Gay theology (i.e. Mel White, Soulforce) why even try?

[TheManeki]

Carry on this nonsense and Christianity will be relegated to an embarrassing footnote in history. People simply know better in this day and age.

Great point. Fundamentalists have jumped on the anti-gay bandwagon in an attempt to stay relevant, but instead of becoming more relevant in society they are actually marginalizing Christianity.

 

[Beanieboy]

In Buddhism, that's called Karma.
In Christianity, it is "you reap what you so."

 

[BigBadWlf]

Teaching liitle children to engage in gay sex is not protecting them. It is recruitment. No matter the frosting on the GLBT agenda, it boils down to encouraging children to accept gay life. Christians have opposed this kind of teaching. Jesus preached about leading children into sin is a greater sin.

You do the math.

You’ve told this whopper before. Repeating false statements don’t miraculously make them true.


As for recruitment. Teaching little children that it is all right to hate members of minorities is a truly sick form of recruitment.

Spoken like a slave owning slave-rapist. Jefferson did what all anti-Christians do, he altered the Bible. This guy literally altered the Bible. And we won't even get into his being a murderous traitor to England. Jefferson is no hero of mine.




"The purest religion ever preached?" I don't have to wonder which one he referenced. It was the one he altered for his own personal reasons.



For an alledged mass adulterer this isn't a bad opinion. I'm no fan of European influence on Christian truth.

[quote"The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly." --Thomas Jefferson

Hitler and Stalin had the same mindset. Tens of millions of dead people can attest to the morality of atheism. How many slaves did Jefferson own?



A "just government?" I wonder what the native Americans and African slaves think of the legacy of Madison and Jefferson's little experiment?



Of course the abolitionists made this kiind of opinion stupid. But, then again, Jefferson owned slaves for a very long time. Read Abraham Lincoln's idea of "what" freed the slaves in his Second Inaugural Address.



Not a bad position Mr Madison. Look at what the GLBT community is doing with government and religion. There should be a seperation of sexuality and state "interpretation" of the constitution as well.

I wonder how many British people were killed by the founders of the US? Why is it that a new country usually rises on the corpses of the slain? So much for the Enlightenment enlightening the founders. Base and typical most actions and behaviors for the most part.

These are also the man you just claimed “used religion in many places in the founding of this nation”

 

[Polycarp_fan]

WHAT?!? How about some honesty? Who wants to teach kids to engage in gay sex?

Massresistance has the photos.

It boils down to you guys attempting to teach something to children that appears to be untrue.

Yet, what is happening in Massachusetts is the teaching of gay sex to children for them to enegage in. Americans For Truth has photos and pamphlets too that shows this.

Something you cannot demonstrate. Something that will lead kids to discriminate for no good reason.

There are good reasons for a child not to enegae in gay sex. There are good reasons for the parents of children to not want gay groups teaching their children about the gay life.

In short it leads you to teach kids a lie.

Just teach anatomy, physiology and biology truthfully and leave the sexual perversions out of classrooms.

Why should anyone allow you to teach their kids something so obviously morally and intellectually flawed?

The design of the human body whether by evolution or the Lord God shows what is morally and intellectually flawed about the gay agenda.

I disagree, there's a strong anti-lying ethic in Christianity (at least the Christianity I was raised with) and it's impossible to support the anti-gay agenda and remain honest. It's simply not a Christian endeavour, in my opinion.

It is impossible to promote gay life from the pages of the Bible. You need to go to pagan religions and humanism for that. That is the truth.

The anti-gay agenda is harmful to our children and to society and is characterised by dishonesty and base prejudice wherever it raises it's primitive ugly head.

Sounds like a call to recruitment.

It appears to be neither Christian nor good, moral or proper.

There is no such thing as Christian gay life presented anywhere "in" the pages of the Bible except for pagan practices. That is the truth. Even in gay theology homosexuality dwells withing pagan religion.

[quoteCarry on this nonsense and Christianity will be relegated to an embarrassing footnote in history. People simply know better in this day and age.[/quote]

That sounds like a call to recruitment into the gay life. Churches are splitting over gay sex being forced into their Church bodies (no pun intended) and the larger numbers of Christians are leaving the gay theologians. Your threatening little rant is not borne out by reality. We Christians will be just fine without GLBT culture permeating our Churches and congregations.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

You’ve told this whopper before. Repeating false statements don’t miraculously make them true.

Then try presenting ANY Biblical text that opnly promotes gay life for the believer? How about a little honest debate instead of spin?

As for recruitment. Teaching little children that it is all right to hate members of minorities is a truly sick form of recruitment.

That once again uses kindergarten comeback. Christians do not think preaching that sin should be repented of is hateful. Only evil people think that. I'm just being honest. Avoiding homosexuality and those that promote it is neither hate nor a bad teaching.

These are also the man you just claimed “used religion in many places in the founding of this nation”

You do know that there were more people than just Jefferson, Franklin and Madison in the whole American revolution thing don't you?

And, how about debating the "OP" huh? Present your rationalization of David and Jonathan being gay lovers, Ruth and Naomi being lesbian lovers, and gay theologians presenting a Roman sex-slave owner of a young boy, as being a good role model? My position is that gay theology is repugnant to say the least, in keeping with being honest about Biblical truth.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

LIke Cantata said, everyone has broken commandments - And you even just said: "only G-D is good". So, once again, why do you insist on portraying homosexuals as being more evil than any other group of people?

To an atheist, they do not break commandments given from something/someone that doesn't exist. To a gay person, they are going to force their interpretation onto and into the Church no matter what. It's is shocking. But not unexpected seeing the source of their influence.

 

[WatersMoon110]

To an atheist, they do not break commandments given from something/someone that doesn't exist. To a gay person, they are going to force their interpretation onto and into the Church no matter what. It's is shocking. But not unexpected seeing the source of their influence.

What gay people are forcing anything on your Church?

There are plenty of Christians that believe things you don't agree with. But you seem to only choose to focus on a very select few. You seem to be basically finding the worst or the most outlandish people you can, then claiming that everyone who disagrees with you agrees with those people.

The truth is, very few people would argue that there a positive portrayals of homosexuals in the Bible. Some people would make the case that many of the verses used to condemn homosexuality have alternative interpretations that makes them not apply to homosexuality at all. Some people would say that homosexuality is a sin, but no worse than any other sin. And many people feel that there isn't anything wrong with being homosexual, bisexual, or heterosexual; no matter what the Bible says on the issue.

 

[ReverendDG]

Then try presenting ANY Biblical text that opnly promotes gay life for the believer? How about a little honest debate instead of spin?



That once again uses kindergarten comeback. Christians do not think preaching that sin should be repented of is hateful. Only evil people think that. I'm just being honest. Avoiding homosexuality and those that promote it is neither hate nor a bad teaching.

when you can show there is a "gay lifestyle" maybe we can see if the bible talks about it

You do know that there were more people than just Jefferson, Franklin and Madison in the whole American revolution thing don't you?

well yes, but they represented everyone pretty well.

And, how about debating the "OP" huh? Present your rationalization of David and Jonathan being gay lovers, Ruth and Naomi being lesbian lovers, and gay theologians presenting a Roman sex-slave owner of a young boy, as being a good role model? My position is that gay theology is repugnant to say the least, in keeping with being honest about Biblical truth.

"honest about biblical truth"? in what way?
from my understanding the "gay" theology cites hebrew and greek, what do you cite? i have a feeling the KJV or some other pet translation

while i'm skeptical of whether the theologists or groups saying david and jonathan are gay, i don't think your rejection is based on anything even remotely logical or rational

 

[ReverendDG]

To an atheist, they do not break commandments given from something/someone that doesn't exist. To a gay person, they are going to force their interpretation onto and into the Church no matter what. It's is shocking. But not unexpected seeing the source of their influence.

i think most gay people could care less what churches think, though there are some gay people that are so brainwashed that they think they have to have something to do with with a church that despises them.
i feel sorry for them.

this is some paranoid rant PF, you think gay people are out to get you? they could care less, unless you push them out from getting rights they deserve..

isn't it kind of a slippery slope to claim that if gay people get the right to marry they will come after churches?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Great point. Fundamentalists have jumped on the anti-gay bandwagon in an attempt to stay relevant, but instead of becoming more relevant in society they are actually marginalizing Christianity.

I'm a life long Christian, and seriously, some of the fundamentalists I've met in this forum have been a greater threat to my faith than ANY OTHER crisis of faith I've ever had in the past

 

[TheManeki]

Then try presenting ANY Biblical text that opnly promotes gay life for the believer? How about a little honest debate instead of spin?

If you honestly believed that anything not expressly promoted by the Bible was wrong, you'd not be using a computer, modern medical services, or anything else more recent than the 1st century AD. Yet here you are, your very presence nullifying your own argument.

 

[uberd00b]

I'd like to see these photos of people "teaching children to engage in gay sex", It sounds to me more like Christians simply bearing false witness about a safe sex class. I know you guys find it hard to be honest on this subject but I'm prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt. So;

Do you have a link please?

There are good reasons for a child not to engage in any sex there's no need for you to focus purely on one aspect of sex. Unfortunately some will have sex and if they do it's best that it is an informed choice they make. That's what the safe sex classes are for. The puritanical attitude that is a legacy of the religious though only serves to focus peoples attention on sex. A more grown up attitude would be beneficial.

Just teach anatomy, physiology and biology truthfully and leave the sexual perversions out of classrooms.

That's what people are trying to do, but some Christians seem to want their weird moral perversion taught as fact. This is what will drive Christianity to ruin, the Christian attitude is parochial and quite obviously flawed and most of society can see it.

It's possible you're right about the Bible, it's also possible your translation is flawed, but the important matter is that the Bible is not important. What is important is doing the right thing. I'm of the opinion that God would have us do the right thing (and also that Bible idolatry is a sin). There must be a reason to declare something immoral and yet people are unable to find a single solid reason that being gay is immoral. (Because it is written, it not a good reason because it leads to the questions "why was it written?").

The anti-gay agenda is harmful to our children and to society and is characterised by dishonesty and base prejudice wherever it raises it's primitive ugly head.

Sounds like a call to recruitment.

How?

Carry on this nonsense and Christianity will be relegated to an embarrassing footnote in history. People simply know better in this day and age.

That sounds like a call to recruitment into the gay life.

No, it doesn't.

Churches are splitting over gay sex being forced into their Church bodies (no pun intended) and the larger numbers of Christians are leaving the gay theologians. Your threatening little rant is not borne out by reality. We Christians will be just fine without GLBT culture permeating our Churches and congregations.

Not really, you're morally, ethically and intellectually in the wrong, and everybody can see it.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Then try presenting ANY Biblical text that opnly promotes gay life for the believer? How about a little honest debate instead of spin?

That won’t change the lies you tell into truth

That once again uses kindergarten comeback. Christians do not think preaching that sin should be repented of is hateful. Only evil people think that. I'm just being honest. Avoiding homosexuality and those that promote it is neither hate nor a bad teaching.

honest???


Sort of like saying that “avoiding” the topic of non-whites as human beings (how else do you teach children that racism is OK?) is somehow not based on hatred

You do know that there were more people than just Jefferson, Franklin and Madison in the whole American revolution thing don't you?

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."
John Adams -- Treaty of Tripoli (1797) carried unanimously by the Senate

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." ---James Madison (the father of the Constiution)

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
-- Thomas Paine


“The civil government ... functions with complete success ... by the total separation of the Church from the State.”--- James Madison

If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.
-- George Washington

"t is contrary to the principles of reason and justice that any should be compelled to contribute to the maintenance of a church with which their consciences will not permit them to join, and from which they can derive no benefit; for remedy whereof, and that equal liberty as well religious as civil, may be universally extended to all the good people of this commonwealth." George Mason Virginia Declaration of Rights, 1776


"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams

"I have generally been dominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian, except mere infant baptism makes me one; and as to being a Deist, I know not strictly speaking, whether I am one or not." ---Ethan Allen

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." --- Thomas Paine

"Let it simply be asked, where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion." ---George Washington
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." –James Madison


"The senators and representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." The United States Constitution Article VI, Clause 3.

And, how about debating the "OP" huh? Present your rationalization of David and Jonathan being gay lovers, Ruth and Naomi being lesbian lovers, and gay theologians presenting a Roman sex-slave owner of a young boy, as being a good role model? My position is that gay theology is repugnant to say the least, in keeping with being honest about Biblical truth.

Your attempt to misuse Christianity as a means of justifying your own petty bigotry is what is repugnant

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

One thing that strikes me so interesting about the OP is that it is written by a self-proclaimed Christian, but the OP boils down to: I believe that homosexuality is wrong, so why should they even try to justify it with the bible?

In other words, if you are gay, why come to Christ? It implies that you can't be gay and Christian (although such exist), and basically ask why you should even try. It suggests that one needs to be either homosexual or Christian (does that mean being heterosexual makes you Christian?), and therefore, makes gays, in frustration, finally say, "Fine. You win. I'm not a Christian, nor do I want anything to do with your religion."

It pushes people away.

If one considers that homosexuality is a sin for a moment, it still doesn't solve anything. Do they say that you can no be single and sexually activce and heterosexual AND a Christian? That you cannot be a Christian and get drunk? That you cannot be Christian and get divorced and remarried?

Does Christ even ask that one first change, and then become Christian? Or is Christ and the HS supposed to change you, and help you to sin no more?

But for gays, there is a call to change themselves first, in which case, they don't need Jesus at all.

Either way, it makes no sense.

That's it exactly, BB - my understanding, based upon my reading of the Bible and my own experiences during the last year, is that we first believe then as we read Scripture, pray and develop a closer relationship with God we find that we are changing.

For all who believe, or will believe, Christ died for you while you were yet in your sins. You do not come clean before you come to Christ - you come to Christ as you are and He washes you clean. It's both instantaneous and a process. Justification (you are now righteous before God, based upon Christ's payment for your sin) and sanctification (becoming more like Christ as you increase in knowledge of Scripture and its application and the Holy Spirit works in your life).

I'm not a bigot or a racist (I thought I better throw that out there before that guy who got going on SoF's thread comes back for another round). I'm also not a theologian, so please don't beat me up from the other side, either.

I personally believe that homosexuality is a sin, based upon what I have read in Scripture (not what I've read on this site, btw). I also believe that adultery, deceit, hatred, gossip, and many, many other things on a list too long to include, are also sins. I don't believe that any one sin is worse than another. I don't think any gay person commits a sin worse than anything I've ever done, or likely will do.

God loves you as you are. He loves me as I am. I love you as you are (in a Christian way you understand - don't want to totally creep you out ). That is not to say that He doesn't want us to change. But still, He loves us.

And my own experience has been that He makes the changes. I still sin, but it's occasional rather than the lifestyle I was leading that was not at all compatible with what I read in the Bible. This change did not occur overnight - I was still fairly well entrenched in a worldly lifestyle for many months after I first believed. It happened gradually, and only after I began to really delve into the Scriptures more than just every now and then.

And, for anyone who might be curious, I'm not deliberately denying myself and gritting my teeth the whole way - I just don't have the same desires I had before. (Except for that one recurrent problem with trying to curb my tongue - it seems to work independent of my brain at times and is the most frequent agent of my downfall)

I don't think it is my job to point out an unbeliever's sin. I do think that it is my responsibility, given by Christ, to share my belief with others and let them know that there is a Saviour who cares about them.

It is also my responsibility to let my life show my belief. If I know unsaved people who aren't living their lives in accordance with what I read in the Bible, and I then shun them because of that, or accost them and dress them down over it - well, imho, I just really failed at being a Christian myself and I'm supposed to be the one who believes!

From my reading about rebuking people for sin, Christians are to gently admonish and rebuke a brother or sister in Christ, not unbelievers. (note the use of the word GENTLY)

For those who constantly throw out the challenge to prove that God exists - I wish I could produce the evidence that would convince you. I don't have a list of proofs - I just have faith that now exists where for 43 years there was none. And no "rational" explanation for it - sorry. I truly wish I could lay it out logically for you, but it's something that you have to find on your own. All I can do is tell folks the Good News and leave it in God's hands.

As far as the issue of kids being taught about homosexuality - frankly, I don't want my kids learning about homosexual practices in a school sex ed class, but I also don't want them learning about heterosexual practices there either. I don't think that's the school's job - it's mine.

If this post is disjointed and rambling, please accept my apologies beforehand. It's been written in bits and pieces, between interruptions by my kids who always need this, that or the other when mom is trying to do something that doesn't involve them.

 

[Spherical Time]

I have a couple of responses to bits of this long post. First:

For all who believe, or will believe, Christ died for you while you were yet in your sins. You do not come clean before you come to Christ - you come to Christ as you are and He washes you clean. It's both instantaneous and a process. Justification (you are now righteous before God, based upon Christ's payment for your sin) and sanctification (becoming more like Christ as you increase in knowledge of Scripture and its application and the Holy Spirit works in your life).

One of the places where I see a breakdown between people discussing this issue is at what time you are washed clean of your sins by Christ.

Many people here at CF believe that this cleansing takes place at the moment that you accept Christ. Thus, they consider themselves already free of sin, and they think that since homosexuality is a sin if gay people were really saved that they would be free of the temptation to sin.

If the moment of salvation was at another time, say two thousand years ago or at the moment that you die when you come before God for judgment, then a person's current tendency to sin is not something that they should already be free from.

Some Christian homosexuals that I've met believe that homosexuality is a sin, but that part of their sin is that they cannot necessarily deny their feelings or live in celibacy. Thus, one of the things that they ask for forgiveness for is their lack of ability to live a sinless life in this world.

And my own experience has been that He makes the changes. I still sin, but it's occasional rather than the lifestyle I was leading that was not at all compatible with what I read in the Bible. This change did not occur overnight - I was still fairly well entrenched in a worldly lifestyle for many months after I first believed. It happened gradually, and only after I began to really delve into the Scriptures more than just every now and then.

And, for anyone who might be curious, I'm not deliberately denying myself and gritting my teeth the whole way - I just don't have the same desires I had before. (Except for that one recurrent problem with trying to curb my tongue - it seems to work independent of my brain at times and is the most frequent agent of my downfall)

Just including this section as relevant material to my previous point.

As far as the issue of kids being taught about homosexuality - frankly, I don't want my kids learning about homosexual practices in a school sex ed class, but I also don't want them learning about heterosexual practices there either. I don't think that's the school's job - it's mine.

Assuming that you do teach your children about sex early enough for it to make a difference in their lives, would you include a section on the practice of homosexuality and safe homosexual sex?

If you wouldn't, would you understand why some parents wouldn't want to teach their children about any sex at all? Do you understand why lack of sex education is a bad thing?

 

[Polycarp_fan]

If you honestly believed that anything not expressly promoted by the Bible was wrong, you'd not be using a computer, modern medical services, or anything else more recent than the 1st century AD. Yet here you are, your very presence nullifying your own argument.

Care to offer any gay supporting scriptures please? That is the subject of this thread.

But anyway . . .:

I am contending for the faith, delivered only once to the saints. The apostles and disciples would have used a computer if they were around in the days of Roman rule. They could have just went from person to person "telling" their story about Jesus, but they found it necessary to HAVE TO "write" it down. And, I always thought that writing was not in any violation of Biblical morality well, unless . . .

I also have used all of my body parts in their proper design. I am not typing with my esophagus. Though I used my throat for what it was designed for earlier in the day at dinner.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

That won’t change the lies you tell into truth



honest???

Please point out where I have lied about the scripture that gay theology presents a "gayified?" (I can play at neologiam too.)

Care to show us ANY scriptures that promote what we have come to know as "homosexuality?"

Sort of like saying that “avoiding” the topic of non-whites as human beings (how else do you teach children that racism is OK?) is somehow not based on hatred

Please sow me in the Bible where Christians (or Israelites) are to think of non-whites as not human? Or, to avoid the topic of non-whites? Whatever the heck you sentence even means. (??????)

Hopefully you have been shown that the Israelites (Jesus and His crew) were not Europeans. I have a very strong opinion about European influenced "Christianity."

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. The

United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."
John Adams -- Treaty of Tripoli (1797) carried unanimously by the Senate

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." ---James Madison (the father of the Constiution)

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
-- Thomas Paine


“The civil government ... functions with complete success ... by the total separation of the Church from the State.”--- James Madison

If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.
-- George Washington

"t is contrary to the principles of reason and justice that any should be compelled to contribute to the maintenance of a church with which their consciences will not permit them to join, and from which they can derive no benefit; for remedy whereof, and that equal liberty as well religious as civil, may be universally extended to all the good people of this commonwealth." George Mason Virginia Declaration of Rights, 1776


"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams

"I have generally been dominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian, except mere infant baptism makes me one; and as to being a Deist, I know not strictly speaking, whether I am one or not." ---Ethan Allen

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."--- Thomas Paine

"Let it simply be asked, where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion." ---George Washington
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." –James Madison


"The senators and representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." The United States Constitution Article VI, Clause 3.

Strange that all of these supposed anti-Christians were so apt to pray before meetings. And of course would have picked who they did as their first president. Washington was a Deist I 'm thinking, was he not? Nice Deists's are no problem to Christians.

Forgetting about these guys?

And I hoe you don;t think I have a problem with sepration of Church and State. That is why we need to get GLBT groups out of public schools. They cross too many religious lines.






Here are some of the Signers of the Constitution who had pretty strong Christian convictions:

• Abraham Baldwin - Chaplain in the American Revolution
• John Dickinson - From his will: "To my Creator I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity."
• Gunning Bedford - Funeral oration on the death of Washington: "Now to the triune God, The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, be ascribed all honor and dominion, forevermore."
• James Wilson - "Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority for that law which is divine...far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other." - from The Works of the Honorable James Wilson, Bird Wilson, editor (Philadelphia: Lorenzo Press, 1804)
• Jacob Broom - Writing to his son: "[D]on't forget to be a Christian. I have said much to you on this head and I hope an indelible impression is made. "
• Roger Sherman (signer of all 4 of our founding documents). When asked by his church, White Haven Congregational, to help revise the wording of their creed: "I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance, equal in power and glory. That the Scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him."
• Alexander Hamilton - Proposed formation of the Christian Constitutional Society to spread Christian government around the world. After the Constitutional Convention of 1787, he stated: "For my own part, I sincerely esteem it a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." - from Diffine, D.P., One Nation Under God - How Close a Separation?
• Rufus King - Selected as manager of the American Bible Society. In a speech made before the Senate at the time Missouri was petitioning for statehood, he said: "I hold that all laws or compacts imposing any such condition [as involuntary servitude] upon any human being are absolutely void because contrary to the law of nature, which is the law of God."
• John Langdon - Vice President of the American Bible Society
• James McHenry - President of the first Bible Society in Baltimore. In soliciting funds for distribution of Bibles, he wrote: "...Consider also, the rich do not possess aught more precious than their Bible, and that the poor cnnot be presented by the rich with anything of greater value."
• Clarence Cotesworth Pinckney - President of the Charleston Bible Society; Vice President of the American Bible Society
• Gouverneur Morris - "[T]he most important of all lessons [from the Scriptures] is the denunciation of ruin to every State that rejects the precepts of religion" - from Collections of the New York Historical Society for the Year 1821 (NY: E. Bliss and E. White, 1821) pp. 32,34, from "An Inaugural Discourse Delivered Before the New York Historical Society by the Honorable Gouverneur Morris, (President,) 4th September, 1816."
• John Witherspoon - "hun, as a contagious pestilence,... those especially whom you perceive to be infected with the principles of infidelity or [who are] enemies to the power of religion" - from Witherspoon, Works, VI:13, from "An Address to the Senior Class at Princeton College," Sept. 23, 1775.
  [*]Richard Bassett - Participated in writing the Constitution of Delaware, which states: "Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust... shall... make and subscribe the following declaration, to wit: 'I, ____, do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, an din the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration.'"
  [*]David Brearly - A warden of St. Michael's Church, a compiler of the Protestant Episcopal Prayer Book, and a delegate to the Episcopal General Convention in 1786.
  [*]Benjamin Franklin - "It is the duty of mankind on all suitable occasions to acknowledge their dependence on the Divine Being... [that] Almighty God would mercifully interpose and still the rage of war among the nations... [and that] He would take this province under His protection, confound the designs and defeat the attempts of its enemies, and unite our hearts and strengthen our hands in every undertaking that may be for the public good, and for our defense and security in this time of dangers."
  [*]William Samuel Johnson - Speaking as President of Columbia University to the first graduating class after the Revolutionary War: "Remember, too, that you are the redeemed of the Lord, that you are bought with a price, even the inestimable price of the precious blood of the Son of God."
  [*]William Livingston: "I believe the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, without any foreign comments or human explanations... I believe that he who feareth God and worketh righteousness will be accepted of Him..."
  
  [*]

  Your attempt to misuse Christianity as a means of justifying your own petty bigotry is what is repugnant

As oppsed to using it to recruit people into the GLBT community and its new wave of gay theology trying to subvert Christian life? I'm waiting for the neolgiams on that.

If you'll notice, I have NOT ALTERED ANY scriptures. That would be lying to do that. That's also not something that the Apostles supported.

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

Assuming that you do teach your children about sex early enough for it to make a difference in their lives, would you include a section on the practice of homosexuality and safe homosexual sex?

If you wouldn't, would you understand why some parents wouldn't want to teach their children about any sex at all? Do you understand why lack of sex education is a bad thing?

I have 4 children, ages 24, 14, 11, and 3 so I've gone through the whole range of (imo) age-appropriate sex ed. Teaching starts early, beginning with proper body part names, etc. I try to keep it age-appropriate (it really depends upon the particular child and their maturation rate as well) so there are no surprises.

I haven't specifically discussed "homosexual" sex, but the specific practices I think you are referring to have been discussed, as they are not limited solely to homosexuals and my children will certainly learn of them elsewhere if they don't hear about it from me.

I do know that there are many, many parents who are uncomfortable discussing sex with their children. I'm one of them, but I do it anyway because it is information they need to have. It is my hope that they will choose to wait until they are grown & married to become sexually active, but if they don't I want them to have knowledge that can keep them safe from harm (if put to use).

Is it even possible now to raise a child (who isn't totally isolated from other kids) who has no knowledge of sex ed, even if you never told them a thing? There is just so much information available now, that it seems unlikely that they wouldn't get the real skinny from someone.

 

[Spherical Time]

I have 4 children, ages 24, 14, 11, and 3 so I've gone through the whole range of (imo) age-appropriate sex ed. Teaching starts early, beginning with proper body part names, etc. I try to keep it age-appropriate (it really depends upon the particular child and their maturation rate as well) so there are no surprises.

I haven't specifically discussed "homosexual" sex, but the specific practices I think you are referring to have been discussed, as they are not limited solely to homosexuals and my children will certainly learn of them elsewhere if they don't hear about it from me.

I do know that there are many, many parents who are uncomfortable discussing sex with their children. I'm one of them, but I do it anyway because it is information they need to have. It is my hope that they will choose to wait until they are grown & married to become sexually active, but if they don't I want them to have knowledge that can keep them safe from harm (if put to use).

Thanks for the answer. I was just curious.

Is it even possible now to raise a child (who isn't totally isolated from other kids) who has no knowledge of sex ed, even if you never told them a thing? There is just so much information available now, that it seems unlikely that they wouldn't get the real skinny from someone.

It is possible. Especially when some people tell kids that science can't be trusted, that public school teachers lie to them, and that sex is bad and shouldn't be contemplated.

Willful ignorance is a mighty thing and it should never be underestimated.

 

[morningstar2651]

You didn't realize that is written for a gay audience...did you? It's not teaching anyone to be gay. It assumes that they already are gay.

Also, sorry to burst your bubble, but marriage has traditionally been polygamous and arranged.

Genesis 4:19
Genesis 16:1-4
Genesis 25:6
Genesis 26:34
Genesis 31:17
Exodus 21:10
Deuteronomy 21:15
Judges 8:30
1 Samuel 1:1-2
2 Samuel 12:7-8
1 Kings 11:2-3
1 Chronicles 4:5
2 Chronicles 11:21
2 Chronicles 13:21
2 Chronicles 24:3
Matthew 25:1