Where are we going?

[nikolayalexandroff]

anyhoo, i see no reason why it wont get to this.

What he said. I'd say, it's inevitable. And not in 10 years, but sooner probably.

 

[Julina]

Because.....?

becasue you've already made it clear about how you feel about homosexuals. so why keep focusing on it?

 

[Julina]

What he said. I'd say, it's inevitable. And not in 10 years, but sooner probably.

no, it won't happen.

 

[rusmeister]

becasue you've already made it clear about how you feel about homosexuals. so why keep focusing on it?

No, Julina. I've made it clear how the Orthodox Church feels about homosexuals. It is not my personal opinion. On the contrary, it is you who hold a personal opinion that contradicts Church teaching. It is unOrthodox to reject Church teaching.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't think you can say it won't happen. People didn't debate on things like the legality of abortion, gay marriage a century ago. I don't think any of the Founding Fathers could have foreseen half of the utter nonsense and sometimes downright vile things that we actually consider debate worthy.

 

[Julina]

No, Julina. I've made it clear how the Orthodox Church feels about homosexuals. It is not my personal opinion. On the contrary, it is you who hold a personal opinion that contradicts Church teaching. It is unOrthodox to reject Church teaching.

i never said that.

 

[rusmeister]

True. It's just a very strong impression I got.

I don't want to seem like I'm swinging a baseball bat at you. I hope I have not crossed the line between proper defense of doctrine and just being offensive. If I have, forgive me!
(I'm not always as careful as I should be, here or in real life.)

 

[Julina]

True. It's just a very strong impression I got.

I don't want to seem like I'm swinging a baseball bat at you. I hope I have not crossed the line between proper defense of doctrine and just being offensive. If I have, forgive me!
(I'm not always as careful as I should be, here or in real life.)

yeah that's understandable. i forgive you. the internet can make things easily misunderstood.
i'm still trying to figure out a few things. i understand how gay marriage can't be supported religiously (i was just at a wedding today actually!) but otherwise i don't think it should be an issue. my gay friends are not Christian probably because they're sick of being told that they're going to hell. or something. but i don't bring that up with them. i don't think being gay is enough to condemn a person to hell, but i'm not God so i wouldn't know. i just leave everything up to Him.

 

[rusmeister]

Well, if your friends perceive that they are being told that they will go to hell because of who they are, something they can't help, it is quite understandable why they do not choose to embrace such a faith.

Only that's not what we believe.

I've posted links - the OCA link is the best, I think, for being short, clear, and to the point. I wonder if your friends have ever heard what WE believe, not what some radical noisy 'fundamentalists' believe. I still get that you are not clear on it. Please read the OCA link, if nothing else. You can't understand what we are trying to say (and will only think you are being beat up on) if you don't.

I'll just post the text here:

On Marriage, Family, Sexuality, and the Sanctity of Life Homosexuality

Created to know God’s divinity and power through creation, human beings have refused to acknowledge God, to honor and thank Him, and to obey his divine teachings. Through their rebellion "they became futile in their thinking and their senseless hearts were darkened" (Romans 1:21). Therefore, as the apostle Paul continues to teach, "God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves…their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error" (Romans 1:26-27).

Homosexual acts, like adulterous and incestuous behavior, are condemned in the law of Moses. Those who do these things, both men and women, are, according to God’s law of the old covenant, to be put to death (Leviticus 18:6-23;20:10-21).

According to the apostle Paul, those engaging in homsexual acts, with fornicators, adulterers, idolaters, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers and robbers, will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Christians come from all these categories of evil doers who have, voluntarily and involuntarily, been caught up in the sin of the world. They are those who through their personal repentance and faith in Christ, their baptism and chrismation, and their participation in Holy Communion, have been "washed…sanctified…and made righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus and in the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Orthodox Baptism and Chrismation Service).

Jesus teaches mercy and forgiveness for all sinners, but the Lord does not justify sin. When the Son of God pronounces divine pardon to those caught in evil he always charges the forgiven sinner to "go and sin no more" (John 8:11).

Convinced of these God-revealed truths, we offer the following affirmations and admonitions for the guidance of the faithful:

Homosexuality is to be approached as the result of humanity’s rebellion against God, and so against its own nature and well-being. It is not to be taken as a way of living and acting for men and women made in God’s image and likeness.

Men and women with homosexual feelings and emotions are to be treated with the understanding, acceptance, love, justice and mercy due to all human beings.

People with homosexual tendencies are to be helped to admit these feelings to themselves and to others who will not reject or harm them. They are to seek assistance in discovering the specific causes of their homosexual orientation, and to work toward overcoming its harmful effects in their lives.

Persons struggling with homosexuality who accept the Orthodox faith and strive to fulfill the Orthodox way of life may be communicants of the Church with everyone else who believes and struggles. Those instructed and counselled in Orthodox Christian doctrine and ascetical life who still want to justify their behavior may not participate in the Church’s sacramental mysteries, since to do so would not help, but harm them.

Assistance is to be given to those who deal with persons of homosexual orientation in order to help them with their thoughts, feelings and actions in regard to homosexuality. Such assistance is especially necessary for parents, relatives and friends of persons with homosexual tendencies and feelings. It is certainly necessary for pastors and church workers.

 

[Shubunkin]

because if marriage was just a religious or a ceremonial thing this whole gay marriage debate wouldn't be going down.

It's not so much a sanction as a recording of marriage. Now that's it's legal for same-sex unions, the churches will be forced to marry them.

 

[Julina]

It's not so much a sanction as a recording of marriage. Now that's it's legal for same-sex unions, the churches will be forced to marry them.

but there's no liturgy for a gay marriage so i don't think that can be possible for the churches to marry them.

 

[Julina]

Well, if your friends perceive that they are being told that they will go to hell because of who they are, something they can't help, it is quite understandable why they do not choose to embrace such a faith.

Only that's not what we believe.

I've posted links - the OCA link is the best, I think, for being short, clear, and to the point. I wonder if your friends have ever heard what WE believe, not what some radical noisy 'fundamentalists' believe. I still get that you are not clear on it. Please read the OCA link, if nothing else. You can't understand what we are trying to say (and will only think you are being beat up on) if you don't.

I'll just post the text here:

ok. i get it a little more. but does the Church want gay people to turn straight? because that can't really happen.

also, i've read articles that argue that the bible really doesn't say anything about homosexuality at all, and that everyone is interpreting these verses the wong way.

 

[jckstraw72]

also, i've read articles that argue that the bible really doesn't say anything about homosexuality at all, and that everyone is interpreting these verses the wong way.

Romans 1 i think it is, is pretty explicit

 

[Julina]

Romans 1 i think it is, is pretty explicit

i think the argument against that is the Letters of Paul (or the whole entire Bible for that matter) say lots of things that no one really listens to today anymore. not that that's a good reason or anything.

 

[rusmeister]

ok. i get it a little more. but does the Church want gay people to turn straight? because that can't really happen.

also, i've read articles that argue that the bible really doesn't say anything about homosexuality at all, and that everyone is interpreting these verses the wong way.

1. No. The Church does not expect that people can change their body chemistry, their sex, or anything outside of their control. We don't expect blind people to 'repent' of their blindness, either. It DOES expect us to accept that there is something seriously wrong with the desires (although experiencing desire is not a sin), and that ACTING on the desires IS a sin, that must be renounced and turned away from.

2. If the Church is right, then there are enemies of the Faith, both bodily and spiritual. Many/most of the bodily ones are quite willing to engage in deception of self and others. Could it not be possible that articles that claim what you say are not true? Since you are clearly willing to spend a little time online on this topic, perhaps you could arrange a little time with your priest, to learn where the Bible does indeed talk about homosexuality (although some of that information is already in the links I posted). It's not secret stuff. But it does require more than merely taking a snippet from the Bible and applying your own interpretation to it. The Church's interpretations take all of Scripture into account in its teachings.

Ultimately, you have to decide who is more authoritative for you - the Orthodox Church, or the world. Me, I'll go with the Church and admit that I'm messed up.

 

[Dorothea]

I don't think it's that far fetched (the OP) because we've seen people who've married or wanted to marry their pets.

I think sex with a minor will become more the "norm" maybe after the pets issue, I'm afraid (it won't be looked upon as as strange as it has now). I see all kinds of things that were right becoming "wrong" and vice versa in this world eventually.

 

[Julina]

I don't think it's that far fetched (the OP) because we've seen people who've married or wanted to marry their pets.

I think sex with a minor will become more the "norm" maybe after the pets issue, I'm afraid (it won't be looked upon as as strange as it has now). I see all kinds of things that were right becoming "wrong" and vice versa in this world eventually.

but then there's the the issue of consent

 

[Lukaris]

but then there's the the issue of consent

Can we prove that "consent" is not predicated by lust though and that whatever concept of "love" attached to it may not be genuine in a Christian understanding? St. Paul states in Romans 1:31: "Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:" (KJV). I am not criticising your post in any way since that is how many of us have been conditioned to perceive in a modern worldly mindset. Nor am I quoting St. Paul to justify a personal judgement of individuals in a narrow proof text of scripture. I am only trying to illustrate 2 principals that seem irreconcilable; one being Christian (St. Paul) & one not (and not intending to render a group of people as "evil" either). Actually I am somewhat pondering as I post (& rushing my thoughts at break time in work).

 

[Barky]

This world has gone completely mad. I would not doubt that such a "marriage" would be legalized sometime in the future.

 

[rusmeister]

This world has gone completely mad. I would not doubt that such a "marriage" would be legalized sometime in the future.

Which is the point of my OP.
If he could, before he took our souls, Satan would have us parodying and violating every one of God's principles for our lives.