spreading culture that has caused people to lose touch with their local communities. Second, the government's hands off approach to social policy and creeping psuedo libertarianism. We're not supposed to be completely self-sufficient. Human culture has never worked like that, and we need to do better at taking care of our community.

 

[BigBadWlf]

As in "a man marrying a man"? When has that EVERY been "ordinary" or "reasonable?" Are we to allow ONLY liberals and progressives to define social change? We may as well expect to legalize any perversion or vice in that case. I mean, there are animal brothels in Europe.

I'm hearing a Bill Murray character in my mind. Choas and re-embracing pagan sexual practices is not progress. Although abortion is extremely close to Molech worship.

The same argument was tired in 1968 when laws against interracial marriage. those supporting such laws were motivated solely by bigotry. Today in the fight for equality the arguments haven’t changed and neither has the motivation.The conservative way was tired in Nazi Germany and the end result were millions of people murdered in death camps

 

[BigBadWlf]

It's easy to see why Spong and the liberal and progressive theologians (Gay theology too) rejects the way the Bible was written:

"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." Matthew 22:36-40

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:34-35


Oh wait – this is why you reject the bible. Sorry. My bad

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Welcome to the new millennium.

Turning out just as the prophets described I see.

What is unreasonable or abnormal about wanting to marry the person you love?

Nothing up to the nuptials. Then reason takes over to the unreasonableness of same-gender "couplings." According to anatomy, it is quite abnormal. (Don't even need my Bible for that one.)

Further - does one unreasonable, abnormal desire make it impossible for someone to be reasonable and ordinary with regard to the rest of their life?

I'll eat fifty twinkies a day and find out. I LOVE twinkies. AND I AM NOT TALKING GAY SLANG. I mean the Hostess cake.

Well, yes. Conservatism = keeping things the same (or regressing),

Is that what you were taught in College by your liberal/progressive marxist atheist professors.

How come abortion and gay sex is far more like ancient pagan worship practices? Hardly progreesive going back to Molech worship.

so conservatives are hardly going to push for social change (unless we're talking about changing back to dark age ethics), are they? Change is required for progress.

"Conservatives" push for a decent and responsible and honest society. Free of perversions and immorality becoming civil rights. Conservatives it's been shown, give more of their money to charities than liberals, who take tax dollars and give little else back.

Liberals think rights means porn as free speech and sexual perversions and promiscuity should be taught by kids. Owing to the role models held up by liberals and progressives I can see why their minds are tainted like that. Elton John and Madonna are hardly anyone that a good person should follow.

"Wah, wah, wah. I don't like what some people want to do with their genitals." No one's going to force you to stick it in a man/goat/Fleshlight.

Is the fleshlight usage also sought by a congenital sexual orientation? Are we expecting masturbation-marriage next? Sure would be an easy ring ceremony.

How mysterious. Do try to focus on your point, whatever it is, Polycarp_fan.

MY POINT?

That the Bible has no gay promoting scripture anywhere. And it does not.

Yet, I am the one the GLBT adherants scream is a liar.

 

[WhatThe]

How come abortion and gay sex is far more like ancient pagan worship practices? Hardly progreesive going back to Molech worship.

Ancient Pagan sex rituals were as much heterosexual as they were homosexual (for example, the Hieros Gamos). And i fail to see how such rituals are comparable to a committed relationship or marriage between a same sex couple.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Ancient Pagan sex rituals were as much heterosexual as they were homosexual (for example, the Hieros Gamos).

More paganism huh?

This thread is about what the people of the Law (Torah), the Writings and the Prophets were supposed to do. The Old Testament is called the Tankh. As in the New Testament pagan practices were innapropriate.

And i fail to see how such rituals are comparable to a committed relationship or marriage between a same sex couple.

A date on the calendar doesn't change what is appropriate and what isn't appropriate for believers to engage in. Although believers don't see sin as a congenital condition that excuses sinning, just because you're born that way. That seems exclusively the domain of modern-day social/religious liberal and gay pundits.

I agree with you that there may indeed be actual record of same-gender unions supported and/or promoted (as is literally the case with pagan rites) by and in pagan, non-believing peoples. Notice what God said to the Israelites about that.

ALL of the people (all the Israelites, not just the Priestly class) were not to do the detestable acts of the peoples outside of Israel. It's not an easy request to follow, as reading the Bible without altering or ignoring it shows. Even some of the Israelites went after the ways of the nations around them. Though, they were given no excuse for what they did and why they did it. They were called to repentance.

 

[WhatThe]

More paganism huh?

Ah, excuse me? You're the one who bought up paganism. I was pointing out that pagan rituals have nothing to do with the same-sex relationships of today, a point which you have ignored.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Ah, excuse me? You're the one who bought up paganism. I was pointing out that pagan rituals have nothing to do with the same-sex relationships of today, a point which you have ignored.

See the OP?

Obviously I haven't ignored the paganism of same-gender sex acts. "It is what it is."

Have you posted even ONE gay supporting scripture? From the Bible that is.

Your spin tactics are showing who is ignoring the subject.

 

[WhatThe]

See the OP?

Obviously I haven't ignored the paganism of same-gender sex acts. "It is what it is."

Have you posted even ONE gay supporting scripture? From the Bible that is.

Your spin tactics are showing who is ignoring the subject.

Well see, here's the thing.
I can tell you to go have a look at the topics on www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.com , but you will only respond with "no, that's wrong, it's pathetic" so what's the point?
Secondly, who should i have to find gay affirming scriptures? Not everyone follows the teachings of the bible, so what it says doesn't matter unless you are Christian.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Ah, excuse me? You're the one who bought up paganism. I was pointing out that pagan rituals have nothing to do with the same-sex relationships of today, a point which you have ignored.

One more thing, YOU actually detailed the real paganism and sex are reality. Gay and straight if I recall. Let me see . . . yup.

The detestable practices that God, through His prophets, TOLD the people NOT to engage in.

Ever thought about the Ten Commandments?

One of them is about honoring your "father and your mother."

Shall we go on a longer tour of the Bible and see where it takes us on the issue of same-gender sexual "unions"????

We can go all the way to Revelation, and nothing will change about that. NOT one mention of it. And every mention of marriage is a man and a woman. Even, a man and women. But never same-gender sexual (or political) unions.

If you have a scripture, please . . . the OP?

 

[WhatThe]

One more thing, YOU actually detailed the real paganism and sex are reality. Gay and straight if I recall. Let me see . . . yup.

No... i simply pointed out that paganistic sex rituals actually included both heterosexual and homosexual acts.

And i have no idea if there are some people who still practice this rituals, but there probable are.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Well see, here's the thing.
I can tell you to go have a look at the topics on www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.com , but you will only respond with "no, that's wrong, it's pathetic" so what's the point?

I will read the site. I have been at Soulforce and other gay promoting places and still, not one person has ever shown a scripture approving, condoning, supporting or promoting gay sex or gay marriage "for Christians." And, I use the word pitiful, not pathetic.

And watch this . . .

Secondly, who should i have to find gay affirming scriptures?

Geez, I don't know. How about honesty and integrity? Oh, and truth.

Not everyone follows the teachings of the bible, so what it says doesn't matter unless you are Christian.

Like I've written, I agree with your pagan references.

So does the Biblical witness.

And I agree with the Biblical witness.